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Downunder Theatre MKII - Page 6

post #151 of 283
Thread Starter 
Ok, so I'm bored and this is a shameless bump. FYI, there is a method in all this madness, this living room experiment is all pre-dedicated room planning/experimenting. It'll be DIY all the way, with QSC everything else (cheap (ok affordable) and awesome).

So I was in Perth a few weeks ago, listening to a mate's system that used the Beyma AMT and a 15" AE "mid". I freaked out a bit when I started hearing things in his system that I couldn't in mine. Both measure pretty much the same, so what was it?

It was an image I could hear at his place and not mine. What's causing the problem? Placement. I took the L and R off the wall this afternoon and what do you know, there is that sound.......I suppose there isn't much I can do about this, they're going back on the wall and I cant easily treat between them (well not at all).


I guess I could toe them in a little?

Dennis posted something a while back about 3ft from a wall thing, if not 4" of absorption all over the front wall.....cant really do that. I do have a say over what goes on the speaker baffle though. Its 600 x 600 x 50, at the moment there is 60kg/m^3 polyester there

Would some sort of panel, say 50mm max above and below the TV help?
post #152 of 283
Hi Peter,
I have a little 50mm Supertel you are welcome to procure should you wish.
post #153 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingaling2004 View Post

Hi Peter,
I have a little 50mm Supertel you are welcome to procure should you wish.

At a special discount price of nothing
post #154 of 283
Where's the dogs? LOL
post #155 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Where's the dogs? LOL

LOL, you can't see their hair all over the rug?.....need to vacuum tomorrow.

Edit: Here's one of our Girl, just so you dont feel like you're missing out

post #156 of 283
lol
post #157 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingaling2004 View Post

Hi Peter,
I have a little 50mm Supertel you are welcome to procure should you wish.

That is very kind of you. Lets talk next time I see you. I reckon we could find a use in your room though!?

Cheers,
Pete
post #158 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elill View Post

That is very kind of you. Lets talk next time I see you. I reckon we could find a use in your room though!?

Cheers,
Pete

No problems mate. Oh, and cut out the Canine Glamour shots... it's getting a bit weird on your thread!
post #159 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingaling2004 View Post

Oh, and cut out the Canine Glamour shots... it's getting a bit weird on your thread!

Those pooches are the reason I aint got a room.......got to post something in the interim
post #160 of 283
Hi,

Great amount of info collated at the start of the thread. 2 Questions if you or one of the guys could assist with feedback.

The floor setup you show with battens, insulation with flooring layers on the top. Is that necessary if I am building in a detached shed on a concrete slab at the back of a suburban yard, I want to bring the noise floor of the room down as much as possible, but I have a fairly low roof line around 2m

Second thanks for the link to the GG supplier. What is your thoughts on their ultra foam room kits, seem reasonably priced, just not sure how good they are at providing a one stop solution

Cheers,

Matt
post #161 of 283
Thread Starter 
1. No not needed. You're in OZ obviously? I'd put down a layer of THIS stuff.....just being anal

2. Forget the foam room kits. BUT Andrew Steele who owns Ultrafonic is the real deal. You could engage him as an acoustic consultant without hesitation. Or just hire Dennis Erskine.

I'd not buy GG from them. Its cheaper to get from the US in the tubs. PM Ted White or contact them at www.soundproofingcompany.com I am sure they'll work out something for you.

Another acoustical service is Acoustic Vision in Melbourne. Again, they know their stuff (HAA qualified etc), but they aren't cheap and they use LOTS of RPG product which is expensive. Dennis and Andrew would offer some more affordable treatment options.

Good luck with it!
post #162 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elill View Post

1. No not needed. You're in OZ obviously? I'd put down a layer of THIS stuff.....just being anal

2. Forget the foam room kits. BUT Andrew Steele who owns Ultrafonic is the real deal. You could engage him as an acoustic consultant without hesitation. Or just hire Dennis Erskine.

I'd not buy GG from them. Its cheaper to get from the US in the tubs. PM Ted White or contact them at www.soundproofingcompany.com I am sure they'll work out something for you.

Another acoustical service is Acoustic Vision in Melbourne. Again, they know their stuff (HAA qualified etc), but they aren't cheap and they use LOTS of RPG product which is expensive. Dennis and Andrew would offer some more affordable treatment options.

Good luck with it!

1. Yes, I am in Sydney. What makes that better than gold underlay on concrete?
2. Interested in acoustics, just yet to decide if / who to hire. I hear many great things about Dennis, but wouldn't it be better to have some one come to the room, test and treat, just not sure of the logistics of Dennis
3. Noted and was planning to compare both for best deal
4. Not looking for the room to appear elegant, just to sound good and look good on screen

Thanks for the advice
post #163 of 283
Thread Starter 
1. Its a bit like a GG DD product for the floor and apparently stops/stops some flanking through concrete. If you dont get Angelstep you want felt

2. Dennis layout service is the cheapest you'll find and he happens to be pretty much the best at it so I'd not be concerned. Speak with PeterM, Dennis did everything for that job (full service plans). Either way you'll not have someone in Sydney, Ultrafonic is Brisbane based, AV is Melbourne......there is a local guy but no body likes him

