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What Plasma set produces the whitest whites? - Page 2

post #31 of 100
The Vizio VP422 was WAYY too bright... probably as bright as an LCD.

It didn't have good black levels, but I would imagine it had plenty of brightness to rival any LCD.

Disclosure:
I have a Samsung, and if I were buying an entry level today it'd be a Panasonic (sub $900), midrange a Samsung (650 series+), and if I had tons of cash I'd still get a Pioneer.
post #32 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probe 2C View Post

Disclosure:
I have a Samsung, and if I were buying an entry level today it'd be a Panasonic (sub $900), midrange a Samsung (650 series+), and if I had tons of cash I'd still get a Pioneer.

I really don't understand why people still think this. Pioneer's aren't "tons of cash" anymore. You can get the Pioneer Kuro 500-M for ~$1,700 online and it's pretty much one of the top Pioneer's available.

That's still a good amount, but it's about the same as I paid for my B860, and I would much rather have the Pioneer.
post #33 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloggerdude View Post

I really don't understand why people still think this. Pioneer's aren't "tons of cash" anymore. You can get the Pioneer Kuro 500-M for ~$1,700 online and it's pretty much one of the top Pioneer's available.

That's still a good amount, but it's about the same as I paid for my B860, and I would much rather have the Pioneer.

Is the stand included? If not how much?
Are speakers included? If not how much?
Is a tuner built-in? If not how much?

What is the shipping damage percentage rate?
Is 50" big enough?
How much are the 60" inches at Best Buy or Amazon?

Please give simple, straight answers so we may understand your point-of-view and learn objectively!
post #34 of 100
Does anyone still use the tv speakers on their main display if it is a $1500+ pdp??
Same with the tuner??
The stand, now that is something important to many.

There was nothing mentioned about 60".
post #35 of 100
Stands can be bought for under $100. Mine was free w/ purchase.
It has an internal amp so any cheap set of speakers will work, as will the Pioneer factory speakers from other models.
How many people use an OTA tuner these days?
Buy from a reputable authorized dealer and shipping damage is covered via a replacement or refund.
Best Buy and Amazon are not the only stores that sell 60" Kuros.
post #36 of 100
This dear friends of why not to come to AVS for the simple-straight truth. I'm not going to argue with these rationalizations and spin.

How much is the desirable ISF firmware update too?

Excuse me while i go duct table a pair of cheap computer speakers to my expensive TV. Huge wife acceptance factor awaiting!

P.S. Thankfully no guns are allowed in me house!
post #37 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

How much is the desirable ISF firmware update too?

A whopping $100.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Excuse me while i go duct table a pair of cheap computer speakers to my expensive TV. Huge wife acceptance factor awaiting!

The significantly more expensive Pioneer 111 and 151 are available for those who are too cowed by the resident female to make their own decisions.
post #38 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

This dear friends of why not to come to AVS for the simple-straight truth. I'm not going to argue with these rationalizations and spin.

How much is the desirable ISF firmware update too?

Excuse me while i go duct table a pair of cheap computer speakers to my expensive TV. Huge wife acceptance factor awaiting!

P.S. Thankfully no guns are allowed in me house!

You're the only one doing any spinning.

The cost of a stand for the 500M is a verifiable fact.
The ability for speakers (including matching Pioneer factory speakers) to be plugged into the display is a verifiable fact.
The return policy of many dealers is a verifiable fact.
Create a poll asking how many people watch HDTV over the air instead of through a cable/satellite box or similar and see what the numbers tell you.

The idea that you want factory built-in speakers instead of adding your own or simply going through an AVR is your own personal spin on the situation.

But yes, please, stop arguing. Stick to things that you're good at, whatever those may be.
post #39 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Is the stand included? If not how much?
Are speakers included? If not how much?
Is a tuner built-in? If not how much?

What is the shipping damage percentage rate?
Is 50" big enough?
How much are the 60" inches at Best Buy or Amazon?

Please give simple, straight answers so we may understand your point-of-view and learn objectively!

Hahaha, wow, who peed in your cheerios this morning? I was simply commenting on the fact that people still think Pioneer's are ludicrously expensive, when they're really not.

As for the other points, my peers have already done a more than adequate job of answering your "questions."
post #40 of 100
The external matching Pioneer speakers ($389) actually look quite nice and would seem essential for wall mounting. The Samsung 860, while thinner and 40% more energy efficient has terrible built-in sound quality. While the thin panel form-factor looks good, it sounds terrible.

