A new search begins. Should I DAC (Do Another Charge) or not?

I've tried a couple, complete waste of money, kinda like fancy wires.

oldtexasdog, here's a good reading material for you.

No.

Different DACs do sound different, though the difference is fairly subtle. Doing direct (and sometimes blind) A/B switching between various DACs I've had consistent preferences. For example I preferred the built in DAC in the $90 Denon 1940ci to the external $300 V-DAC. I also preferred the DAC in the $350 Onkyo C-SVL5 over the 1940ci. Would I have noticed these differences without direct (and quick) A/B switching? Probably not. But is it worth it to me to pay a couple hundred extra for the small difference that I know exists? In my case the answer is yes.

Do you mean you would pay a couple hundred extra for the non-existent audible difference because your perception tells you otherwise?

It's an audible difference that's only easily apparent with direct A/B comparisons. That doesn't make it non-existent. In my case the extra $250 got me a lot more than the noticeable DAC improvement: I got a much quieter player (no disc spinning noise), better build quality, better integration with amp (same brand so same remote), and it's much better looking.

Probably not the most "bang for the buck", but a good DAC can make a great improvement in my experience.

To me, the difference between the DAC in my Squeezebox and a good external DAC was very audible. I much prefer the sound of the external DAC (which was a Peachtree Nova used as a DAC only). No blind tests, just switching inputs back and forth on the preamp with the remote control. You should really try out a DAC in your system and make your own conclusion.

For me, yes.

I added a Channel Islands VDA2 with companion power supply and immediately noticed a huge improvement.

Exactly! What do you have to lose and you can draw your own conclusion if it's worthwhile in your system.

What do you think about the thread linked in post #3?

I'm guessing that you are referring to lag time and it's affect on aural memory. I know of contradicting result from direct A/B comparisons where switching was done very quickly and the volume levels of both players were matched within 0.2 db. There would be measurable difference but if the audible difference to our ears existed, the listeners would have been able to distinguish it every time. By the way, it was a blind test and the results were negative.


As for the spinning noise, $125 DVD player doesn't have that issue. Well, it does if you put your ear within 2 feet from it but how many people set it up that close? Build quality, you mean the durability? As for the looks, that's hard to argue.

The spinning noise from my old 1940ci could be heard across the room while music was playing for certain discs. It was incredibly annoying. Clearly not all DVD players are this bad, but mine certainly was (again, only for certain discs).

By build quality, I mean things like weight of player, thickness of power cord, flimsiness of tray, etc. Ergonomically everything just feels more substantial.

Because I'm using this solely for 2 channel music, I also like that the Onkyo lacks all the clutter associated with a DVD player.

Geekhd, I don't know where you are located, but you are welcome to drop by and we can do our own listening tests. I can assure you that an external DAC can make a very audible difference in a system. Whether or not you prefer the difference an external DAC makes in a particular system depends entirely on your preferences.

Yes, I did glance at the thread in #3, but it really doesn't mean much to me. I know what sounds good to my ears and that's all I care about in this hobby. I may be wrong, but you seem more concerned with proving people wrong with science and measurements than enjoying the music. That's fine if that's what you're into, but please remember that some folks are willing to spend money on their system even if it doesn't make a measurable improvement. That is their choice to make. If they notice an improvement and it makes them happy, then who are you to rain on their parade?

Now, if you are are just trying to justify not making upgrades to your own system and saving money, then I can completely relate.

Sounds like it was defective. I have 2 1940's, completely silent from 6 inches away, even with the volume all the way down. I also bought and setup a couple for friends, also silent.


Yeah, you really need a thick power cord for the massive 15 watts that the Denon draws.


What "clutter" is associated with a DVD player? Isn't the Onkyo bigger than the Denon?

You know all motorcycles are the same, right? They all have two wheels and get you from point A to point B and back. I hope you don't spend too much money on a motorcylce that will do the same thing as a less expensive motorcycle.

Perhaps. But as I said it only happened with certain discs. So maybe you just don't have the type of disc which does it, or haven't noticed.



You don't see the value of build quality? The tray in the 1940ci is an absolute joke. A thicker power cord is likely to last longer than a thinner one. A heavier player is less susceptible to vibration. I wouldn't expect the 1940ci to last very long. Good thing you bought so many backups.



I'm referring to buttons/outputs/lights/indicators/etc that aren't related to 2 channel audio. Also some of the Denon audio settings need a TV to configure.

I believe you. It's usually the difference in output voltage at the terminal. They do vary from DAC to DAC and CDP to CDP. Once you match that voltage during testing, the audible difference becomes much much harder to notice, more like they become indistinguishable regardless of the price difference between equipments compared. There are some exceptions but I don't think you are referring to that, unless you've performed the voltage match during your listening tests. Did you? If not, you should try it before inviting people over for listening tests.


I agree, what I prefer depends on my own preference.


That's fine.


I don't. My replies aren't exclusively to you or anyone who just won't listen and think about. There are many lurkers on this forum looking to learn about AV gears and application of them (I was and still am one of them). While it's none of my business what people buy with their money, when they come on a public forum like this and start posting claims without any evidences to back up with or make no distinction between evidence and opinion, I certainly can call it out.


I can relate to you because I used to be like you. I have done what you are doing (posting such replies on internet forums). Thanks to members on various forums who took time to call things out, I had an opportunity to learn the right things in audio and end up with a fantastic system without wasting money. I hope you will have the same opportunity as well some day.

Well stated, geekhd.

Well, how many plugging, unpluggin and moving CDP around do you do daily?

I've never in my life had an electronic device of any kind which outlived its original power cord. The only power cords I've ever had to replace were on lamps—and they were several decades old, at least.

The tray seems fine to me, it only needs to hold a disc, I don't plan on sitting on it. As far as the power cord, I've never worn out a power cord on anything, audio related, or not. So many backups? I bought two players. Believe it or not, some households have more than 1 TV.

You guys must all drive Geo Metro's

Clearly everyone has different value functions with respect to what they purchase. For my audio setup: better sound quality + better looks + better build quality + better integration is easily worth $250. Honestly, I would have paid an extra $250 just for the sound quality difference I observed, so all the other aspects are just icing on the cake.

Hardly. My other disc player retails for $850. I just don't try to justify it with magical sound quality claims. I bought it because I like it, it has the features I want, and holds all my discs on a hard drive.

The Denon is just for DVD's, but there isn't any difference in SQ. As far as the build quality claims, you could have purchased 4 1940's for less than you paid for the Onkyo. Which do you think will last longer, one Onkyo, or 4 Denon's?

Ok, then lets talk about the sound quality. When you made that observation, did one device play at louder volume than the other? If so, by how much in terms of decibels?

Obviously 4 Denon's are likely to last longer. But I'd rather pay more for one nice player than have 4 that aren't up to my standards