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Panasonic PT-AE4000 MSRP $1999 - Page 265

post #7921 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by manthatsnice View Post

CIH, my man. Need to go CIH...

That's what I'm doing...just using the zoom. If you want to send me a nice scope lens, feel free, I'll PM you my address Until then I can't justify spending more on a lens than just about rest of the equipment (including furniture) in my small room.
post #7922 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivartk View Post

Exactly, my masking on the bottom won't go up far enough to block the entire image (while zoomed viewing 2.35:1 material). In essence I need to raise the image digitally which can only be accomplished (to stay on the screen) by lowering the projector physically. Since this is only really noticeable with one movie (The Dark Knight) and my setup is working good, I'm not going to mess with it. The dark walls make is so you don't see the "black bars" on the bottom part that I can't mask.

You do realize the the "electronic masking" doesn't actually block the light path anyway. All it does it project the darkest color possible, which is the same as the black bars that are coded into the video. So even though you are trying to use the masking it still projects the image below the screen.
post #7923 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivartk View Post


That's what I'm doing...just using the zoom. If you want to send me a nice scope lens, feel free, I'll PM you my address Until then I can't justify spending more on a lens than just about rest of the equipment (including furniture) in my small room.

Agree on the cost of a lens. Not worth it IMO. But I still don't understand what you are saying. If it is Constant Image Height, why would bottom masking not cover for 2.35? You shouldn't need any more or different masking with 2.35 than with 1.78, correct? Your post makes it sound like there is a difference in your setup.

Thanks,
Cory
post #7924 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by manthatsnice View Post

Agree on the cost of a lens. Not worth it IMO. But I still don't understand what you are saying. If it is Constant Image Height, why would bottom masking not cover for 2.35? You shouldn't need any more or different masking with 2.35 than with 1.78, correct? Your post makes it sound like there is a difference in your setup.

Thanks,
Cory

Without the lens you "zoom" the 2.35 image to fill the 2.35 screen. The image size is still 1.78 however, now the black bars "spill" outside of the screen. (above and below). The projector has a "masking system" that covers the black bars. Our projector does like "Type B" on the image below. The left being 1.78 images and the right being a zoomed 2.35 image. Due to my setup, the lower mask doesn't reach all the way to the bottom of the screen.



The projector blocks the light and the image is not projected on the wall in the masked area.
post #7925 of 8492
You are covering an electronic black bar with an electronic black bar, why?
post #7926 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by deromax View Post

You are covering an electronic black bar with an electronic black bar, why?

It isn't an electronic black bar as on a black image, you can see the difference between the black bar on the source disc and the "masking" that is created by the projector. There is no noticable light through the masking. I think the projector turns off some pixels in the masked area so no (or very very little) light is output.

I can see this by pausing a movie, holding up a white sheet of paper and moving the masking settings, you can see the black bars of the source move as the masking is adjusted.
post #7927 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivartk View Post


Without the lens you "zoom" the 2.35 image to fill the 2.35 screen. The image size is still 1.78 however, now the black bars "spill" outside of the screen. (above and below). The projector has a "masking system" that covers the black bars. Our projector does like "Type B" on the image below. The left being 1.78 images and the right being a zoomed 2.35 image. Due to my setup, the lower mask doesn't reach all the way to the bottom of the screen.

The projector blocks the light and the image is not projected on the wall in the masked area.

I understand what you're saying but I still don't understand why you're having a (teeny tiny) problem.

For what it's worth, I aligned my projector very near the top if the screen. When I watch 1.78, I have physical, framed velvet masks on each side of a 2.35 wide screen. Then when I zoom to 2.35, the image remains at the top and I remove the masks.

It's very simple for me. Without knowing all of your constraints, it would seem to me that if your screen is actually at 2.35, then when you watch 2.35 content (zoomed) it should be EXACTLY the right size. Then I would think all that would be necessary would be to add a lens shift to compensate for the location of the perfectly sized image.

Btw, hope you don't think I'm trying to belittle you or argue or whatever. I'm actually trying to learn because I've only had my pj hooked up a short time.

Thanks,
Cory
post #7928 of 8492
So...with income tax return time having arrived, and having just received my overpayment back from the government, anyone know of a great place to buy one of these projectors? I looked at Projector People, but it is still slightly out of my price range by just a few hundred dollars...I will have it eventually, but I do not want to miss out on the rebate. Anywhere else to look?
post #7929 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by manthatsnice View Post

I understand what you're saying but I still don't understand why you're having a (teeny tiny) problem.

For what it's worth, I aligned my projector very near the top if the screen. When I watch 1.78, I have physical, framed velvet masks on each side of a 2.35 wide screen. Then when I zoom to 2.35, the image remains at the top and I remove the masks.

