Ayre DX-5 bluray player - Page 3

Sorry, I got your moniker mixed up with markrdee who has been giving me a hard time. My fault.

The differences between the Neo and the MkV are huge. One weighs about 20 pounds and the other less than one. One has the motor on the top and the other has the motor on the bottom. One is made from solid slabs of 3/8" steel and the other is made from sheet metal stampings.

This is definitely a case of living off the image that was (justifiably) created. The first two Neos are works of art. Everything else is just a pale shadow. Take a close look at the linked photos and you will see what I am talking about.

The top of the line high dollar player and transports use the VRDS NEO while the new X05 and P05 use the VRDS VMKV. I seen these transports on display at CES last year [first year of the X05 and P05] and I thought they were closer in design and materials. I will have to look at my product data. Again it could be my mistake.

Take a look at the photos on the page I linked before:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...hirez&n=242487

The second photo is the "03" mechanism. Everything in there is solid steel plates except the tray, which is cast magnesium. The "bridge" plate is especially thick as the spindle motor is a direct-drive design (almost like a miniature version of what was in the old direct-drive turntables) that is recessed into that "bridge".

The last photo is of the "Mk 5" mechanism. The only solid metal pieces are the front end cap on the tray and possibly the two blocks that mount the mechanism to the chassis. The tray is plastic. The clamping disc is plastic and stamped steel. The bridge is stamped steel. The spindle motor is in the bottom, just like any CD player. The base is stamped steel.

Just to give you a better idea of the vast gulf between these two designs, the OEM price of the first is $3000. The second is $500. That is a factor of 6x, and there is a reason for that.

So you expect that you would only sell a handful of $15,000 amps? How many $10,000 blu-ray players do you expect to sell?

It seems odd to me that someone would drop $10K on a top of the line blu ray player but would not drop $15K on an equally top of the line amp.

Latest EMM products I believe are using transport from T+A. Its a German company that has been around for almost 30 years & are quite well known in Europe.

The market may have changed, but when we sold our previous ~$10,000 player, a great projector was between $20,000 and $80,000. So people didn't mind spending another $10,000 to get the best picture quality.

But as you can see from some of the comments in this forum, there are a lot of people that think that only loudspeakers make a difference in sound and only projectors (or displays) that make a difference in the PQ. So it's always been an uphill battle to sell a great amp in the home theater market.

Now that you can buy excellent projectors for $5,000 to $10,000 and (sadly discontinued Pioneer Kuros) for $5,000, it will remain to be seen what the market is for an all-out Blu-Ray player. Time will tell...

Charles,

I am still using my D1-x (originally purchased as a D1 back in 2001) as a CD transport and DVD player and cannot say how much I have enjoyed and still enjoy both the sound and picture quality.

I have been using the D-1X analog video output into a Crystallio II for a few years not feeding my DWIN HD 700 (knock on wood still running great), running at 1080i and am still amazed how good an SD image looks scaled with the Crystallio.

My question is whether the DX 5 will have analog outputs included (BNC RGB) until I finally have to replace my DWIN?

I assume the D-1X cannot (or will not be upgradeable)?

Thanks so much for making such great products!

Rob

Hello Rob,

Thanks for the kind words. I am glad that you have received so much enjoyment from your D-1x. There is also an "e" (for "evolution") upgrade available, but I don't know if it makes much sense to upgrade at this point.

As you have correctly guessed, there is unfortunately no way to upgrade the D-1 to play Blu-Ray discs.

And unfortunately, there are no plans to make an analog output at this time on the DX-5. We will only include a composite video output that is mostly useful in case the digital setting are incompatible with your display. Then if you get "lost" because of incompatible settings, you can always use the composite video connection temporarily to "find your way home again". But clearly the market has shifted to digital displays and it doesn't make sense to raise the price to include high-performance analog signals when only a small minority of the customers would ever use them. There are HDMI-to-analog converters like the HD Fury which work quite well, and that may be the best solution for now. It is not so expensive and works quite well.

On the other hand, I still have a 7" Mitsubishi CRT projector. It has glass lenses (instead of plastic) and the picture is fabulous. So I would personally like to build a video D/A converter. The chips we used in the original D-1 deinterlacer were designed for satellite communication, and we were doing 14 bits back when everyone else was only using 9. But today we can buy 16-bit DAC chips that offer far higher performance than what was available ten years ago.

