Ayre DX-5 bluray player - Page 31

He did say "Ground Loop" on several occasions. On that point he was correct. In this scenario we all keep looking at the audio/video signal path within the system and the power supply. It's easy to overlook the cable itself, let alone all the other variable that we can't see over the internet.

I found it by another forum thread myself. All my gear is grounded at the same location. When I saw this solution it dawned on me that this was something I hadn't considered.

All's well that end's well!

Meanwhile (back to the DX-5!), after THE INCREDIBLE HULK and ALIEN ANTHOLOGY, AVATAR Extended Edition is among the Blu Ray discs in my Code B collection that won't play properly. AVATAR simply freezes after 30 min, but plays fine on the Panasonic 35 player. Hopefully, we get a firmware update soon!

Ingo, Oppo is beta testing new firmware. In the mean time you might try the beta release from the summer. It allowed me to play some discs that caused the DX-5 to freeze. Also make sure to erase the Persistent Storage. This fixes some freezes. I wish that "feature" could be removed. Aliens should play fine if you don't try playing the SE versions from the first menu.

You can't load Oppo firmware into the Ayre DX-5 (or vice-versa).

However, we do have an Ayre version of the Oppo beta firmware on our website for download. You can't use the internet connection to download it directly, as the firmware in the player only points to the URL for the "official" firmware release. But you can download the file and either use a CD-ROM or a USB thumbdrive to install it.

The URL's are in post #800:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post19528006

From post 800:


I will not risk having ticks and pops when playing SACDs...
After the break-in period the DX-5 is now my favorite digital music player. Distortions here would by annoying. So I wait until a final version is published. Any idea when this will happen ?

Just to be clear, you hear one small click when the SACD track moves from one to the next. It is audible, but only barely. It never happens during the music.

I imagine the dx5 like the 83 can revert to an earlier firmware if the latest beta doesnt appeal ; so worth a try I would think in any case considering what Roger said
Its been a long stretch for this firmware as oppo has said it had to start rewriting the code from an early point for the official firmware

That is debatable. I agree that the ticks are not loud and that they occur, when they do, between tracks. However, on some classical recordings, the tracks allow access to portions of a large piece or to its subdivisions which, in performance, are played without interruption. In those specific cases, the tick does interrupt the music. Not a biggie for most.

My understanding is that the Ayre DX-5 beta firmware has some improvements compared with the Oppo BDP-83 beta firmware. Most of these are aimed at playing BD-ROM with AAC soundtrack as is used for the Japanese television system.

I don't know if there is any change compared to the Oppo when playing SACD. In any event, it sounds like the problem is a very minor one -- just barely audible in most situations and certainly not something that will damage your loudspeakers.

It seems like the rate of firmware development for the BDP-83/DX-5 has dropped off since Oppo/MTK began work on the BDP-93. Perhaps now that the '93 is shipping they will resume work. But perhaps not. We just have to wait and see. I don't understand why the new firmware went backwards (even slightly) in terms of SACD performance, and neither does my contact at Oppo. (MTK writes all of the firmware.)

Good point. I had not noticed that. Darned--now I will!

I don't know why this happens, either, but I can tell you Oppo is not alone. I have seen the very same with Classe in the SSP-800. Problems that were found and fixed resurfaced in a later code drop. Now I see why Meridian did full regression testing each time. Painful and time consuming even when automated, but apparently necessary.

Gentlemen, honestly: we're talking about a 11000€ High-End player and not about a cheap supermarket unit. I am well aware of the the problems with the Blu Ray "standard"; I believe there is no player in the world that does have no glitches with no Blu Ray disc...
That's why I use 5 video sources Charles: 3 BD players, 1 HD-DVD player and a HDTV cable HDD receiver. So if a certain player fails with a certain disc, I use one of the others (a Panasonic DMB-BD35 and a Sony BDP-1Se, both cheap compared to the DX-5).
However, meanwhile the DX-5 is the best CD-player I've ever listened to, its SACD performance at least equals the performance of a Krell Evolution 505 (but with a very different character) and the Blu Ray picture is noticably superior to that of the other players. Why should I use a "beta" software then and risk to compromise the function ? "Beta" equals "unfinished", clicks during SACD playback simply equal malfunction.
If Ayre / Oppo come up with a finished firmware, I will trustfully install it.

