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Distortion makes audio tracks sound louder than they actually are in my experience. MK, Penngray and I are talking about hitting reference, with little to no distortion.

So, who's got the cold beverages?

That is why I have 10 cup holders. Dbuudo07 is on to something because when I had other speakers playing at reference levels it was louder than what it sounds like now. The funny thing is that now it is more dynamic as well as not as loud. Confused yet? I have tried and experimented with so many processors and amps, even speaker systems. Money does not buy you a guarantee of the results I was looking for. My goal was to have a home theater that can produce a cinematic event like the big THX theaters I have been too. That was my goal and goals vary from person to person. I setup a very nice budget orientated(low) system(active monitors and a B&K processor) for a friend and he replaced it(3 years later) with in wall speakers and a receiver. It now sounds horrible but he likes it better because of the looks, to each their own. He likes loud party music and his new system distorts like crazy playing it but it is loud.

Ok. Here we go. No, I haven't brought a SPL meter and measured ALL of the aforementioned systems of my friends and family. good grief.

But, imperatively, I HAVE measured my own rig. And with that important information, one can arrive at the reasonable conclusion that comparable gear, in a similar environment, should reach comparable levels, barring any major distinctions.

As far as data? Like what? A photo of an SPL meter in my living room, showing a 100+ db output, LOL? Then we would just argue over the probable distortion that we couldn't hear through the picture .

Again, reaching 85db levels, without a wheelbarrow of distortion is not terribly difficult -although, as I've already admitted- it does become a bit more onerous in the LFE area. It doesn't require tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, an A/V pro, or a specially designed room. Sure those things help, but certainly are not integral to the process of arriving.


James

Another fun thread. Thanks, Michael.

Ref. levels, regardless of which db level you attribute to it, are just too loud for my ears. It's uncomfortable for an extended period of time, let alone an entire movie!

For demo's I do push it to 85 - 90 db (peaks), but not for long periods.

shane

BTW for specs I you need is the sensitivity of the speaker and its power handling. We can then figure out how much power one needs from their sitting distance. It is not hard. It is an estimate but fun. Remember that the room will play a huge role in this.

That brings up another issue. Someone can have a perfect room with perfect gear and someone still might not like it loud. Some people don't like surround. My wife now doesn't mind reference levels but she still likes it like watching TV because it won't startle her. She likes it loud for scary movies though.

Well aware of this simple formula, thanks.

So, AGAIN, REFERENCING my very simple, easily attained, example, who here is willing to challenge that it can't sustain reference level ouput in a 20X20 room at a sound quality that is deemed "acceptable" to the vast majority of the populace?

I realize the last term is vague, but lord knows there's not one that could be used that would be deemed worthy by all.

I'd bet a considerable amount of money that my example would indeed play at or above reference level in an average sized room in all but perhaps the deepest reaches of the LFE world. Again, I conclude that this part of the spectrum presents a bit of a hurdle in the world of 105+ db peaks.

I hear some belly-aching about ambiguity. Here is a clear proposal.

James

and, again, as I said above, 85dB isn't the issue. Pretty much any speaker/receiver combo can do that with less than 10 watts of power. The issue is whether your system can cleanly handle the transient peaks -- up to 105dB in the main channels, up to 120dB in the subwoofer channel, and that is AT THE SEATING POSITION -- without clipping, compression, etc.

If it can't do that, your system can't do reference levels, by definition.



good thing reference level is precisely defined

you seem to be conflating "close enough to be acceptable to most people in any practical situation" with reference level. It can either do it or it can't, no ambiguity needed.

By the way, I all but agree about 85db levels being too loud for an extended period of time. I kept a close eye on my habits for awhile and I rarely went much above 70-75 for movies and it wasn't because my rig became a world of distortion at 85db's either.

85db, while not LOUD to me for a few minutes, is pretty damn loud for an extended amount of time.

James

My proposed scenario eliminates that for you, so fire away.

James

what is the antecedent of "that"?

The majority of the people don't know about AVS and have a flat LCD with a HTIB, what does that mean? Who cares. This is about true reference levels with people on AVS. If I can find the specs of the equipment mentioned then I will tell you if it can hit reference cleanly(which means it is not at it's limits). Again, We need info like seating distance,etc... My room is 21X15 so a 20 x 20 room is pretty big.

Not in a well designed/treated room with great speakers. You would be amazed!

Its like driving a 100K Mercedes down the high way at 100MPH...you have no idea you are going that fast.

2 experiences I know pretty well and its experience that people have to experience to understand what Im saying.

batpig
"and, again, as I said above, 85dB isn't the issue. Pretty much any speaker/receiver combo can do that with less than 10 watts of power. The issue is whether your system can cleanly handle the transient peaks -- up to 105dB in the main channels, up to 120dB in the subwoofer channel, and that is AT THE SEATING POSITION -- without clipping, compression, etc."


