or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › JTR Captivator
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

JTR Captivator - Page 128

post #3811 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Because that is not accurate.
Also, the low stuff is not unintended artifacts, they happen in real life all the time and many movies contain them. If you record real life effects you will get the full bandwidth, real life bandwidth, within your movie. If a mixer excludes them it is his opinion on what he wants but not what was truly on the recording. Whether one wants it all or not is up to the individual.
The question becomes what SPL is your goal here.


I don't understand the "because". Do you simply mean "that is not accurate?" I.e. that a corner loaded horn doesn't couple low frequencies better to a listening space over a direct radiator? I'd love any links or sites to learn more.

Second, I don't think anyone (at least on this thread) has contended ultra low frequencies do not purposefully (or even inadvertently) exist in recordings...or that any mixer excludes them.

The only contentions really are (that I'm are of, anyway):

1. Are they heard/felt in a meaningful regard?

2. For every 100 films and ~10,000 minutes of media how many are spent in the sub 10hz range?

I myself have now bore witness to two systems with "reference level" 10 and 7hz playback with a few scenes known to contain the freq's and I have to say that I wasn't terribly impressed...great bass elsewhere though, absolutely!

To each, their own, but sometimes this stuff reeks of specmanship and juvenile spl contests to me.

Ha ha, this coming from a guy looking at an OS...but then I'll have a 9,000 ^3 space to fill and even I like reference level bass.

140+?

Maybe when I was 16, lmao.

James
post #3812 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Umm I hate to break this to you MK, but movies are not real life. tongue.gif;)

Nooooooo!

Kidding aside who wants a real explosion in their theater anyways, one will go deaf! If one plays at reference that is loud as I need it, well, the subs a little hot anyways. The one thing I have noticed is that the flatter I get my sub system to 4hz the less I need to run my subs hot. Another way to say it is running my subs flat to 20hz 10 dBs hot does not feel as tactile as running my subs flat to 4hz at 5 dBs hot. Of course the first scenario has more midbass punch but if I turn up the second setting 10 dBs hot it feels like the walls will come down from the low end.

Mastermaybe,
103 dBs GP at 10hz only exist for one sub so far, and it was achieved by a 54mm x-max 18 tuned at 11hz. The OS is tuned around 22hz with a 30 mm x-max 18. Below the knee of the horn it will act like one sealed 18 30mm x-max sub which should get you closer to 90-91 dBs at 10hz(2M outdoors). The S2 will get 96-97 dBs at 10hz. This is based off using Data-bass and the UXL-18 driver which is a well built 18 with 34 mm of x-max. The Cap driver has 30mm.
post #3813 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I don't understand the "because". Do you simply mean "that is not accurate?" I.e. that a corner loaded horn doesn't couple low frequencies better to a listening space over a direct radiator? I'd love any links or sites to learn more.
Second, I don't think anyone (at least on this thread) has contended ultra low frequencies do not purposefully (or even inadvertently) exist in recordings...or that any mixer excludes them.
The only contentions really are (that I'm are of, anyway):
1. Are they heard/felt in a meaningful regard?
2. For every 100 films and ~10,000 minutes of media how many are spent in the sub 10hz range?
I myself have now bore witness to two systems with "reference level" 10 and 7hz playback with a few scenes known to contain the freq's and I have to say that I wasn't terribly impressed...great bass elsewhere though, absolutely!
To each, their own, but sometimes this stuff reeks of specmanship and juvenile spl contests to me.
Ha ha, this coming from a guy looking at an OS...but then I'll have a 9,000 ^3 space to fill and even I like reference level bass.
140+?
Maybe when I was 16, lmao.
James

RMK! mentioned the low frequencies were mostly unintended that is why I posted. That is my point, the S2 will play as loud as a OS up to insane levels and be much flatter on the low end and have the ability to play reference down low better, all in a much smaller package. If you want more than insane above 20hz, then OS is for you, by why stop there, go for a Danley rock monster or cinema monster. 150 dBs above 25hz will certainly impress, and destroy your ears! The point is it all depends on your goals. Where does one say this or that frequency matters? It is up to the listener and I just want everything possible on the disc at reference without blowing up my equipment, it is simple really. If one can care less about size(I don't) or low frequencies than I would pick a low corner(15, 20, 25hz?) and go with what you want. Hell, I had two folded horn 18's before that got me 130 dBs from 25hz and up, it rocked but nothing compared to what I have now on the same scenes. Nothing to do with sound quality because the S2 and OS will sound more alike than different.
post #3814 of 4725
The Cap S2 has 2 18" subwoofers
a 4000 watt amp with DSP
it weighs in at 190lbs
All for 3 Grand
It's simple really
Chris
post #3815 of 4725
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

RMK! mentioned the low frequencies were mostly unintended that is why I posted.