That is a very good point. It is one thing to have launch-related, early-adopter teething pains, but to still have these kinds of compatitiblity problems 4+ years into the format is inexcusable. I recently found that the 7.1 audio tracks on Toy Story 3 will not play on my Oppo BDP83 without sounding like the woofers are going to shoot out of the speakers.

I suppose doing firmware updates has become part of the user experience - but I do wonder how willing the mass-market consumer will be to do this. A buddy of mine at BB says they get a lot of 'no fault found' returns on bluray players because of disc playback problems.

In this context, it actually is quite remarkable how well BR is doing.

A very small part of the problem is the fact that this is MTK and Oppo's first Blu-ray player. So there is a learning curve there. To make matters worse, 80% of MTK's business is now mobile phones. Only 20% is video disc players. That means that, for better or for worse, even "mainstream" disc players are now a niche market. Even Pioneer dropped out and is sourcing their players from Sharp.

However, by far the largest reason for ongoing new firmware updates is because of the morons who author the discs. (No, they are not all morons -- just the ones who misuse features and "break" the players.) It is true the compression software is very complex to operate, but that is their job, for heavens sake! Yet there is a constant stream of new discs that won't play on any player without some sort of glitch. Then it is up to the player manufacturer to solve the problem of the disc manufacturer....

It's not as if there is any player is completely free from the need for firmware updates. Nor is this a new problem. Even after eight years, the best DVD players in the world still needed firmware updates to cope with improperly authored discs. So if you're thinking that any day now there will be an end to firmware updates, you are going to be sorely disappointed. In fact, with all the extra features of Blu-ray and HDMI, there are going to be more problems than ever.

Unfortunately, there will never be a "finished" firmware. The problem is that the studios will always continue to release discs that are not compliant with the specifications or find areas where no specification exists.

At this point, you simply have to select the problems you are willing to live with. The "beta" firmware fixes several problems found in the earlier firmware:

1. A small number of Blu-ray discs with Dolby TrueHD audio exhibit a momentary audio drop-out issue if the player is connected to an A/V receiver via HDMI and bitstream is selected as the HDMI Audio format. This version fixes the issue.
2. Certain SACD discs with many short tracks or with a long track following several short tracks can cause the player to freeze during playback. This version fixes the issue.
3. The previous firmware version displays the time counter slightly too fast when playing SACD. This version fixes the issue.
4. Support for LPCM audio streaming over home network is restored. The previous firmware did not carry this feature over from older versions. Please note that home network streaming is an experimental feature. You will need a computer running UPnP or DLNA streaming server software that can support transcoding to LPCM in order to use this feature.
5. Fix for the issue of incorrect video size when playing some Blu-ray discs, such as Patton.
6. Other general disc and media file compatibility improvement based on recent and upcoming Blu-ray releases as well as user-submitted samples.

In exchange, there are very small "ticks" when the track changes on SACD. I believe that most people will be better served with the beta firmware than the earlier firmware. But the choice is up to you. It is also very easy to revert from one version to the other if you change your mind.

Fortunately, my Transrotor turntable needed no firmware upgrade yet...

I have encountered no problems with any audio disc yet (and I don't look at the display, since I can't read it anyway from my listening seat). My DX-5 plays 90% audio and 10% video discs and those few BDs that caused problems are played on another player (and vice versa!), thus currently I will not change the firmware.

Understood! I did not mean to imply that disc playback problems are a hardware problem, just that they are a bluray problem. Seems to me that if bluray is going to make significant progress with the mass-market consumer, the euphemistic 'joe six pack', firmware upgrades are going to need to be automated, like is currently the case with set-top boxes.

Yes, turntables, amplifiers, and speakers are the way of the future!

That will help. But Blu-ray only looks better than DVD once you get up to a 50" display or so. Combine that expense with the added expense of the players and the discs, and I don't know if "joe six-pack" will ever adopt Blu-ray.