Yes, you can put together (and I propose more than a few have) a HT that meets this criteria for a relatively small amount of money- apparently this is one aspect penngray and I agree upon.

I will say though this "120db output in the subwoofer" channel is new to me, admittedly. I was more familiar with the 105db peaks.


120db peaks on and off for 2 hours at ANY frequency are dangerous and certainly nothing I want to expose myself to.

James

Movies have HUGE peaks....so how many here can have zero clipping at reference levels.

Can your speakers play above 115dB @ 1m? Do you have enough Watts per channel to produce the SPL required at your listening distance which on average is 10 to 12 feet meaning its a 9-12dB drop.....its all numbers and just because some like to post "This is loud" that is loud stuff its all not meaningful enough to the discussion.

85dB isnt loud based on charts and will not hurt your hearing at all for 2 or more hours (time of an average movie). 85dB means at listening position means 97dB at 1m, meaning 117+dB peaks during the best action scenes.....do you clip?

Surely integral to the dialogue here.

James

The def tech' s posted are 91 db's sensitive and can handle 200 watts
91=1 watt
94=2 watts
97=4 watts
100=8 watts
103=16 watts
106=32 watts
Let's drop that 12 db's assuming a 12 feet sitting distance
106-12=94at 32 watts
94=32 watts
97=64 watts
100=128 watts
103=256 watts
106=512 watts
Those speakers will start compressing at 128 watts and can't even handle the wattage required for true THX ref peaks at 12 feet away. That onkyo can't put out enough watts as well so in a room at 12 feet that system you posted will not do it, not even close.

Seems to me no one here is proposing the ridiculous notion that it: "sounds loud to me, so it must be reference"...certainly not I, anyways.

Again, here's what I'm maintaining, for those who seem to consistently overlook it:

I've measured my home theater to produce a 90+ db output with peaks 105+. I sit about 11 1/2 feet away in a room about 16X17. I do not have hearing protection on hand and choose not to go any louder.


I also proposed that friends and family have very comparable systems in similar (not identical) rooms. This, while not measured as scientific fact, leads me to believe that they can likely equal or better my own results.

this is not that deep.


James

I voted for listening at REF even though I usually listen at -10db. Sometimes if demoing I'll go to +15db above REF. It's fun when the neighbors across the field are gone. I could only get to about +5 back when I had my Bose system, but since I picked up my NHT superzeros and my pack of T-amps it really gives it that extra zing. My 2 Sony 12" 300w subwoofers make it seem like King kong is in the room with you! Sometimes they shake the house so bad that the drywall pops out at the seams and it kills my wifes flowers in her garden. It's a lot of deebez.

I have no idea where the 200 watt power handling you posted comes from, as DT's site lists the following for the BP 10's as far as power handling is concerned:
Recommended Associated Amplifier Power :20 - 300 watts

And seeing that I owned a pair that I pushed hard at times with an Adcom GFA 555 (rated at 200 RMS into 8 OHMs) without a sweat, I'm a bit more apt to go with DT's website on this one.

James

Peaks are split seconds and over 2 hours its 100% safe to have 120dB peaks considering the majority of time its low frequencies (400Hz and lower) with the sub getting the biggest peaks and 120dB @ 25Hz is more about pressurizing the room then loudness.

Look at the charts and you will realize that people can do 85dB 8 hours a day!

It's loud based on my ears and my preferences. That's all I really care about.

shane

That's 91db's from ONE watt, at ONE METER, mind you- which of course is better than 3 feet 3 inches from the loudspeaker. Moving 8 feet away from the correct locale does not drop output 12db's.

James

and that is cool but you might have a highly reflective room and you might actually have other issues.

85dB in my room isnt that loud for movies, its just average.

thanks for supporting my claim that 120db peaks are dangerous!

say what?

James

I don't see hip-hop music at traffic light on that chart!

Even at 300 watts it is not enough. Even if 300 watts was enough it would be at their limits and compressing like crazy with high distortion. You don't want to run anything near it's max, they never sound good there(any speaker). I did not even figure out the sub part which I know won't do it, but placement is everything. BTW, I got the spec from amazon. I would trust their site too but it still does not matter in this case. With these speakers you have to sit much closer to them . In that case you can make them reach reference levels. Like I said it will depend. I sit even farther than 12 feet so they would not be a consideration for me(again, I have different goals).

penngray,

I don't think anyone is really too worried about it. Like shane said, it's too loud for him. I know I personally get headaches listening around that level for any extended amount of time. Some movies are not that bad- plenty of quiet passages and "breaks". But I could never listen to a 50 minute foo fighter album at 85-90....I know cause I actually tried! Sounded great in action, I paid later.

To each, his own, you know?

James