Ayre DX-5 bluray player - Page 33

As someone who lived with a QB-9 for about a year and then upgraded to the DX-5, I can verify Mr. Hansen's statements. The QB-9 is highly enjoyable and musical. While the DX-5 isn't overwhelmingly superior it seems to me clearly a cut above the QB-9. Just as I felt I "rediscovered" many recordings I thought I had known well previously when I started listening to them via the QB-9, the DX-5 brings a whole new level of refinement and reduced noise floor leading to a startling increase in 3-dimensionality. [Full disclosure: when I upgraded to the DX-5, I simultaneously changed my amplification (Musical Fidelity M6i to Classe CA 5200) and upgraded my AC line conditioner (Rotel to Synergistic Research Tesla Power Cell) as well as an Amarra upgrade, so certainly some of the improvements I have heard are not due to the DX-5 alone.] I don't know if I'd spend the extra $7500 just for the better DAC, but if you could also use a terrific universal disc player, it's not a bad deal. FWIW, in A-B testing at the shop, I thought the DX-5 gave up little if anything to the dCS Debussy.
Best,
Rick

There is a new firmware revision available that fixes many small bugs and is recommended for all users. Please visit:

http://www.ayre.com/dx5_firmware.htm

for details, instructions, and downloads (if your player is not connected to the internet). Please let me know if you have any questions. Feedback is welcome.

Hello Siravut,

Nothing major, but definitely worthwhile. Fixed the SACD "ticks" between tracks, made the transport slightly quieter for CDs, allowed many new releases to play properly (despite poor authoring!) -- the full list is at the link in the above post.

Thanks,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.

Dear Pawel,

With 200 Blu-ray discs, that is at least a $4,000 investment. And it sounds like that will continue. It only makes sense to get the most out of them.

If you are like me and an Ayre disc player is your ONLY video source (ie, no cable or satellite), the picture quality will shock you. Well, maybe not "shock" you, but it will increase your enjoyment of film watching immensely.

One of the secrets to great performance is to completely isolate your video and audio systems. The DX-5 (and all Ayre video disc players) do this, and the result is both better sound and better PQ. All other video sources tie the video ground and the audio ground together, which introduces noise and ground loops into both systems.

If you do use other video sources, your options are limited. If you have a top flight two-channel preamp (and don't listen to surround sound) then a few models (Ayre and Levinson are the only two that I know of) will disconnect the ground of the unselected inputs from the audio system.

If you have a surround-sound system, then it is really tough. We've toyed with the idea of making a ground-isolating HDMI audio/video splitter, but I don't know if there's enough demand for it. Since HDMI has take over everything, about the only thing to do is to unplug the unused HDMI cable(s) when you are going to do some SERIOUS movie watching.

When you do this (assuming you are using an Ayre video disc player), it will completely change your experience of watching film. Remember that all we are doing is looking at a flat, two-dimensional array of colored dots. The average movie has an edit every two seconds. When that edit occurs you are faced with a completely different array of colored dots.

Your brain has to somehow interpret all of those patches of color and make sense of them. That small, blurry tan blob is a face in the background. That broad, vertical brown line is a tree trunk in the foreground, and so on. In real life we are used to that. Turn your head quickly and and you are faced with a new set of colors to interpret. We got really good at it because for 500,000 years our lives depended on it. Nowadays it is only when we drive that it becomes that important.

With a standard video setup (where the video and audio ground are tied together), some sort of subliminal noise is introduced into the system. Then every time there is a scene change, it takes a split second to "assemble" the dots into a coherent scene in your brain. Your brain has to work to do this and by the end of the movie (and ten thousand edits!) you are fatigued.

When the grounds are isolated, watching a movie is just as natural as real life. There is no fatigue factor. You end up becoming more involved in the film and it is almost impossible to turn it off.

Sorry, it's a crappy thing to tell most people because they have such complex systems with so many sources. It becomes difficult to isolate the grounds. My best advice is to use the Toslink output of all of your other video sources. You won't be able to use the latest sound formats, but normally these other sources are not your high quality sources anyway.