Actually it will happen if they pull the same stunt as they did with vinyl. In 1989 or so when they discontinued vinyl, it still made up 1/3 of all music sales (1/3 was CD and the final 1/3 was cassette). So if they discontinue DVD discs, "joe six-pack" will be forced to buy Blu-ray.

The set-top box already has an internet connection built-in, which makes for simple firmware updates. With Blu-ray players, you need a separate internet connection. Which is why they added ethernet to HDMI 1.4...

Direct drive or belt drive Ingo ? Maybe need a upgrade of a different nature


Thats the only thing that makes sense to why they implemented it Charles ; I wonder why they werent happy enough with the bd live they love with a passion doing the dual job ? Maybe theyve concluded a lot of people switch it off to load bd j discs faster No thats too sceptical

[quote=Charles Hansen;19764677]That will help. But Blu-ray only looks better than DVD once you get up to a 50" display or so. Combine that expense with the added expense of the players and the discs, and I don't know if "joe six-pack" will ever adopt Blu-ray.QUOTE]

Hi Charles,

My personal experience is that there are a lot more people with 50" displays or larger these days comparatively speaking versus two years ago! The price drop two years ago helped push it along.I lost money right after I bought my 50" Panasonic plasma as the prices dropped.I could have purchased a 58" for the price I paid for the 50"! They now sell Blu Ray players and movies at Wal Mart Charles.I've seen several families of "Joe six packs" in there at times.

Acceptance of Blu-ray is solely dependent upon its price. Now that players are $150 and less, more people will buy them. But there are still people who would rather spend only $50 for a DVD player. Especially because the discs are much cheaper.

I don't think that Blu-ray discs will ever be as cheap as DVDs. It is really a shame that HD-DVD didn't have enough money to bribe the Hollywood studios, because it is much cheaper to make an HD-DVD disc than a Blu-ray disc. In fact the disc manufacturing costs were the same as DVD, because HD-DVD used the same equipment to manufacture the discs. Blu-ray requires an extra coating layer to protect the pits, as they are so close to the surface that they can be easily damaged.

High performance is always a niche product, because it costs more than a lower-performance product. Most people don't care and would rather just buy the less expensive option.

Kal, I read your piece on the DX-5, several times in fact, and found no mention of your listening to its analog outputs. I was under the _very strong_ impression that you evaluated it only as a transport, and offered no opinion about its DA performance. The culprit was probably my cranial flatulence. I was very disappointed, I wanted to hear a second opinion to Fremer's (whose ears and reporting I respect). I probably misread, but then so must have many readers. Will you please describe your opinion of the DA of the DX-5, especially on hi-rez? I currently use a Marantz SA8260, a separate Sony BD, a silly-large Marantz HDMI switcher and Bel Canto pre/power. I was really hoping to replace those 3 source boxes with a single outstanding box for all my transport and DA needs, and was saddened to hear of mediocre sound from a $10k component. Was Fremer's unit _really_ broken in? But this news gives me hope. I used to design and build audiophile gear, so I have enormous respect for Charles's work. If anyone doubts his ability, read his countless posts on diyaudio's solid-state forum with John Curl et al, the best analog audio design discussion on the web: 20k posts on one thread (Curl's Blowtorch preamp)!!

While I'm at it, I'm also a big fan of Guido Tent, Bruno Putzeys, and all the folks at Grimm and Hypex, as well as Grant Carpenter of Gordon Audio. Perfectionists all and very nice people, I've spoken about design with all of them and learned a boatload. They live mostly on the recording and mastering side.

One more thing: I don't find that good SACDs lack anything in the slam department.

I described only the HDMI output since that is the only way to get MCH and my responsibility was to review the DX-5 as a MCH source. I used the analog outputs only briefly and mostly with the SB Touch as a USB source.

Stereophile's policy is to minimize overlap. Only in rare circumstances will they have two people review the same part of the same product. However, there are more reviews coming, one on SoundStage.com and the other on TheAudioBeat.com .