As for the original poster whitest whites question, Panasonic has the answer:
"It is more complicated to achieve "real deep black and unsaturated brightness" on a 50-inch screen but Panasonic is delivering just that, Miyai says. New phosphors and high-speed impulse control from Panasonic enhance its plasma 3D images, according to Miyai."
http://www.cepro.com/article/panason..._tv_dominance/
post #41 of 100
Oh OK.

I'm going to go take a nap for the next 7-10 years, but be sure to tap me on the shoulder when that 3D stuff comes to Sunday Night Football.
post #42 of 100
Panasonic marketing is fun.

Say, whatever happened to those "infinite contrast" panels that we were supposed to see by now?
post #43 of 100
If 3d ever catches on it'll be years. Personally i have no desire and find 3d stuff annoying at the least.
post #44 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Is the stand included? If not how much?
Are speakers included? If not how much?
Is a tuner built-in? If not how much?

What is the shipping damage percentage rate?
Is 50" big enough?
How much are the 60" inches at Best Buy or Amazon?

Please give simple, straight answers so we may understand your point-of-view and learn objectively!

Since I just recently received my KRP-500M Pioneer, I will answer. Stand is $100. The tuner is not needed, virtually everyone has a cablebox or sat receiver. Obviously speakers are not included, but I guess you knew that since this is a monitor. 50" or 60" is up to the individual. Best Buy doesn't carry these, but who would buy from them anyway?

You obviously don't like Pio, trouble admitting that the KRP series monitors blow away what you have? Read D-Nice's review, and the comments from everyone who owns one, these are the bests sets available today. The 500M can be had delivered with stand for $1800. I believe it is by far the best value on the market and delivers an unmatched PQ.

Back to the OP's question, I believe the whites on this set are fantastic and it has great pop, especially after calibration. Get one of these before they are gone.
post #45 of 100
The point here is members should given straight, simple answers and be left to make their own decisions.

On the contrary I recently saw the 50" Pioneer PRO-101 Signature next to the 500M. The 101 had superior blacks and the clarity of the latest Samsungs. It was awesome. I would have bought one for $2k, but it was $3700.

Everyone is stating they don't need a OTA tuner. Why not simple present the facts and let members decide for themselves?
For example, consumers still do not have to pay for advertiser supported TV, even if they have been conditioned to think otherwise. If one buys the Dish Pal DVR for $350 it comes with a built-in ATSC tuner.

The stand lists for $200 and I've had dealers quote it to me, hoping it would be after the sale. Others resorted to buying a different stand on Ebay and claim it "works" and then adding cheap Radio Shack speakers

The shipping damage rate is a hard-to-believe 40%. The cheapest prices are from unauthorized dealers, who would be the most difficult to work with if there was shipping damage. Remember only the store/shipper can file a damage claim, and payment is only made to them. This process can take months, especially if the damage was thought to have occured before this shipment. The store will tell you that you are the owner, yet they are in complete control and you have no rights. Then the store will finally say (several months for now) there is no more product left. Think of all the unanswered phone calls you will make. Is it worth take the risk with the odds so high?
Obviously not, which is why the "final last days of the sale" have been going on for many months.

Adding in the desirable firmware upgrade voids the Pioneer warranty.

These are my leasons learned, I hope it helps others.
post #46 of 100
Quote:


On the contrary I recently saw the 50" Pioneer PRO-101 Signature next to the 500M. The 101 had superior blacks and the clarity of the latest Samsungs.

The KRP-500M and PRO-101FD are absolutely identical in terms of PQ.

If you saw a difference they either lied in the source, the settings, or both. Panel assembly, drive assembly, power supply, etc are identical between both.

If both are equally configured, there will be zero difference in black level, "clarity" or anything else.

There's the straight facts for you.

Quote:


Others resorted to buying a different stand on Ebay

I've seen plenty of sealed, Pioneer factory stands for under $100 on Ebay.

Quote:


Adding in the desirable firmware upgrade voids the Pioneer warranty.

You don't know this for certain (and neither do I). Also, the patch is available with an uninstall utility which reverts the display back to factory-stock *if* you fear that your warranty would be in question.

Quote:


Everyone is stating they don't need a OTA tuner. Why not simple present the facts and let members decide for themselves?

This has never been a secret and is often stated when a monitor is recommended for consideration. These types of differences have also resided in a sticky thread on the top of the forum that has been there for months.