Then keep ALL of your video connectors away from your audio system. Have them go straight to your video display. If it doesn't have enough inputs, buy some sort of video switcher for the less critical sources and run them through the switcher. Send the best sources directly to the display, as the switcher will inevitably introduce some small degradation. When you isolate your video and audio systems, you will have to manually switch each input (unless you have a remote with a macro or a Crestron), but the rewards will be substantial.

Have fun!

Just some quick and early feedback on the updates:

SUN AUDIO updated the XILINXES (very quickly, good service) and the MONO problems with some BD Audios seem to be gone. I also added the new firmware and now the problem with ALIENS is gone, but THE INCREDIBLE HULK is still not playable, as before.

Thanks for the feedback, Ingo. The mono problem was our fault. The Aliens problem was fixed in both the beta firmware from last fall and now the production version.

But I'm not sure what to tell you about the Incredible Hulk. Last fall Oppo ordered it from Germany and this was their report:

> We received the disc "Hulk Der Unglaubliche (The Incredible Hulk)"
> German version by Concorde Home Entertainment. Our test did not
> encounter any playback problems.
>
> We would recommend:
>
> 1. Make sure that the user has the latest firmware.
> 2. Obtain the disc from the user and test.
> 3. Obtain the player from the user and test.

Have you tried another copy of the disc?

Thanks,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.

Just to let you know, Home Theater magazine will be reviewing the DX-5 in the near future. To date the only English language reviews have been in Stereophile and solely dealt with the sound quality.

The Home Theater review will cover it all, so this will be the first US review that talks about the PQ. It is just being submitted so it will be another two to three months before it hits the newsstands. But there will finally be an English language review that covers all of the bases.

(Stereophile tried printing some video reviews about ten years ago and their readers went berserk! People cancelled subscriptions, wrote nasty letters, and just generally gave them hell. That's why from reading the Stereophile reviews on the DX-5 you couldn't even tell that it played video...)

just updated new firmware... works fine.

CD playback is more quieter than before.. thanks.

have some question in Release Information,

What does mean, "Support for LPCM audio streaming over home network is

restored"

Can DX-5 play music files( wav, flac..) over a network ?

The Oppo platform we use has added Universal Plug and Play (UPnP) capabilities with one of the firmware releases. The whole thing is something of a disaster. I suspect it was designed by a committee. You need a "server", a "renderer", and a "controller". I have no idea what any of this stuff means, let alone how to use it. The software applications are horrible and typically people use $800 iPads and Wi-Fi networks to make the whole thing run. For an example of one person's experience with it, read this review:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/l...ated-amplifier

(Don't pay too much attention to his claim that this thing sounded better than the Ayre QB-9. It turns out he had some issues with his USB setup and he his now re-evaluating things. In other words, the fat lady ain't sung yet.)

I think there is a whole forum dedicated to using the UPnP setup on the Oppo BDP-83 right here at the AVS Forums:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1215071

I couldn't even make it past the first post without incurring serious brain damage. I'm sure that there is a way to stream audio across an ethernet connection to the Ayre DX-5, but I couldn't begin to tell you how.

The reference to restoring the feature was just that a beta firmware version "broke" the UPnP. The official release "unbroke" that feature so that it works.

Don't forget that the DX-5 also has a USB audio-only input. Normally this is restricted to 3 meters, but as noted on our website we have tested the Icron USB extender with excellent results:

http://www.ayre.com/usb.htm

It is somewhat pricey but we are also currently testing a less expensive Monoprice extender. We should have a report in a week or so.

Thanks to Charles and Mr Rautner I am owner of brand new DX5.
I have no issues even with Incredible Hulk.The sound is clearly superior when comparing to Pioneer Elite BDP09.I have not tested computer streaming and I am still evaluating picture differences.
Thanks again
Pawel

no Charles I haven't. The movie was disappointing anyway, so I will not by a new copy. Maybe Concorde secretly issued a re-authored version which was sent to Oppo. At the time when HULK was released they had also problems with other discs (IRON MAN). HULK plays on my other players, so no problem for me after all. I still have to check my AVATAR Extended Edition copy, which also had caused problems. I will inform you.