A statement that was confirmed by FilmMixer on another very contentious thread. It was strange having people who are not in the film sound business arguing this with a very well respected and credentialed film sound guy. The point was that if their mixing sound stages, all theaters and 99.99999 % of all home theaters cannot reproduce these sounds, then how/why would they be anything other than sound track artifacts no matter how cool some may think it is to reproduce them. They are quite literally the tree that falls in the forest.

That and as mastermaybe said ... the effects themselves are underwhelming ... especially considering the price you pay to get them.
It is really fun to be a member of such an exclusive club ... isn't it rolleyes.giftongue.gifwink.gif
post #3816 of 4725
in KC we played several test tones at 85dB below 15hz using carps dual submersives and half the people couldn't even tell if the subs were on or off during the test tones and a few of us 'thought' we could, but it was iffy. You start hearing the room vibrate and you know it's on, but it wasn't like we were feeling anything or hearing the subs directly --- certainty not at 75dB.

That said I haven't tried a test tone of 10hz at 100dB+
post #3817 of 4725
mastermaybe

I think this is kind of what you are looking for?

http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=398

I believe you can load the horn such as aiming into a corner... to basically extend the length of the horn.

1 OS = 2 Cap 2 sealed above 20hz
1 Cap 2 sealed = 2 OS below 20hz

So instead of 20hz maybe it could be more like 18hz. Below the tuning of this horn design I believe it is behaving just like a sealed subwoofer as the horn no longer contributes.
post #3818 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

in KC we played several test tones at 85dB below 15hz using carps dual submersives and half the people couldn't even tell if the subs were on or off during the test tones and a few of us 'thought' we could, but it was iffy. You start hearing the room vibrate and you know it's on, but it wasn't like we were feeling anything or hearing the subs directly --- certainty not at 75dB.
That said I haven't tried a test tone of 10hz at 100dB+

Well when we are talking frequencies that are all about "feel", I think having enough output is key.
post #3819 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

That said I haven't tried a test tone of 10hz at 100dB+

Shall we reserve that for the October GTG? tongue.gif I've also shared a similar experience - I listened to 10 and 15hz test tones as well as some similar movie content (BHD blades) at a members house at levels near reference and had to listen hard for rumblings in the room.
post #3820 of 4725
yes, but I'm not sure we have any subs that are capable of that.

which were you thinking gorilla83?

I'd love to do some testing like that with a mass of folk to see what the subs can do in this inaudible realm.

The other problem is that when you start turning on and off the clip there is a bit of a pop or av gear noise that somewhat indicates if the gear is playing or not. It's hard to mask that unless you just keep turning off on off on until that little click means nothing to the auditioners and then question the audience if the sub is on or off right now. And when you turn the subs up to higher SPL levels at those low frequencies you'll start hearing driver noise. The surround moving etc, which indicates the subs are on, but you aren't really feeling it etc. That's been my experience anyway.

My experience with this has all been in a basement concrete slab floor setting - so I'm sure it's different on a wooden floor but in a basement I'd be willing to wager big money that 50% of the people couldn't guess right at 75dB at 10hz as to whether a sub was one or off and the only reason it wouldn't be higher is that it's a 50/50 guess (on or off). What would be interesting to see is where exactly people start recognizing the 10hz material? At what dB? At a certain dB it's going to pressurize the room and you are going to feel it in your body for sure. The typical failure of course is that most frequency responses aren't flat to 10hz, and so the stuff you can easily hear and detect at above 20hz will mask the 10hz stuff unless you have a setup like MKtheater that is flat through the entire band.

Even the S2 and submersives aren't likely to be flat to 10hz in a room like yours gorilla83 so I don't really see us getting to truly play with this concept at your meet either.
Edited by Archaea - 9/10/12 at 4:33pm
post #3821 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Well when we are talking frequencies that are all about "feel", I think having enough output is key.

Definately. S2.JPG 73k .JPG file
post #3822 of 4725
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

mastermaybe
I think this is kind of what you are looking for?
http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=398
I believe you can load the horn such as aiming into a corner... to basically extend the length of the horn.
1 OS = 2 Cap 2 sealed above 20hz
1 Cap 2 sealed = 2 OS below 20hz
So instead of 20hz maybe it could be more like 18hz. Below the tuning of this horn design I believe it is behaving just like a sealed subwoofer as the horn no longer contributes.