Of course, with analog there are many other ways to improve the picture quality besides just using better DAC chips. So I know that we could make an analog video option that would be absolutely stunning. The problem is whether we could sell enough to make it worth our time. And I am afraid the answer is "No".

But let us see how it goes with the DX-5. We will keep track of the requests, both from dealers and distributors. If there is enough interest, we may consider making a killer video DAC.

I think the best way to do this would be to make an external scaler with multiple inputs. In this way the killer DAC chips, power supplies, and other goodies that create a wonderful analog signal could be applied to other sources besides just the Blu-Ray player. Then the DX-5 would connect to the scaler with the HDMI cable.

Thanks Charles for coming over to this board before the "Oppo Clone" crowd ran amuck. As someone who owns a CX7e that I recently had upgraded to include the minimum phase filter, and who spent the weekend with the QB-9 I can vouch for Ayre products dedication to the craft of high end audio/video. At the end of the day, if I owned a JVC receiver I'd be happy with a pioneer CD player. But I don't, so I'll choose Ayre (as finances allow).

Thanks again!

Wow. I'm glad I ventured into this forum as I normally don't check out BD player talk.

Mr. Hansen, it's been a pleasure to read your posts in this thread. I've been enjoying my Ayre K-1xe for a few years now and it is a purchase decision I have not once regretted (what I do regret is not adding a turntable to my system as I'm equipped with it's phono preamp which everyone tells me is stellar). I appreciate the improvement in audio performance the K-1xe has delivered in my system and the high level of service from Ayre. I'll also echo the praise given to the D-1; my friend uses it as an audio transport and I'm very impressed.

As soon as I decide on a replacement projector, I look forward to auditioning Ayre's BD player in my system when it becomes available. It sounds like you haven't ended your quest to deliver high performance products!

Best!
Mike

I am purchasing the Ayre DX-5 for my high end 2 channel stereo system. The video part of the unit is just a bonus for me.

aehaas

Charles, have you revealed what Dacs are being used in this player?


Also for those that interested here is an internal shot of the player found over on soundstage's website
Sorry it is not the greatest pic

I own a CX-7 that was sent back and modified to the "e" version some time ago. Fast forward and now I'm on the waiting list for the new filter install to bring it up to date. I look forward to auditioning the DX-5. I have been waiting for ONE player that I can also use in my system which serves as my HT and 2 channel system. Thanks for posting over here Charles. Hey if you could send one to Brooks and I'll beta test it for you?

It's the same DAC chip we use in the C-5xeMP -- the Burr-Brown DSD1792. This is the same exact part as the PCM1792 except that the pinout is a little more friendly for sending it "DSD" signals when playing back SACD's. A very minor difference.

As with all of our players since the MP upgrade at the first of the year, we bypass the DAC chip's internal digital filter and use our own custom asymmetric FIR filter (implemented in an FPGA) to give minimum-phase response. There is a white paper on this on our website under the "What's New" section.

I'm very surprised no one has mentioned that this new universal player from Ayre will decode HDCD's. HDCDs sound superb, especially with close-mic'd recordings. Check out Chris Isaak's Baja Sessions or some of Madeline Peroux's albums and you'll see what I mean.

If this player sounds better than the C-5xeMP I'm buying it, period. The bluray capability would just be icing on the cake.

Yes, but probably *not* because of the HDCD compansion process. Read this thread on the Audio Asylum for more information:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/gen...55/554599.html


If you hang a flat panel display between your stereo speakers, you will have a killer home theater system.

With full range speakers, you don't need a subwoofer (unless explosions are your "thing"), and unless you are into sound effects, the surround speakers don't add much to most movies.

And if the DX-5 is your only source, the video and the audio will be completely isolated. You will be surprised at how good movies can look in your home because of this. Even if you just watch one or two a month, it will be a nice bonus to a nice music system.

I heard a nice stereo demo of a sample of the DX-5 player last night. It was impressive even if the room was obtrusive. Mebbe adding a flat panel display would have helped!

I'm already there Charles. I have a pair of Ultima Studio 2' in beautiful glossy piano black finish and a 52" Sony XBR.

BTW, it's been my experience the Ayre electonics sound their best with the new Revel Studio's or Salons, a fact that must drive HK/Mark Levinson crazy, assuming they still care about hi fi audio.

