JTR Captivator - Page 120

The distance/delay adjustment is not a workaround but in fact the correct fix for the problem, and in fact better than using a variable phase control. While an argument could be made for a few cases where a variable phase control would help when integrating multiple subwoofers in systems with limited front end adjustments, such adjustments are readily available in reasonably priced outboard processing which offer this and many other features important to maximizing the performance of the system.

Thanks for the reply Mark. I guess my use of quotation marks around the word incorrectly didn't go over as the joke it was meant to be.
You are correct thinking I would like the phase adjustment for the use of fine tuning multiple subs when they are not all equidistant from the main listening position. A speaker distance setting can only do so much with multiple subs.

Thanks for that suggestion but the passive option isn't for me. I prefer more of a turnkey solution where the manufacturer has matched the box and driver with a suitable amp,set the filtering and maybe even tossed in a little DSP magic to squeeze out every last bit of performance from their baby.

That's why I'm considering these two brands. They are both superb proven products and I am having great difficulty deciding between them. The fact they both lack a phase control just makes it that much harder to decide. No advantage for either choice. On the bright side I really can't go wrong with either one.

Just got a call from the shipping Co., the S2 will be here on Tuesday!

Currently have a Velo DD15, in closed HT room 19x14x8, movies only, mostly scifi/action/horror, was considering Submersive, but consensus seems to favor the Captivator. The Cap vs Cap 1000 seems to bring an additional 6 db, would the additional cost of the Cap vs 1000 be of use in my size room? Looking for more physical impact of explosions, battlecruisers etc. Usual volume levels are only moderate to slightly above. Only 2 seats in theater.

I have a cap 1000 in a similar space like yours and it's more than enough. The cap 1k has amazing punch and rumble. Though I never heard a subM before. I bet its killer too. Both are good subs and can go wrong with either.

Thanks, from reading this thread and having recently had it recommended by my projector calibrator who by training was an audio engineer and does room/audio calibrations I am being swayed strongly in this direction. The Submersive seems to be on near equal footing, but it is more expensive. Since the Velo is working fine, I need to convince the Ms. that we really are missing all the action the discs have on them. I'll let you know how that works out

So the drivers have reached Jeff? I hope I get a message from him with some good news soon, I have an S2 on order

I heard some drivers have reached him and he is filling orders as fast as he can. A friend of mine received his (2) S2's a couple days ago so they are finding their way to awaiting owners as we speak.

Does he usually email before shipping out stuff?

I had dual Caps powered by a Behringer ep 4000, maybe someone can correct me if this is wrong but I think one of my passive Caps would be = to a Cap 1000. In comparing them to a Submersive, I preferred the Submersive for music by a wide margin but for movies it was very close. The Submersive had a tighter sound to it but the Cap (compared single Cap to single Submersive at the time) had a more impact.

In a blind test I liked the Submersive more for movies too, in my room it was a lot closer.

Very nice room carp. I bet that is a nice place to watch a movie. Thanks for showing the picture of the Captivator next to the Submersive.

Sure, thanks.

Sitting next to each other the size difference didn't look like much in the pic but it was quite a difference. I really liked the look of my Caps better btw, so mean looking!!

It seems that the Cap having more impact relative to the SubM is echoed by several other posters as well, which is what I'm looking for and I don't use my system for music at all. I also noticed that the pricing between the Cap 1K and the SubM is quite close that wouldn't of itself be a deciding factor. Thanks all for your input, now just convincing the wife that we need deeper bass is the next hurdle.

Ha, you are never going to be able to convince her you need more bass. You're just going to have to do it and ask forgiveness after the fact.

I suggest you get a passive Cap and the Crown amp (can't remember the model... 5000 or something) that member Archaea has. If you can get that amp as cheap as he did it's a great deal and the output is far greater than a Cap 1000. I heard his passive caps with a Behringer ep4000 and then with the Crown and it was a large difference!!

Yup...the XLS5000. I have 3 of them in my system. Good stuff!!

Does anyone who has the powered cap 4000 or the new 2400 have any comments toward the overall performance. I would think that with the speaker power amp, DSP, and Jeffs magic would make it impossible to duplicate the total perfomance and would not be able to be equalled with another version of aftermarket amp with DSP.
I guess what I am asking is why the passive cap? I understand money????
other than that it seems like it would have "one arm tied behind its back"
I dont see anyone buying a passive cap then spending more money on an amp than the one that comes with the powered version. Unless you count people who buy multiple amps because they are not satisfied with the first.

MORE DIRECT
Has anyone who has a passive cap done their own way have any experience with a powered cap 4000 or 2400?
vice versa
Has anyone with a powered cap have any experience with a passive version
done correctly?

Other than to save $$$$$ why?
everyword above is to be asked as a question and not of disrespect of powered verses passive
thanks for the time and I appreciate any answers given
WVchris

Very reasonable question.

And sorry, I have yet to have direct, personal experience with a powered Cap in my room, but I would put it like this:

Powered version: $2500
Passive: $1500

Cost of an amplifier capable of delivering 2,000+ watts: 3-$400.

Total $ difference: 6-$700.

Now I realize there is also some "custom" optimization with the powered version's amplifier, but I achieve fantastic results with the Audyssey XT32 in my AVR.

Seeing that this is a high-end subwoofer, I think it's safe to assume many/most will be using it with a high/higher end AVR/PRE-PRO/EQ and can achieve similar results with their RC system/manual EQ.

I also do not discount that you leave ~3 db's on the table with a "lesser" powered external amp, but I suppose that's only of importance if you: A. have a particularly LARGE room or, B. you're looking for 125+db bass in smaller/med sized rooms.