This is correct. I was told by Tom Danley (with my TH-SPUDS) and Jeff with the OS's that corner placement would increase the horn length and this would increase output and extends the tune slightly lower. My OS's are both corner loaded with the horn mouth approx 18" from the rooms front corners.
post #3823 of 4725
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryeye View Post

Definately. S2.JPG 73k .JPG file

Ding, ding, ding ... we have a winner.eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
post #3824 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryeye View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Well when we are talking frequencies that are all about "feel", I think having enough output is key.

Definately. S2.JPG 73k .JPG file

nice --- but even those four s2's alone wont' get you there. You'll have to still apply some DSP to get flat to the lowest frequencies. The S2's are not flat to the lowest frequencies without some EQ - - they roll off just like most sealed systems --- if no additional external eq is applied. I measured a couple S2's in dlbecks' room and even with both SVS EQ1 and Audyssey applied and he was nowhere near flat to 5hz.

75dB at 5hz - 90dB at 30hz

http://www.avsforum.com/t/871474/ia-meet/3300_20#post_22240791


The S2's are capable of flat to 5hz, but you gotta have some manual eq engaged.
post #3825 of 4725
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryeye View Post

Definately. S2.JPG 73k .JPG file

Ding,ding, ding ...we have a winner.eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

and I am not easily impressed.
post #3826 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryeye View Post

Definately. S2.JPG 73k .JPG file

Wow, first thing that came to mind is "that's over $12,000 of subwoofage."
post #3827 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

A statement that was confirmed by FilmMixer on another very contentious thread. It was strange having people who are not in the film sound business arguing this with a very well respected and credentialed film sound guy. The point was that if their mixing sound stages, all theaters and 99.99999 % of all home theaters cannot reproduce these sounds, then how/why would they be anything other than sound track artifacts no matter how cool some may think it is to reproduce them. They are quite literally the tree that falls in the forest.
That and as mastermaybe said ... the effects themselves are underwhelming ... especially considering the price you pay to get them.
It is really fun to be a member of such an exclusive club ... isn't it rolleyes.giftongue.gifwink.gif

Not to pile on...and we're all friends here so I think we can keep it civil, but this, to me anyway, is REALLY it. I was following the same thread and had the same laugh: here's a guy who does this for a living essentially forced to justify himself to- let's face it- largely a bunch of wannabes (I'll go ahead and put myself in that category smile.gif), most of whom's knowledge doesn't extend much more than a half decade and what we've learned on AVS (not that there's not a lot of valid worthwhile knowledge here wink.gif) and sometimes seem mores obsessed with their equipment/freq response graphs than the totality of the sound emanating from it.


And if I were in a smaller (read: normal) room, I prolly would pop for the S2, but I'm actually betting on needing the OS' +6dbs on 20+hz content and I'm just happy that it probably outnumbers the -20hz content 1,000 to 1 with movies and 10,000 to 1 with music.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 9/10/12 at 4:53pm
post #3828 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by loopaddiction View Post

Wow, first thing that came to mind is "that's over $12,000 of subwoofage."

Hard to tell from that pic but I'd love know how large that room is and what kind of levels he's looking for.

James
post #3829 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Nooooooo!
Kidding aside who wants a real explosion in their theater anyways, one will go deaf! If one plays at reference that is loud as I need it, well, the subs a little hot anyways. The one thing I have noticed is that the flatter I get my sub system to 4hz the less I need to run my subs hot. Another way to say it is running my subs flat to 20hz 10 dBs hot does not feel as tactile as running my subs flat to 4hz at 5 dBs hot. Of course the first scenario has more midbass punch but if I turn up the second setting 10 dBs hot it feels like the walls will come down from the low end.
Mastermaybe,
103 dBs GP at 10hz only exist for one sub so far, and it was achieved by a 54mm x-max 18 tuned at 11hz. The OS is tuned around 22hz with a 30 mm x-max 18. Below the knee of the horn it will act like one sealed 18 30mm x-max sub which should get you closer to 90-91 dBs at 10hz(2M outdoors). The S2 will get 96-97 dBs at 10hz. This is based off using Data-bass and the UXL-18 driver which is a well built 18 with 34 mm of x-max. The Cap driver has 30mm.

Ok, just using what I found off Jeff's site. Was the UXL being hit with 7200 watts? Jeff doesn't strike me as one to just pull stuff out of the air. But the 103 was at 1 meter so you could deduct 6dbs to arrive at 97 at 2m's.