Thanks and best

Ingo

Does this bd machine offer big improvements in PQ in BD, DVD and in SQ? I read a shootout comparison by Home Theater Mag where they tested $350 to $3000 dollar bd machines and saw no difference wben playing them on a 100+ projector screen.

There is a new review of the Ayre DX-5 by Shane Buettner in the June 2011 issue Home Theater Magazine. In that review he states that the Ayre DX-5 is the "first one that I've seen that actually looks better in comparison to other players I've seen over HDMI."

It is also an interesting review in that it compares the Ayre QB-9 DAC sonically to the DX-5 over it's analog outputs.

Check it out.

Anyone had a chance to compare the video section to that of the new Oppo BDP-95?

Unfortunately, as studios add more and more "interactive" content to Blu-rays, the speed of the processor becomes more of an issue too, unless you like to put in the disc then make the popcorn like I had to do with my first generation BD players.

I would say that the digital outputs (HDMI video and HDMI audio) offer noticeable, but not dramatic, improvements over any other player made. I think that you would see these improvements regardless of the display device and/or size of the screen/display. Similarly, you would hear these improvements regardless of the cost of your audio system. These differences would probably not show up to most people in quick A-B "back-and-forth" switching. Instead they become obvious with extended use.

I would rate the analog audio outputs closer to the "dramatic" difference category, where just about anybody would hear a difference on just about any source material. This applies to the USB audio input when used as a computer music server also.

Whether these differences justify the high cost of the player is a question that only you can answer. For most people they won't, and for others they will.

I spoke with Shane after the review went to press and we were allowed to talk about things besides factual statements of the player's design. There were a few points of interest:

a) He bought the player. (He would have kept the review sample but he wanted a black one to match the rest of his gear.)

b) Shane was a big proponent of 3D. When we needed a new projector last summer, I called him to ask for a recommendation. He said we were crazy not to wait a few months for the new 3D projectors to be released. We bought an "old" 2D anyway.

He said when JVC released their new 3D lineup that he and several other staffers at Home Theater magazine all bought projectors. Then they had a 3D orgy for the next several weeks. That kind of got the bug out of their systems.

He said that since he got the Ayre DX-5 he has only watched one 3D movie. He said that the picture on the Ayre is so much better that he can't bear to go back to a lesser player. We were talking about content and I mentioned that I had enjoyed "Up!" in 3D at the cinema. He said that it sucks in 3D on Blu-Ray. The problem is that with 3D you lose half the brightness. With 2D "Up!" is vibrant and the colors really pop, especially with the DX-5. With 3D he said it just looks washed out and grey.

c) He has been into computer audio for a long time and he loves replacing a bunch of boxes with just one box -- CD, SACD, DVD-Audio, DVD-Video, Blu-ray, and USB D/A converter. He also loves the way it sounds. He had an Ayre QB-9 USB DAC for the better part of a year and was taken aback at the improvement in sound.

The BDP-93/5 has a different video processing chip than the DX-5/BDP-83. With Blu-ray, this makes not one whit of difference. Some Blu-ray content (especially concert videos) are recorded in 1080i and require deinterlacing. Both chips do fine on this. With DVD, the best the new chip will be able to do is to equal the old chip, as it was essentially perfect with both deinterlacing and upscaling.

The difference comes in with low-quality sources, such as streaming video over the internet. The new chipset has more extensive features designed to deal with these low-quality bitstreams such as "noise reduction", "mosquito noise reduction", "edge enhancement", et cetera, et cetera. Some people love this stuff. Other people find that it looks unnatural, artificial, and annoying.

I think it's safe to say that someone who is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a top-quality player and display device is probably not going to short-change himself by watching low-quality sources. So it is probably something of a non-issue for that type of customer.