Quote:


The cheapest prices are from unauthorized dealers

That's always been the case. KRP-500Ms have been available for under $1800 from authorized dealers, and the 600Ms for around $3000 from authorized dealers. In every case of a cracked panel I've seen here, the buyer was either refunded in full or they ended up with a problem-free replacement.
post #47 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

The KRP-500M and PRO-101FD are absolutely identical in terms of PQ.

There's the straight facts for you.

In every case of a cracked panel I've seen here, the buyer was either refunded in full or they ended up with a problem-free replacement.

In my opinion, the Pioneer passion overflows, all too easily. Here opinions transform themselves into absolute facts.
Interested readers my go to the StarPower in Southlake TX and see the difference for themselves. I also saw the 60" 151 and they weren’t as good as this PRO-101 either. This observation would account for the substantial price premium.
post #48 of 100
I've seen both side-by-side down the street from me in an AV B&M on more than one occassion. They are absolutely identical. Don't believe me? Feel free to browse the parts listings on Pioneer's site. Everything that has to do with PQ shares exactly the same part number. Those who have calibrated both panels agree that they both look completely the same afterwards. These panels are idiosyncratic when it comes to getting their RGB levels set properly. If the 500M was not using the correct RGB setting its black levels would appear elevated.

The 101FD is considered a Signature panel, which includes an extra year of factory warranty, as well has "hand tested" parts and more flexibility in input ports. Combine that with its limited production run and you arrive at the price premium. The 151 uses different components (apart from the obvious difference in size) and its black levels are inferior to the 500M/101FD.
post #49 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

In my opinion, the Pioneer passion overflows, all too easily. Here opinions transform themselves into absolute facts.
Interested readers my go to the StarPower in Southlake TX and see the difference for themselves. I also saw the 60" 151 and they weren't as good as this PRO-101 either. This observation would account for the substantial price premium.

You mean like the opinion you just gave?

I've also seen a calibrated PRO-101 sitting next to a calibrated KRP-500M and they looked identical. As someone else mentioned, perhaps the 500M that you saw wasn't properly calibrated.
post #50 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

The 101FD is considered a Signature panel, which includes an extra year of factory warranty, as well has "hand tested" parts and more flexibility in input ports.

Now we find there is a difference with a trained technician inserted into the manufacturing process. Good old-fashioned Japanese precision? The hand tested (selected?) parts offers a good clue, as the high-end is all about refinement.
post #51 of 100
Now who's putting a spin on things?

If you truly think there would be a difference in PQ when both are equally configured, then you're the one allowing his passion to overflow. The factory tolerances between a Signature series and a non-Signature series panel are tighter. Hence, there will be less factory varation between two Signatures than between others. That becomes entirely moot once you start dialing in the settings.
post #52 of 100
Practically speaking as an engineer I know that complex tolerance errors cannot be nulled-out either perfectly or near perfectly in just the firmware. Superior intrinsic performance (less manufacturing errors) means higher prices. Just ask Intel.

You need to take up your argument with Pioneer. Enough, I’m bored here. Just remember if the 500M had the same PQ as the 101, I would have bought it, as the blacks were a lot inkier. That is my unpaid, first-hand observation.
Over and out
post #53 of 100
If they were a lot inkier, then the problem is very likely in the RGB settings, as I stated above. The 500M was probably set to "Auto" when in many cases it requires a manual setting (depends on your source equipment). If it's not set properly your blacks will turn grey.
post #54 of 100
I agree with a number of HiFiFun's points and I tried to talk myself up to buying the 151 from a local dealer who had a good deal, rather then the buying the KRP-600M, but just like he didn't walk out of that store with a PRO-101 for $1700 more - I couldn't pull the trigger on what was basically the same price difference.

As for his claim that the PRO-101 looked better to him, it's what he saw and that's how he represented it. I agree with him 100% that too many people on the forums make absolute claims on behalf of others when what they're really expressing is an opinion.

For instance, I do appreciate OTA built-in to the TV.

Here's one example:

In the middle of a big storm, the house lost power. When it came back on, our satellite DVRs had to reboot which can be a rather lengthy process. I switched to my 6070's OTA broadcast so I could keep an eye on the various ATSC Doppler weather sub-channels.

On the other hand, I was able to buy a stand for the KRP-600M for about $100 delivered on eBay and it worked out better for me then factory stand because it was from a 60" model with the speakers underneath and hence let my center channel on the stand like I had it with the 6070HD (that I never bothered to install the speakers on).
post #55 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

The cheapest prices are from unauthorized dealers, who would be the most difficult to work with if there was shipping damage.

And so Pioneer is different from other brands in this regard exactly how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Adding in the desirable firmware upgrade voids the Pioneer warranty.