It's very simple for me. Without knowing all of your constraints, it would seem to me that if your screen is actually at 2.35, then when you watch 2.35 content (zoomed) it should be EXACTLY the right size. Then I would think all that would be necessary would be to add a lens shift to compensate for the location of the perfectly sized image.

Btw, hope you don't think I'm trying to belittle you or argue or whatever. I'm actually trying to learn because I've only had my pj hooked up a short time.

Thanks,
Cory

I think part of my problem (although it only is an issue for one movie) is that I'm using the shortest throw distance for my 125" 2.35:1 screen. The calculator calls for 13' and I'm at about 13' 3". I can align the picture on the screen just fine using the digital shift down (after setting the proper height for 16:9), however the lower mask when set to it's maximum amount won't come all the way up to the bottom of the image. The top mask is just the opposite, I barely have to use any mask. So, I think it is my screen size and throw distance that cause me to move the picture way up (digitally) to hit my screen at it's current height. Hey, but I'm limited in the space in my room and can't move the projector any further back. For one movie, I can live with it

Note: ceiling mounted setup.
post #7930 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

So...with income tax return time having arrived, and having just received my overpayment back from the government, anyone know of a great place to buy one of these projectors? I looked at Projector People, but it is still slightly out of my price range by just a few hundred dollars...I will have it eventually, but I do not want to miss out on the rebate. Anywhere else to look?

I just bought mine about 3 weeks ago and projector people was the best price I could find. Get assigned a sales rep, make him an offer and see if you can negotiate. I negotiated about $70 off of my new screen that way
post #7931 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivartk View Post

I think part of my problem (although it only is an issue for one movie) is that I'm using the shortest throw distance for my 125" 2.35:1 screen. The calculator calls for 13' and I'm at about 13' 3". I can align the picture on the screen just fine using the digital shift down (after setting the proper height for 16:9), however the lower mask when set to it's maximum amount won't come all the way up to the bottom of the image. The top mask is just the opposite, I barely have to use any mask. So, I think it is my screen size and throw distance that cause me to move the picture way up (digitally) to hit my screen at it's current height. Hey, but I'm limited in the space in my room and can't move the projector any further back. For one movie, I can live with it

Note: ceiling mounted setup.

This is why many of the old hands use a wide black velvet mask around the outside of the screen. A GOOD black velvet will soak 95% of the maximum light output from the AE4000.

In fact, if I have the projector zoomed out to 2.35:1 and play a 1.85:1 movie, it will often be several minutes before I realize it!
post #7932 of 8492
This is not an actual shutter. There is no such thing as turning off pixels in the context of an LCD system. The shutter's black should not be any darker than the bars on the disc, providing your projector's brightness is setup right.

But more power to you if it works well in your case!
post #7933 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivartk View Post

It isn't an electronic black bar as on a black image, you can see the difference between the black bar on the source disc and the "masking" that is created by the projector. There is no noticable light through the masking. I think the projector turns off some pixels in the masked area so no (or very very little) light is output.

This is not an LED projector. It is an LCD projector. You can't just "turn off some pixels". It doesn't work that way.

Quote:


I can see this by pausing a movie, holding up a white sheet of paper and moving the masking settings, you can see the black bars of the source move as the masking is adjusted.

All that means is either your BD/DVD player doesn't output the lowest possible level for black or your source material (the disc itself) didn't use the blackest possible black when adding the letterbox. Edit: or you don't have the projector calibrated correctly.
post #7934 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnl View Post

This is not an LED projector. It is an LCD projector. You can't just "turn off some pixels". It doesn't work that way.



All that means is either your BD/DVD player doesn't output the lowest possible level for black or your source material (the disc itself) didn't use the blackest possible black when adding the letterbox. Edit: or you don't have the projector calibrated correctly.

If you do a bit of research, you will find out that the digital value of the 'black level' on a Bluray disk is not zero (0) but 16 (and the 'white level' is actually 235 and not 255). The electronic masking of the AE4000 sets the masked area to a true zero level and thus it will look visibly darker than 'black' bars at the top and bottom of a normal 2.35:1 Bluray disk. (These offsets were deliberately done to prevent some serious image issues when when the digital signal was converted to an analog signal for use in CRT technology.)
post #7935 of 8492
Further research will reveal that level 16 is irrelevant, since your projector considers this value as absolute black and displays it accordingly : the darker it can. If it was not the case, you'd have washed-out blacks instead of real blacks.

Only badly mastered discs or projector adjusted wrong will reveal a difference between the black bars and the electronic masking.