4. Speak with Dennis then, it'll work out cheaper and better. Speak to the Oz Theatre Screen guys for vision related stuff, screen, lens etc

Calibration....depends what gear you're having, if just an AVR well there isn't much you cant do yourself, if you're going to whole hog DSP/EQ route, then again its not that hard to get it somewhat right. There is a guy in Artarmon who can assist, David Spago I think his name it
post #164 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elill View Post

1. Its a bit like a GG DD product for the floor and apparently stops/stops some flanking through concrete.

If his shed is outside, seems the concrete floor is the least of his issues for either sound leaking out or sneaking in. It's all about the walls and how they join the floor (and the ceiling, too, of course). Even then, I doubt that he'd need to worry about disturbing the neighbors. More likely the issue is the neighbor's kids or lawnmowers being audible inside the theater. Now that could be rather difficult to totally eliminate.
post #165 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
More likely the issue is the neighbor's kids or lawnmowers being audible inside the theater



I suppose it softens the impediance of the concrete floor as well? making it closer to the wall construction? This is why I'd use it....depends how particularly particular you want to be
post #166 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

If his shed is outside, seems the concrete floor is the least of his issues for either sound leaking out or sneaking in. It's all about the walls and how they join the floor (and the ceiling, too, of course). Even then, I doubt that he'd need to worry about disturbing the neighbors. More likely the issue is the neighbor's kids or lawnmowers being audible inside the theater. Now that could be rather difficult to totally eliminate.

Sorry won't derail your thread much longer. The walls are just timber studs holding the outer metal sheeting walls. I was planning on putting insulation on walls between studs, then line the room with mdf + GG + 16mm gyprock on all 4 walls & ceilings. I guess doing the floor in the manner allows for a better seal of the room.
post #167 of 283
Thread Starter 
You might want to PM Ted White about that, I dont know.

Forget MDF though, its not water friendly. Ultimate is formply, if you cant afford that, some type of sheet flooring (chipboard, ply, OSB - hard to find here)
post #168 of 283
Thread Starter 
So I added up the build cost this morning, full DIY except some treatments.....$80k........looks like I'll spend some time mucking around in autocad doing some drawings getting it "just right"......Something I am looking into though is CIW, not CIH as I reckon xbox and the tennis/tv would be awesome on a larger screen (found a good thread here on it)

Here are a couple of DIY panels that I have just finished. We've got a pretty bad flutter echo problem in our living room. They have helped somewhat.

The large one is 2400 x 900 and the smaller is about 1500 x 500 - both 50mm thick.

It took me a fair while to figure out a suitable fabric but this one is the business. I used to buy these ready done, but the quote I got from the supplier had gone up twofold and they were already expensive, so I DIY'ed them instead....glad I did





The photos are from a recent trip to the Pilbara - you can check more of em out here if of interest
post #169 of 283
Thread Starter 
So what does one do in the absence of real building? virtual erh building. Here are some ideas for elevations......doesn't really matter too much as anything final will be vetted by Dennis and co at some point, but hey gotta do something when it rains non-stop for 3 weeks. The ceiling thing is supposed to be a RPG Flutter Free Waveform sort of thing.....not sure it'd fit, but I like the look of them.....cant be that hard to DIY....

FloorPlan.jpg

SouthElevation.jpg

ScreenWallWestElevation.jpg

RearElevation.jpg
post #170 of 283
Thread Starter 
HVAC Considerations

Ok, so we've had HVAC installed for the rest of the house and I had the guys install the unit we purchased for the theater. I'll get under there and take a photo at some point.

My understanding is that:

CFM/duct cross-sectional area = velocity

CFM = 390.00 (max for my unit)
Duct cross section (ft) 1.56 (from target FPM below)
FPM 250.00 <<<<<< Target Rate for soundproofing/acoustics

Duct Diameter = 16.91

Area Sq Ft 1.56
Area Sq Inches 224.66

Square Duct Side (inches) 15.00

Now 15" square or 17" round ducts aint going to happen. At lower fan speeds I get lower CFM - it can do CFM 320 and CFM 250, which needs ducts of 15" and 14" respectively or square at 13.6" or 12" respectively.

In summary - I'll need to make the ducts coming into the room as large as possible and possibly redesign the soffits (grrrrr.....!) to an enlarged size to cater for the larger cross sectional area required. This would make them quite large - take for example 15" square scenario - add 4" for insulation lining and add 32mm for DD, thats ~21" in size which is stupid. I guess I could go for a very large, but flatter soffit at the front of the room above the screen.

Will dampers help?

Looks like I need to do some more work on this and see what the minimum CFM should be
post #171 of 283
Turn your soffit into an acoustically lined plenum. spit the air flow from the incoming duct (as large as you can go) two different directions and use long linear grills. I've seen two 6x36 grills that were dead quiet in a room much larger than yours. How many exchanges per hour do you calculate your unit is putting out? That 250 FPM is at the grill face not the duct itself, so if you can dump the air into a box and then have a larger exit from the box it should work.
Edited by BIGmouthinDC - 6/25/12 at 9:15pm
post #172 of 283
Peter,

As Big says ... go rectangular. My two supplies are 1200 x 300mm where they exit the soffit. Calculated FPM is very low. With the system only supplying cold air (even in winter) my HVAC guy thought low velocity would be OK as the cold air will fall. Normally he designs for much higher FPM to cope with the winter condition where he's trying to force the warm air to floor level.