I have heard a lot of demos partnering Ayre gear with Wilson Audio and other well respected speaker brands, but nothing in my humble opinion comes remotely close to the synergy with the Revels.

Now, if Charles can bring down the price of the KX-R preamp to the 10k range, I would be a happier camper.

With today's films you definitely need both surround speakers and a sub, if only to save your mains from having to try and reproduce those explosions.

That having been said, my two-channel system is my home theater as well.

Oh, and I wouldn't mind seeing a cut in the price of the KX-R, either, but I suspect that's like hoping to see a buy one, get one free offer on MX-Rs.

Your showing your age Charles. As much as I like my 2 channel set-up for music playback,home theater it ain't.The whole point of a HT set-up in my opinion is the fun factor that one receives with a good 5.1 or 7.1 set-up.Low end goodies and all the special effects that only subs, surrounds, and a good center channel can bring to the table. That is why it's best to have two separate systems.

Yes, you're right. My favorite movies don't usually have too many explosions (although I did quite enjoy the latest Bond films with Daniel Craig). I tend to prefer foreign films such as "Amelie". A subwoofer doesn't add too much to that genre. But far be it from me to deny you your pleasures. That is why we are planning to include an audio-only HDMI output with the new Audio Rate Control feature documented in HDMI version 1.3a. If any surround-sound processor manufacturer steps up to the plate and also supports it, the result will be a new level of sound quality for surround sound.

The second-generation Revels are outstanding designs. There are many things I admire about them. As the founder and former chief designer for Avalon Acoustics, there are not a lot of products that I say that about.

By the way, contrary to appearances, the Revel speakers are not designed by Kevin Voecks. Instead a talented engineer by the name of Mark Glazer, apparently hidden within the bowels of Harman, is the true auteur of these loudspeakers.

Most of the time you don't. If the movies are mixed in regard that the normal speakers are full range. But still one may miss a lot of bass information as the sounds from the LFE channel are left out whenever mixdown surround sound to two channel occur. So you get good bass, and even sometimes wallshaking bass. But you never get the wallshattering earthquake bass. That is exclusive for the LFE channel. You could have a pair of Wilson Alexandrias and even if they are full range you will never ever experience the really low subwoofer sounds as they simply are not included in the mixdown.

Except for some software DVD players, I have never ever seen LFE be included in the mixdown. It is probably because it is "illegal" according to some license, to protect "normal" speakers or some other quirky reason.

However, the real problem is when the movie has been mixed as if only the subwoofer is the only speaker that is supposed to play back low frequency sounds. A two channel mixdown will then have almost no bass and sound pretty thin. The first "The Fast And The Furious" movie is mixed like this, and a whole lot of others too.

If the Ayre D-5x can do 2 channel mixdown buthave an option to keep the LFE-track included, then of course this would solve the problem. Just keep in mind that all the speakers (minus LFE) would have to be attenuated -10db digitally since the LFE is mixed lower as it is supposed to have 10db headroom over the normal speakers. And the result is that the mixdown with LFE mixdown would play -10db lower (and movies are already mixed low since they have a big dynamic range, and then if you forget to turn the volume down and then put on a modern compressed CD, then you surely will JUMP and reach for the volume, and you might fry your speakers at the same time if you are really unlucky) unless you can think of a good solution for this.

So, in the end does the DX-5 have a potential of sounding a little better that the C-5xeMP with SACDs or just a little easier time reading and decoding them?

BTW, have C-5xeMP in my dedicated 2 channel stereo system and find it very special there. However, I can't imagine my separate home theater rig without a 5.1 surround sound setup with a subwoofer; especially with BluRay movies like Valkyrie.

Hi Charles,
Thankyou,for you input on this forum.The d-1xe was a great player.I will not use hdmi for audio,is there a chance of multi channel analog out (5.1,7.1) for those with hi end 2,5.4 systems or will the new marantz,denon be our only real option for audio quality?
Regards Victor.
My Systems,
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1136036

This is simply not the case. ALL SSP's are required to have "Bass Management Configurations" 1 and 2. BMC 2 assumes that you have large fronts, small everywhere else and DON'T have a sub-woofer and the LFE channel is re-directed into the two large front speakers.