As for elevating the black level of the video signal (called the Setup or Pedestal and at a level of 7.5 IRE in north america), this exists only in an analog video signal/device. A DVD/BD player analog output will add the correct pedestal itself, it's not on the disc.

And it's not in the HDMI signal either.
post #7936 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank1940 View Post

If you do a bit of research, you will find out that the digital value of the 'black level' on a Bluray disk is not zero (0) but 16 (and the 'white level' is actually 235 and not 255). The electronic masking of the AE4000 sets the masked area to a true zero level and thus it will look visibly darker than 'black' bars at the top and bottom of a normal 2.35:1 Bluray disk. (These offsets were deliberately done to prevent some serious image issues when when the digital signal was converted to an analog signal for use in CRT technology.)

If you do a bit of research you will find out that on a properly calibrated display 16 will be indistinguishable from 0, or nearly so. Blacker-than-black should look the same as black. Thus the digital masking of the 4000 should look the same as the letterboxes, unless the letterboxes aren't 16 (which is true on some discs) or your brightness is set too high.

I did initially think that letterboxes would be blacker-than-black, but that doesn't appear to be the case.
post #7937 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnl View Post

If you do a bit of research you will find out that on a properly calibrated display 16 will be indistinguishable from 0, or nearly so. Blacker-than-black should look the same as black. Thus the digital masking of the 4000 should look the same as the letterboxes, unless the letterboxes aren't 16 (which is true on some discs) or your brightness is set too high.

I did initially think that letterboxes would be blacker-than-black, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

True up to an extent. Many of the calibrating disks actually have a 'Black than Black' bar to attempt to set the black level (via the "brightness" control). However, I have found that it very difficult to get it accurately set. The next problem is that there is the dynamic Iris (default is 'on') on the AE4000. That device will 'pump' the black levels up on scenes with high brightness levels. All of these affect what is happening in those black bars that are on the top and bottom of 2.35:1 material. You can gain a bit of black by using the Masking Area since it will use a digital zero on the area of the panel (rather than a 16) where it is adjusted to cover.

As I said in a previous post, the best way to hide those (almost) Black bars is to use a wide black velvet mask. (Many people have used Fidelio Velvet as it soaks up light like a Black Hole!) My mask is 5.5 inches wide and any spillage beyond that point hits a black curtain. While the black certain will reflect a bit of light, it is far enough removed from the interest point that it is totally unnoticeable.
post #7938 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank1940 View Post


True up to an extent. Many of the calibrating disks actually have a 'Black than Black' bar to attempt to set the black level (via the "brightness" control). However, I have found that it very difficult to get it accurately set. The next problem is that there is the dynamic Iris (default is 'on') on the AE4000. That device will 'pump' the black levels up on scenes with high brightness levels. All of these affect what is happening in those black bars that are on the top and bottom of 2.35:1 material. You can gain a bit of black by using the Masking Area since it will use a digital zero on the area of the panel (rather than a 16) where it is adjusted to cover.

As I said in a previous post, the best way to hide those (almost) Black bars is to use a wide black velvet mask. (Many people have used Fidelio Velvet as it soaks up light like a Black Hole!) My mask is 5.5 inches wide and any spillage beyond that point hits a black curtain. While the black certain will reflect a bit of light, it is far enough removed from the interest point that it is totally unnoticeable.

My entire false wall is Jo-Ann stretch velvet. My two side masking panels (14" w) are of the same material. Its like a big black hole with a big white AT screen of beauty floating in space.

Cory
post #7939 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by manthatsnice View Post

My entire false wall is Jo-Ann stretch velvet. My two side masking panels (14" w) are of the same material. Its like a big black hole with a big white AT screen of beauty floating in space.

Cory

Thanks for the velvet idea. I have curtains top and side, so some velvet below the screen (~10ft x 3.5ft) seems rather affordable.
post #7940 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank1940 View Post

True up to an extent. Many of the calibrating disks actually have a 'Black than Black' bar to attempt to set the black level (via the "brightness" control). However, I have found that it very difficult to get it accurately set. The next problem is that there is the dynamic Iris (default is 'on') on the AE4000.

I've never had a problem adjusting black level with this projector and getting below black to disappear. But I have it in a dedicated room where I can totally control the light. I guess I get spoiled by that. That might not work so well in less friendly settings.

As for the dynamic iris: that was the first thing I changed. It stays off in my theater.

Quote:


As I said in a previous post, the best way to hide those (almost) Black bars is to use a wide black velvet mask.