Cheers,
post #173 of 283
Thread Starter 
Cool, thanks fellas - I get it now - larger vent area compared to duct size, further drop in velocity (physics 101)
post #174 of 283
Thread Starter 
Ok, real lame excuse for an update, but hey when you're build is going as slow as mine its acceptable right?

First up, we have a door! no more crawling through the little hatch on the side of the house. I've never hung a door from absolute scratch before, I don't know what all the fuss is about, it was easy. Its a solid core/exterior version of our internal doors. I haven't put seals on it yet. It'll be the first of two doors so I will wait until the proper door is in before I bother with this one.



Next, I have had the Air Con installed. This was done a while back and I am a little concerned about it. The drawings in the manual show a ~6" return, but it doesn't seem to have one. For those in the know is the rear panel where I hook up the return? The first pic shows the supply side (I'll make a plenum for it and hook up to the ducts I'll make)







Here is the rear of it - is this a return? looks a little odd to me





What's next?

I need to get an electrician around to move some cat 6 cables that are in the road and do the "rough in". Plan is for:
1. Soffit lights
2. Behind screen lights
3. Ceiling lights (optional)
4. Sconces

5. Power point on each wall
6. Power point for/in riser
7. Power point for projector
8. Power point for fresh air supply fan (linked back to timer/speed controller)
9. Power point for fresh air return fan (linked back to timer/speed controller)

Cat 6 to projector, riser, all speaker channels

Have I missed anything? (other than speaker cable, which I'll do myself)
post #175 of 283
Never seen a ducted minisplit in person, but I assume you just create a large rectangle plenum on the return side. Then cut in whatever size takeoff you need. FWIW, a single 6" return seems wayyyy too small for a 1 ton AC unit. I think you should be looking at 3.

I think the issue here is the return filter, which would be a pain to clean, even if you cut an access panel into the plenum.

If you are going with a standard return grill (ie not a linear slot grill), you could get a filter grill and put the filter there.. then just remove the one on the unit itself.

Tim
post #176 of 283
Quite simply, you should hire a professional HVAC contractor to run the supply and return lines plus handle the "startup" which typically involves MUCH more than simply turning the unit on. Although I appreciate the "can-do" DIY attitude, there are certain instances where bringing in a licensed professional should be your primary concern.

The only thing I will say is that if you consult dealers for this system, there may be "take offs" available that fit this unit on both the supply and return sides which will provide a transition from the system to standard ducting.
post #177 of 283
I would form a return plenum that is the LxW of the unit and about 18" deep. Use a 12" sticky takeoff to run 12" flex to a 24x24 return filter grill. I ran the numbers and that works well. You can't oversize the return, so if you want to go larger in either respect... go for it.

As TMcG mentions, ther eis some knowledge to the startup. It's not rocket science, but you need the proper equipment to do it. The compressor probably has enough refrigerant in it for 15' of lineset.. any longer or shorter and the refrigerant will need to be adjusted. The lineset also need to be evacuated before you can charge it. Not sure how the connections are made on a minisplit, but typically CAC linesets need to be brazed. They also make an epoxy for gluing the joints.. But that's kind of half-**sed.

Usually you can find a one-man operation or maybe a worker doing side work to evacuate and charge the lineset for you.

Tim
post #178 of 283
Thread Starter 
Thanks all. FWIW the unit has bee commissioned i.e. it works/was tested by the installer - I just need to do the duct work.

I had planned on running a 6" off the supply, into a largish lined duct box which will go through the ceiling, split in two and go off to two linear bar diffusers

In terms of the return, I had thought about a large box hanging off the end with as large as possible ducts coming off it. Again this will run into the ceiling, split in two and go to two bar diffusers.

I hadn't thought about the filter - I might build another box to go in between the unit and the room with a filter in it.

I'll try to do some drawings before I get too carried away....need to buy some GG for the box ducts
post #179 of 283
That's great that the unit is ready to go..

Your plans indicate another room next to the theater; will you be using this unit to cool that room as well?

I think you're underestimating the size of the ducts. You would need a minimum of two 8" or four 6" flex supplies to handle the air that unit will put out.

You can get a filter box that will house the filters. It's a big cube.. They're not too common, but a sheetmetal shop could easily make you one.

Tim
post #180 of 283
Thread Starter 
No its just for the theater.

The problem with the ducts (both supply and return) is that they need to go between the floor joists above. You can see the construction. I'm also going room-in-room with more joists so that takes up even more space.

What I had thought of doing was getting a couple of new joists - putting them real close to the floor joists above. In between build some boxes (from formply) that'd be lined. So we're talking say 8" to 10" x 10" square or there abouts. if I had two of these running into the room I could hook up flex duct from these to the plenum around the unit. Does that make sense?

Basically I am trying to make the returns and supplies as large as the house will physically allow and hope for the best.
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