As far as the loading times, I'm not aware of any difference between the '83 and the '93. It probably depends more on the speed of your internet connection. One of the great things about those players (and the Ayre DX-5) is that in the setup menu you can simply turn the BD-Live feature off. Then it will load like a normal disc.

Unfortunately, I must report further playability issues regarding german code B discs. AVATAR Special Edition still freezes after the firmware update and so do the newly bought YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN (Frankenstein Junior) and THE TOWN. DUNE (1984) isn't even recognized (error message UNKNOWN DISC) by the player. All these discs play fine on my other players. A little too much failure for a disc player from 2010, I must sayx and that is why I'm currently disappointed. Oppo is in serious need to pay more attention to the code B disc playability. I have somewhat 300 BDs and had the time to test about 30 of them. I am wondering how many of the remaing will be played...

Edit:

My DX-5 is not connected to the net and the BD-Live options are switched off.

With certain BDs, I hear a quite loud noise from the transport during disc loading. Sounds like the transport does not catch it properly and the disc slips during acceleration. After a few or some more seconds , the disc is recognized and plays fine. I can't remember this from the time before the updates. Normal?

Hi Charles, perhaps this has been asked before (although a cursory search did not find it), but do you plan an updated version of your player based off the Oppo 93?

I will check with Oppo with regards to those titles. They are normally very responsive, so let's hope for some good news from them. I suspect that the biggest problem is that the player was never intended to be sold in Europe, and for this reason they may not test Region B discs as thoroughly.

I don't know about the noise. I have the old version of the firmware available. If you want to revert and see if it affects things, let me know and I will post it on our website. You would need either a "thumb drive" (USB stick) or to burn a CD-ROM, as we cannot have two separate versions on the internet upgrade. Let me know if you want to try that.

Not at this time.

The main feature added was 3D. If you look a few posts up, you will see a post I made where the editor of Home Theater was heavily invested into 3D. But since he put the DX-5 into his system, he has only watched one 3D movie.

Personally I think the whole thing will be like SACD or DVD-Audio. All the manufacturers do it because they think they have to, but nobody really wants it. Eventually everyone will figure out that there isn't enough content to justify selling it, supporting it, buying new displays, wearing funny glasses, and all that.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that the market should be driven by the one movie that looks good in 3D (Avatar). And I don't want to spend a lot of time redesigning a player for that one movie either. I guess the only other thing I can say is that we have plenty of other projects to keep us occupied this year...

Charles:

Thanks for the response. I was more curious about some of the other 'benefits' to the 93 like dual HDMI outputs (which I then realized you had alreday done) and a somewhat smoother/less noisy disc drive (and drawer).

For what it is worth, I happen to fully agree with your views on 3D. I recently went to see Thor in the theater (not a bad film) and made a point to see it in 2D rather than 3D. Hate the glasses, makes my eyes ache, and looks thoroughly cheesy .....

I guess I'm going to have to find a dealer in my area and see if I can demo the DX-5 in my system, particularly since I'm most interested in its audio capabilities.

Thx!

Simon

Just my two cents on 3D:

AVATAR was ablessing and a curse for 3D. A blessing since it impressively demonstrated the capability of the technology and a curse since it was such a sucess that the studios thought they had to deliver more 3D independent of its quality. Recently I bought a Toshiba 55 inches 3D TV together with a Panasonic 3D Player (the latter for the price difference between a silver and a black DX-5...) and AVATAR looks very good in 3D, without headaches or any other obstacles (I am lucky here!). But it is still the only relevant movie (I have not yet received TRON LEGACY in 3D) but there is more to come: Peter Jackson is filming the HOBBIT in native 3D (and in 48fps!), Spielberg new TINTIN movie will come up in 3D and so on...I believe in two years every player will include 3D. Does the DX-5 require a 3D update ? No, since a second 3D player can be cheap and perfectly complement the DX-5 for this special purpose.