Agreed!
post #7941 of 8492
Hello, long time lurker, first time poster. Please be gentle. (and sorry for the long post)

I've had one of these projectors for over a month and I'm having an issue with it that I have not seen anyone mention on this forum. I did my best search, but there's no way I have time to read this entire thread so if I missed a discussion on this topic please point me to it.

When saving a zoom/focus setting in one of the 6 memory positions, my unit does not save the image in the exact zoom and focus I intended to save. It always seems to save as a slightly smaller image that is slightly out of focus. And it seems to do this at random, so if I attempt to save a zoom position 3 or 4 times, one of those times it will be close enough to what I wanted so I will keep it. I've also noticed that if I "load" one of my zoom settings and then save that setting in another memory slot, the two memory positions will not match even though they SHOULD be perfect clones of each other. Which makes no sense to me.

I ended up doing a lot of testing because I was attempting to do a CIH setup and set it up with as little overscan as possible in each position, and every time I thought I had it perfect, the next time I loaded a zoom memory the image would shift enough that it was not filling the whole screen and it was driving me crazy. My solution to this issue has been to set it up with a lot of overscan so that even if my image shifts a little, I won't notice it because the image will still be filling the whole screen into the black velvet borders. But this does not fix the focus issue, so sometimes I will manually focus the unit before watching a movie because the zoom memory did not end up in the exact sweet spot.

Anyway, I'm wondering if this is an issue on all of these units or if mine is defective. You guys are somewhat anal retentive so if you all have this issue I'm really surprised nobody has brought it up. The store I bought it from is having trouble talking to Panasonic because their rep was let go recently. And I've tried emailing Panasonic myself but they have not answered. I'd really appreciate any advice you guys can give me.

Thanks!
post #7942 of 8492
I remember seeing a disclaimer about the memory not being exact in one of the manuals. Mine does something similar for one of my settings.
post #7943 of 8492
Does everyone have this problem? If I am goign to have to manually adjust the projector each use, then what is the purpose of the memory?
post #7944 of 8492
1) You may indeed have a defective projector, but most probably...

2) This is an entry level projector. There is certainly more plastic than precision machined steel in the optical mechanism of the Panny, so the memory settings may not be 100% precise!

3) Be sure to have the projector powered at least 30 minutes before setting and saving anything, as the passage from cold to warm will cause the opticals to drift. After a pre-heat period, it should have stabilized. Same thing when you later want to watch a movie : pre-heat 30 minutes before any viewing.

4) I suggest setting the focus by looking at the white lettering instead of the green lines over blue background, as it will be easier. The jagged diagonals like in the N or Z are great to assess the focus.

5) Overscan is a sad fact of life with front projection. You may have noticed it at the commercial theater, sometime to a considerable level. 1/2 inches of overscan should be about just right in a home theater and will conceal slight variations in the opticals and slight keystone or misalignment.

The memory zoom is a convenience feature and most people will find it satisfactory as is. For the demanding videophiles - I include myself - a manual focus recheck is needed at each viewing.
post #7945 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Does everyone have this problem? If I am goign to have to manually adjust the projector each use, then what is the purpose of the memory?

I have never had a problem with lens memory. It always returns to the same settings that I saved, or at least close enough that I can't tell the difference.
post #7946 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnl View Post

I have never had a problem with lens memory. It always returns to the same settings that I saved, or at least close enough that I can't tell the difference.

That is good to know, thank you.
post #7947 of 8492
I have never had any problems either, or heard of any mass problems. Haven't tuched mine in over 1-1/2 years and still hits perfect every time. Your unit may have a problem.

But as said make sure you let it warm up for 30 minutes before making settings. Even though it shuold make that big of a difference, focus mainly.
post #7948 of 8492
Quote:
Originally Posted by deromax View Post

1)

4) I suggest setting the focus by looking at the white lettering instead of the green lines over blue background, as it will be easier. The jagged diagonals like in the N or Z are great to assess the focus.

Nice tip.
post #7949 of 8492
Critical focus also shouldn't be done from the seated position. It should be done by getting up out of your chair and walking right up to the screen looking at it from a distance of just a foot or so, so you can make out the individual pixels, even though "smooth screen" does an excellent job of making their transitional boundaries smoothly blend into one another, yet not make the overall image blurry.

The 30 minutes of warm up is important, yes, also be advised that perfect focus for the center is not necessarily perfect focus for the corners, depending on your throw (zoom setting). I try to get a good balance between the two, heavily biased towards making the center as good as possible.

Quick, short taps on the remote buttons, rather than holding them down, does a great job of making fine, tiny steps of critical focus easy to accomplish.
post #7950 of 8492
My lens memory is spot on every time. No need to refocus or rezoom for any of my stored aspect ratios. And the focus or zoom does not drift at all with run time.
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