James
post #3830 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Ok, just using what I found off Jeff's site. Was the UXL being hit with 7200 watts? Jeff doesn't strike me as one to just pull stuff out of the air. But the 103 was at 1 meter so you could deduct 6dbs to arrive at 97 at 2m's.
James

Wattage does not matter because it each driver requires whatever to reach x-max, besides one can not compare to different tests unless they were exact testing methods. The re-xxx will produce more 10hz than most and it won't hit 103 dbs and it has almost double the X-max. I will just say different testing methods and should not be compared. I was using all Ricci's measurements to be equal and the UXL-18 is the closest to the Cap driver but with a little more X-max. Now I am just talking SPL and nothing else.

You guys can reproduce anything you want, I just want everything on the disc. When a person records sounds you bet there is low frequencies, the crew decides what they want, some leave it on and some don't. I want to produce or recreate the films that do. I have plenty of 20hz and above as well. Again why do we just say 25 hz is enough? I mean that contains 98% of material so why bother with the 1-2% at all. You says 99% is enough but not 100%? It does not cost that much to get it. It does require measuring and boosting. Oh yeah, of course 75-85 dBs at 10 hz is hardly noticed, I am talking 120-122 dBs at 10hz, try feeling that an let me know if you want it or not. I would not even bother with a sub for 75 dBs at any frequency, heck, dialog is louder than that. We would not even considering Captivators or JTR for 75-85 dBs!
post #3831 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post


Wattage does not matter because it each driver requires whatever to reach x-max, besides one can not compare to different tests unless they were exact testing methods. The re-xxx will produce more 10hz than most and it won't hit 103 dbs and it has almost double the X-max. I will just say different testing methods and should not be compared. I was using all Ricci's measurements to be equal and the UXL-18 is the closest to the Cap driver but with a little more X-max. Now I am just talking SPL and nothing else.
You guys can reproduce anything you want, I just want everything on the disc. When a person records sounds you bet there is low frequencies, the crew decides what they want, some leave it on and some don't. I want to produce or recreate the films that do. I have plenty of 20hz and above as well. Again why do we just say 25 hz is enough? I mean that contains 98% of material so why bother with the 1-2% at all. You says 99% is enough but not 100%? It does not cost that much to get it. It does require measuring and boosting. Oh yeah, of course 75-85 dBs at 10 hz is hardly noticed, I am talking 120-122 dBs at 10hz, try feeling that an let me know if you want it or not. I would not even bother with a sub for 75 dBs at any frequency, heck, dialog is louder than that. We would not even considering Captivators or JTR for 75-85 dBs!

It's funny watching this interaction....

 

The guys that have put a lot of money in ported subs that rolloff around 20hz or so say that less than that isn't worth it and most movies don't go there.

 

The guys that have put a lot of money in sealed subs to get the ULF say it's awesome and that those that don't have it are missing out.

 

But how many in this 'political' race have actually had adequate enough systems for a long period of time to truly weigh in on the difference between the two? 

 

To complicate matters even more, I do believe there is a point where your room is so big, it's cost prohibitive to even try and get there!

post #3832 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

A statement that was confirmed by FilmMixer on another very contentious thread. It was strange having people who are not in the film sound business arguing this with a very well respected and credentialed film sound guy. The point was that if their mixing sound stages, all theaters and 99.99999 % of all home theaters cannot reproduce these sounds, then how/why would they be anything other than sound track artifacts no matter how cool some may think it is to reproduce them. They are quite literally the tree that falls in the forest.

Please quote FM saying soundtracks contain unintended artifacts at any frequency at reference levels. rolleyes.gif

Posting an opinion is one thing but putting words into people's mouths to make an errant point is something else altogether.

Quote:
That and as mastermaybe said ... the effects themselves are underwhelming ... especially considering the price you pay to get them.
It is really fun to be a member of such an exclusive club ... isn't it rolleyes.giftongue.gifwink.gif

.../says the guy who's down -10dB at 20 Hz and -28dB at 5 Hz (see the dashed trace overlaid onto the prog sweeps of someone who has reference level to 4 Hz with no compression and <5% THD). wink.gif

RMKOSin-room.jpg

Show me an interview with Randy Thom, who was the sound designer and supervising mix engineer for How To Train Your Dragon (who has 14 oscars and is current sound director at Skywalker), where he says the profusion of scenes with extremely hot content below 20 Hz in this one example of his body of work:

HTTYDNOWdigital.jpg

...is there by mistake because he didn't know it was there (that's what unintended means) and couldn't monitor it.

Really, enough already with the "unintended artifacts" baloney, eh?
post #3833 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

It's funny watching this interaction....

The guys that have put a lot of money in ported subs that rolloff around 20hz or so say that less than that isn't worth it and most movies don't go there.

The guys that have put a lot of money in sealed subs to get the ULF say it's awesome and that those that don't have it are missing out.

But how many in this 'political' race have actually had adequate enough systems for a long period of time to truly weigh in on the difference between the two? 