If there is any update for the DX-5 to be done, I would suggest an additional SPDIF/Toslink Input. I could use it. Really, though I'm aware of its limitations.

New review online:
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php?...views&Itemid=2

Charlie,

The main thing I would be interested in from a 93 or 95-based player would be the improved startup speeds each generation of BD player has.

As fast as today's players are - I had a first generation player that could take five to ten minutes to present a menu - it's somewhat painful when it even takes a minute or two of watching some silly loading animation.

Charles, across the pond British manufacturere like Cambridge Audio and Arcam have been releasing new blu-ray players.
The Arcam player looks to have a simplistic Broadcomm chipset, but they claim superior image is gained by using a 'broadcast quality digital clock'.

A recent shootout has suggested this Arcam has better image quality than the Oppo-95, which uses the technically superior QDEO 2 image processor.

I notice your DX-5 also uses upgraded clocks, how important do you think this factor is regarding overall image quality?

I have to plead a bit of ignorance here as even though we have a sample '93, I haven't spent much time with it. Does it really start up much faster than the '83? I'm sure there is a thread on this forum that discusses it, but it was not mentioned as a difference between the two models by Oppo.

The main breakthrough with the '83 was that it used a MediaTek chipset. Previous players used chipsets that took between 30 and 60 seconds to load. The MediaTek uses an ARM processor core that is very fast. But I don't think there is a big difference between the processor core on the '83 and the '93 that would lead to faster loading times.

MediaTek is really leading the way with chipsets. Their DVD chipset was the first one to eliminate both the "chroma bug" and also the layer-change pause. Their Blu-ray chipset was not the first to market, but it was far faster than anything else, including the previous speed champ, the PlayStation 3. I'm not sure if there is much room for further improvement in that area, but perhaps someone out there has experience with the '93 and can let us know.

There are many, many factors that affect image quality. Some of the most important have been discussed on this thread, just a page or so up, regarding isolation of the video and the audio.

As far as the player itself, we have been making video players for ten years. We threw every trick in the book at the DX-5 and ended up with a superb image. However, we didn't apply the changes one at a time to see how much of a difference they made. So unfortunately, I cannot say how much difference just the clock makes.

The '83 and DX-5 use the video processor made by DVDO (EDIT: This company is actually now called Anchor Bay Technology, or ABT). We have worked with that team from the very beginning, back in 1998. It was started by a group of guys that left Apple, and they are very, very sharp. I honestly don't think that it is possible to do a better job of video processing than they do, provided that you start with good source material (such as is found on an optical disc).

On the other hand, the '93 offers streaming video. The available bandwidth is much, much lower than what is offered by Blu-ray. So even though it may be a "1080p" picture, there are going to be compression artifacts and other possible image defects. The QDEO (which is a descendant of the old Genesis video processor EDIT: I was referring to Genesis Microchip, who purchased the rights to manufacture the Faroudja chips) is apparently focused on that end of the market.

It also offers more powerful features aimed at "fixing" a bad picture, such as edge and detail "enhancement" that some people enjoy. But in my experience, that is like a hi-fi system with a boosted tweeter. It may sound "impressive" for a while, but then you tire of it. My preference is for the least processing possible. When things are done correctly, with a good display and good light control, that is the road that leads to an image that is the most like film (or digital in some cases nowadays!) in a good theater.

There are really only two things I want a video processor to do, and I want it to do it at the highest possible level -- deinterlacing and scaling. That means that if you have a 1080p Blu-ray disc and a 1080p display that the video chip is doing absolutely nothing to the signal. Where it is really needed is with DVDs or if you don't have a 1080p display or if you are watching a concert video shot in 1080i.

No, the -83 is actually faster to startup than the -93 and -95. They all eject the tray in about 2 seconds from power off, but complete boot time for the -83 is around 11 seconds for the -83 and more like 30 for the -93/-95.

I believe the increase is due to a larger operating system in the newer players, needed to support the networking functions like Netflix.

-Bill