Most SSP's fall into the "Top Class" category, which additionally requires BMC configuration 3. Configuration 3 assumes that you have large speakers everywhere but still DON'T have a sub-woofer and now the LFE is re-directed into ALL of your speakers.


Now you are mixing apples and oranges. The requirements for sources (eg, DVD players) are different than the requirements for SSP's.

You are right -- BMC 2 is FORBIDDEN for source components. From the Dolby Manual:

"Configuration 2 must not be used in Multichannel Source Products because it is not
possible to satisfy both reference output level and maximum output requirements in
this configuration. Therefore, special bass management options exist for multichannel
Source products."

But who in their right mind is going to try to put together a state-of-the-art home theater and skip the SSP?


Why would you want to omit the SSP for a home theater?

EDIT: Sorry, I think I missed your point. You are right that an HT 2.0 system as I originally described will be missing the LFE channel. So if you want the explosions, you will have to use the HDMI output into an SSP. It is actually forbidden by Dolby to inlude the LFE information in the 2-channel mixdown on the source component.

There is a way around this however. It would be kind of a pain, but not so much as a full-blown home theater. The source component can still output the LFE information (and optionally the low bass of the other channels) into the subwoofer output. The stock Oppo (and most sources besides the Ayre DX-5!) has an analog output for this. You would then need to add a subwoofer and rig a three-channel preamplifier so that you could control the volume of the sub-woofer channel along with your stereo mains. This would be tricky, but do-able. It might require some special matching of equipment, and probably using only one channel of a stereo preamp to control the sub-woofer. You would probably have to do some work to tie all of this together with the remote. But it could be done.

It would be even more work with the Ayre, as you would have to use an SSP to decode the HDMI to get the LFE channel. All of that processing power, just to drive the sub-woofer.... But it could be done. That way you could add the explosions back to your HT 2.0 system....

The DAC chip in the two players is identical. The only difference from a performance point of view is that we have learned a few new tricks in the five years since the C-5xe was released. The MP digital filter was one of them, and that is available as a retrofittable upgrade for only $200.

But there are a some other things, such as our EquiLock circuit, first used in the MX-R power amplifiers, that also boost the performance. That is the probably the main difference from an audio performance standpoint, although there are some other minor changes here and there that also help.

By including both the state-of-the-art two-channel analog outputs and the HDMI multi-channel audio output, we should be able to satisfy both types of customers. You can use it in an HT 2.0 system (less the LFE, so explosions need not apply!) or as a state-of-the-art music player, both using the analog audio outputs. Or use the HDMI ouput and put it into a full-blown home theater.

We won't do this for two reasons:

a) There isn't enough room in the chassis to put ten channels of fully-balanced, fully discrete, zero feedback audio circuitry. Our two-channel audio PCB takes up more room than the ten-channel board it replaces.

b) I'm not sure what anyone would do with 7.1 channels of state-of-the-art audio. There are only a handful of multi-channel analog preamps in the world. I suppose if money were not an object that one could buy three of our $18,500 KX-R preamps and slave them together with the AyreLink function!

But even then you wouldn't have any way to control the time delays or bass management or apply EQ or any of the things that are at the heart of most home theaters. The only real solution would be to build a true-state-of-the-art SSP that had the same sonic performance as the best two-channel-only preamps. We have considered this, but it would cost at least $20,000. I just don't think that there is a significant market for this.

For example, it would relatively easy for us to make an outboard multi-channel DAC that would accept the HDMI signal and create the extra channels as super-high-quality analog. But then what would you do with it?

Charles. I might not have the space for a full blown HT, but i still would like to experience the full blown bass if my speakers can handle it, and also have the proper bass whenever the soundtrack is mixed "wrong" (ie only bass in the LFE).

Regarding the various BMCs: Maybe you are right in theory, but LFE is NEVER redirected into Large fronts, center or surrounds. There is a reason for that, and that reason is probably that "normal" speakers simpy aren't made for these kinds of frequencys. The only way LFE is redirected is when you would have something called "Redirect LFE", and that is an option that I have never seen.

As for apples and oranges: Software DVD players sometimes also act as SSP when you have an HTPC. Usually you can do bass-management within the sound card drivers, or within the DVD-player. So in that sense the software DVD player can be source and "ssp" at the same time.

Just disregard most of my last post. It was written as an answer to you before you edited your post. I see now that we are on the same wavelength :=)