I for instance have one in my 15x17 living room open to the rest of the house (about 3500^3) and I still hit 120+dbs at the MLP.

At the end of the day, the extra 6-$700 expenditure is your choice, of course. Personally, I have zero regrets pocketing the cash...it just puts me that much closer to a second, lol.

The output capabilities of mine are still absolutely absurd and I can only imagine what a second- properly placed- will do.

Good luck, these are "nice" problems to have, for sure.

James

very good answer.
For a $700 savings you are satisfied and would put that money towards a second passive cap to have dual caps done at a reasonable price. excellent plan.
Do you think that if you had a powered cap for 30-60 days to get fully accustomed to its limits and trimming it into your own system, than came home one day to find it had been replaced with your current passive cap and amp setup, would you feel the same?
That is my million dollar question.[or at least $2500]
It seems like any complaints come from the passive owners.
thanks James for your thoughts. Owners answers are gold around here.
please other owners contribute your thoughts
thank you
wvchris

one last thing
If someone had a passive cap and was dissatisfied would the next logical step be to go powered cap and can Jeff turn passive into powered i think he can?

I haven't seen any complaints from any Cap owners. I don't know of anyone else (there probably are, I just don't know of any) that has bought a Cap and then went with something else. I never had any complaints, my Caps were incredible.

My advice would be if you could swing duals by going passive then do that for sure instead of buying just one powered Cap. If you can afford 2 powered Caps then obviously do that instead.

For me, it was a cost/flexibility issue. But my setup is a bit different.

James, I included your quote here only so I could let you know my second pair of Caps will be here tomorrow. Maybe now I'll have the balance I'm looking for.

Chris, my setup is music-only and is intended to be played loud. I'm running T12-HTs and a pair of passive Captivators (will be quad passives tomorrow - YAAAAY!!!!), driven by multiple Crown XLS5000 amps and stand-alone processing. Quad powered Caps (*with DSP*) would be $11,200 (the 2011 model was $2800 as I recall) before discounts for multiples. Then you'd still need a receiver or other processing to integrate them into the room (in my case about $300 - whether a stand-alone or a receiver, this is a required cost regardless of powered or passive) because the on-board DSP of the powered version only deals with the response of the unit at the ground plane.

In contrast, quad passives run $6000, excluding discounts for multiples (which would be the same discount as powered). Add $1200 for amps (in my case) and ignore the $300 for the processor, since I'd have to have had it anyway, and you're at $7200.

Two ways to look at it. One is that the powered subs are EQed for themselves already, and the only EQ I have to do is to compensate for the room. The other is that I have to compensate anyway, and the DSP may or may not aid in acheiving the desired result.

So I saved over $4k. Now in a different application, the powered version may be a steal. I'm not there.

Yet.

You forgot me. I went with quads.

It was so amazing, I just had to have MORE!!

Sometimes I wonder how I must sound, having been underwhelmed by dual Caps. I think James laid it out in my thread on the subject. I did come off as just another clueless punk. All's going to be well in the land of the Son's 10x12 quad-Capped music room!!

I was the first guy to buy the Captivator after it switched to the 18" ported configuration back in late 2010. For me, the passive choice was a no-brainer since I already had a suitable power amp, eq/filters, and the know-how to optimize the system. I couldn't be any happier with my decision. Yes, I gave up some headroom by not going with the 4000 watt powered version which was then offered, but I already have more headroom than I know what to do with. It turns out that the 4000 watt amp was too powerful for the Cap driver anyhow and now the 2400 watt amp is used. That further lessens the output differnce between the passive Cap with a typical amp and the powered one.

I would tend to believe that it would be easy to change one of the current passive Caps into a powered one. I think the passive ones come with a plate with speaker terminal which could be swapped out for the amp. My early model was a little different with a solid back wall and native 15hz tuning.

Yeah, it's really easy I watched Jeff take the plate amp off the first Cap I bought and screw in the speaker terminal plate. Took no time at all, and gave us all a chance to see the innards of the beast at Archaea's first GTG.

carp
I can tell your choice was made based on sealed verses ported. I had to make the same choice a little over a year or two ago. Some people were actually comparing the Epik Empire to the submersive 1000. That was just confusing. Thank goddness mark dropped the HP version on eveyone and since then comparision are over. I do not think the HP can be clipped or at least I never have.
That is what prompted my question earlier.
I would think passive would be easier to clip.
I have a policy with amps: they clip they leave.
I am wondering why at the GTGs it is always dual passive caps with some amp going head to head against the subm hp. Jeff is usually there and I was confused as to why the passive version. Mabey it performs better at GTGs?
I just do not read or hear much about the powered cap.To me it sounds like the powered cap is KING of the ported subs.
Has anyone been to a GTG and heard powered
thanks for the replies
wvchris

carp your room and setup is sweet!!! very appealing.

There should be no clipping, audible distortion, or noticeable dynamic compression if there is sufficient headroom for any listening level you might chose to dial up, plain and simple. It shouldn't make any difference if you have passive or powered subs. If there is not sufficent headroom, you need more subs.

A powered sub with protective limiters might keep there from being obvious bad sounds, but it's still no real susbstitute for having enough headroom.

mike
another good point a protective limiter.
example
Power cap 2400 come with plenty of headroom DSP and protective limiter
Passive does not.
FIRST How do you make the passive compete with powered?
SECOND Can passive with another amp, DSP, and limiter
be done as good or better than powered within ruffly the same price?
Is there any advantage to passive over powered?
wvchris