So now you're a lawyer too. Care to substantiate this claim with any actual evidence?

FWIW, tweaking the 8G's color controls located in the Service Menu was alleged by some to void those displays' warranties - and I've yet to hear of a single owner being denied warranty service from Pioneer on that basis.
post #56 of 100
Quote:


As for his claim that the PRO-101 looked better to him, it's what he saw and that's how he represented it.

I have little doubt that that's what he saw but such an observation is by no means an absolute when we have no idea how each panel was configured. I can make my display look pretty awful within 5 seconds of button pressing on my remote.

Had I based my opinion on my display entirely on how similar ones looked in Best Buy, I never would have bought one. There are many things to consider beyond raw impressions gathered while pacing through a store.
post #57 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post

As for his claim that the PRO-101 looked better to him, it's what he saw and that's how he represented it.

The problem is that his claim that blacks on 101's and 500Ms are different isn't borne out by anyone who has taken the time to actually measure them.

And who knows what he "saw" - we only know what he posts, and there is a clear agenda behind that.
post #58 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Superior intrinsic performance (less manufacturing errors) means higher prices. Just ask Intel.

I don't think that statement works as you intended, as less manufacturing errors always leads to higher chip yields from a wafer and lower prices.

Now, sticking with the Intel analogy, often in the past they'd sample parts and pull out the chips capable of faster performance and sell them at a premium. Maybe that's more what you were referring to? The thing is, as the process matures, they'd stop testing everything and since they required more of the cheaper parts, they would just grab a bunch that passed initial testing and sell those. That process led to the situation where someone could buy an inexpensive 2.4 GHz processor meant for the mass market and then potentially pump it up to if they got lucky 4 GHz or the process had matured to the point nearly every chip could go that high. Now if Intel screens a part to be capable of 2.8GHz, but determines it won't run at 3.3GHz, that's what you don't want if you hoped to overclock to much higher speeds.

Anyway, there are numerous reasons the KRP you were looking at it might not have looked as good and somewhere way down the list is manufacturing tolerances. Without eliminating all the possibilities all we have is an observation. Since few people rarely see the two models side-by-side it's not going to be easy to come to any sort of conclusion based on side-by-side observation, but what we do have knowledge of are the calibrator reports for both units. If the ISF calibrators can achieve the same results on both units with consistency, then they are for all intents and purposes the same.
post #59 of 100
I own both the 101 and 500M. The PQ is identical between the two.

Anyone in SC who wants to see these two panels side by side (well one on top and the other right below) in a controlled home environment are welcomed to come by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

I've seen both side-by-side down the street from me in an AV B&M on more than one occassion. They are absolutely identical. Don't believe me? Feel free to browse the parts listings on Pioneer's site. Everything that has to do with PQ shares exactly the same part number. Those who have calibrated both panels agree that they both look completely the same afterwards. These panels are idiosyncratic when it comes to getting their RGB levels set properly. If the 500M was not using the correct RGB setting its black levels would appear elevated.

The 101FD is considered a Signature panel, which includes an extra year of factory warranty, as well has "hand tested" parts and more flexibility in input ports. Combine that with its limited production run and you arrive at the price premium. The 151 uses different components (apart from the obvious difference in size) and its black levels are inferior to the 500M/101FD.
post #60 of 100
Show me proof that hand-selected parts = deeper blacks. Find just one example that proves this. There are many members here who have owned both. It shouldn't be difficult to find an example if it's true. My speakers are THX certified to offer high quality sound. Would they sound any different without that certification? Of course not.

And again, the 500M/600M are built with the same guts as the respective Signature panels. Head on over to Pioneer's parts website and see for yourself. The only remote difference possible in terms of PQ would come from the "hand selected" parts, and I've never seen any evidence whatsoever that such parts reveal any differences in quality. I labored over a 141FD and 151FD nearly a year ago while I was shopping for my next display. Both were in a dark room right next to eachother. There wasn't a scant bit of difference between them in terms of blacks. Zip. Zero. Nada.

The only improved black levels found on ANY 9G panels are those of the 101FD/500M. ALL other 9G panels offer completely identical black level performance - differences in bright rooms due to various AR coatings notwithstanding (the 101FD/500M use the same coating).

Once more, the 500M you saw almost certainly had its RGB levels incorrectly set. They are set to "Auto" from the factory, which will turn blacks grey when using certain source equipment. Peruse the 500M owners thread and you'll find several panicked people who ran into the issue.
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