I'm not sure what you mean by "report of mediocre sound". Fremer likes a certain type of sound and it isn't the Ayre sound. He always likes the Musical Fidelity and dCS components and doesn't care for the Ayre products. Given that I thought that his review was a near rave. The only thing he complained about was that he thought the SACD playback sounded "soft". But SACD is supposed to sound soft! That's what people like about it. I thought it was odd when he said that SACD playback on the Playback Designs sounded just like PCM playback on the DX-5. To me that indicates that the Playback Designs must be hardening up the sound of SACD, as Fremer never complained that PCM playback on the Ayre sounded "soft". That comment certainly left me scratching my head.

The following month MF reviewed the new dCS Debussy DAC. Of course he loved it, but he also compared it against the Ayre. He said the Ayre was richer and warmer but that he preferred the more incisive presentation of the dCS. In the end, he said it was a matter of personal preference. He didn't say that one was better than the other, just that he preferred one and that other people might prefer the other.

Of course, the best review is the one that you do with your own ears and your own music, preferably in your own room with your own system. Nobody knows what you like better than you do!

Thanks Kal.


Thanks Charles, I read that review also, agreed. I don't have a local dealer and my buying window comes much later anyway... I'll know when I listen.

Re: break-in, in my experience when components break in they open up a lot early, stay that way, and get ever more musical for a long time. Our old amplifiers and preamps were not as good as the new ones in most respects, but for musicality the old ones always had the advantage. I consider it similar to the mechanical process of a car engine improving mileage over the years, a nearly universal phenomenon. In fact the moving parts become at once more brittle and have reduced friction and margin. Another analogy is work-hardened wire or rope. The elasticity drops but the tensile strength improves a little. Similarly some heat-dissipating components will increase gain and reduce dissipation slightly because of the creation of more-efficient current routes. Alternatively, one could see the inefficient routes opened (cut), much like the action of flowing water. The parts are constantly settling into energy wells until those wells break. This is mumbo-jumbo and unproven (only my speculation), but there is a logic. At the same time other components are deteriorating from the start of operation. I sometimes wonder whether filter cap leakage current sometimes warms up sound with its addition of ground noise. Sorry, back to the DX-5...

Best of luck!

Let me add that, in my report on the Squeezebox Touch and using HD files, I did use the DACs in the DX-5 and was extremely pleased with the sound.

A question for Charles or anyone else who happens to know the answer:
I just picked up my new DX-5 today and am wondering about optimal break in procedures. How many separate functions need unique break ins? The USB DAC is clearly one. Do CD and SACD break in together or should they each have 100-500 hours? How about HDMI Audio-does that require a separate break in? What about the issue of continuous play vs. intermittent play for optimal break in? Any other suggestions?
Thanks,
Rick

I believe only the analog circuits require a break-in, the digital ones do not. CD and SACD of course share digital and analog pathways and thus require no separate break-in procedures. What I would recommend is not to unplug the player from the mains power, since even in standby, I thing the analog circuits are left "switched on".

The insulators seem to be the materials that require the break-in -- wires, PCB substrates, and capacitors. The best way to break it is to simply play music through it. This requires 300 to 500 hours of play. If you are impatient you can just put a disc on repeat for a couple of weeks (it's fine to interrupt this to listen to music!). You don't have to have the rest of the system on unless you are also trying to break-in another component at the same time.

All of the discs use the same exact signal path except for the laser itself. I cannot imagine that the laser requires any break-in to sound the best, but stranger things have been known to happen...

The USB input also sends its signal to the main analog PCB. There should be little, if any, break-in of the digital receiver PCB although people report some break-in effects on USB cables. If these are to be believed, there could be a (very small!) break-in on the digital PCB.

The HDMI Audio Output is a pure digital signal and should require little if any break-in.

But I wouldn't worry about these third-order effects. I would just worry about breaking in the main analog audio PCB and don't worry about the rest. If there is any break-in happening there, it will take care of itself through normal use.

Thanks Charles and IngoT for the responses. We observed at Music Lovers' Audio in San Francisco that several hundred hours of break of only the disc player on the demo DX-5 left the USB DAC sounding significantly inferior to a well-broken in QB-9. After a few hundred hours on the USB DAC, it sounded more like expected. That has led us to think there are separate break ins. It seems I'll just have to resign myself to the DX-5 sounding better and better the more I play it. As you noted, stranger things have happened than what most of us can imagine.
Rick