To complicate matters even more, I do believe there is a point where your room is so big, it's cost prohibitive to even try and get there!

Exactly.
post #3834 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

It's funny watching this interaction....

 

The guys that have put a lot of money in ported subs that rolloff around 20hz or so say that less than that isn't worth it and most movies don't go there.

 

The guys that have put a lot of money in sealed subs to get the ULF say it's awesome and that those that don't have it are missing out.

 

But how many in this 'political' race have actually had adequate enough systems for a long period of time to truly weigh in on the difference between the two? 

 

To complicate matters even more, I do believe there is a point where your room is so big, it's cost prohibitive to even try and get there!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post


Exactly.

I'll throw in another curve ball while we're at it....

 

Unlike frequency response, there is no reference for tactile sensation! IMO, similar to FR, the room plays such a huge part in tactile sensation. Not only the room, but the furniture you sit on, and the placement of subs. A HT room with a suspended floor will feel different from one with a concrete floor. Different furniture will have different resonant frequencies. The placement of subs near the LP will also play a huge factor. Once you start getting in the inaudible range, 'shake' fools the mind and IMO plays a big factor in the perception of ULF...

 

And in all scenarios, you could have the exact same reference FR!!!

 

biggrin.gif

post #3835 of 4725
Sorry for being a bit off topic, but can someone point me in the direction of how an S2 and powered Cap compare at/above the Cap's tune? I remember seeing the post from Jeff where he compared the Cap/OS/Cap S(2?) above and below 20HZ in regards to rank (the Cap was in the middle with the S(2) and OS trading spots) but I haven't been able to come across any specifics on output levels, etc beyond that.

The reason I ask is that I'm thinking of adding a Cap or an S2 to my existing system (dual PB13U's), and am trying to see which would best line up. Thanks.
post #3836 of 4725
One ported cap will best your dual PB13U's significantly. Two caps will best your dual PB13U's by about 10dB. If you eperience lines up with mine that is. I had the Bash 750 watt powered SVS PB13 Ultra pair

That 10dB was with the Dual PB13Ultras stacked in a corner, and the Caps non co-located on left and right of my projector screen. The PB13Ultras could hit 115dB clean SPL at my listening position when they were stacked 2 high in the corner, and the Cap Pro pair on a single EP4000 amp hit 125dB clean SPL at my listening position. (EP4000 amp limited - amp clip lights were starting to bounce at 125dB)

Radio Shack meter officiating with identical dubstep music as the audition material.
post #3837 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

One ported cap will best your dual PB13U's significantly. Two caps will best your dual PB13U's by about 10dB. If you eperience lines up with mine...and that 10dB was with the Dual PB13Ultras stacked in a corner, and the Caps non co-located on left and right of my projector screen. The PB13Ultras could hit 115dB clean SPL at my listening position when they were stacked 2 high in the corner, and the Cap Pro pair on a single EP4000 amp hit 125dB clean SPL at my listening position. (EP4000 amp limited - amp clip lights were starting to bounce at 125dB)
Radio Shack meter officiating.

Thanks Archaea. I'm having a hard time selling two more new subs to the significant other, but I have got her grudging approval to add one more once our move is completed (the new room is soooooooo big after all tongue.gif). With that in mind I'm thinking of stacking my PB-U's in the rear of the room, which will be closer to the seating position, and running the Cap or S2 up front. Simplifying it to two point sources, and eq'ing them via XT32.

With that in mind, I'm wondering if the output and tuning differences between the PB-U's and a ported cap would be more of an issue, and maybe just running the PB-U's sealed and an S2 might be the better (or at least easier) solution. We're still waiting to finish closing on the house, so I don't have measurements, but the system will be in a great room of approx, 7,000 cubic feet. And with that much volume to fill, the ported seems to make more sense.

And round and round my thinking goes. Sometimes I think I should just toss a coin.
post #3838 of 4725
PB13 Ultras in sealed mode aren't that exciting in my experience. That was my least favorite tune of the three.

Big room.

Ported subs are typically better for a big room unless you have room/money for a lot of sealed to make up for the SPL loss or overcome the airspace.

I have the feeling after you heard a pair of Caps you would be okay with just selling off the SVS subs, though nearfield placement of the SVS might be enjoyable.
post #3839 of 4725
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Please quote FM saying soundtracks contain unintended artifacts at any frequency at reference levels. rolleyes.gif
Posting an opinion is one thing but putting words into people's mouths to make an errant point is something else altogether.

How about if I quote you saying he said it. You are too much Dave and I don't mean that in a good way.

Here is an exchange between yourself and FilmMixer from a few weeks ago. Already forgotten? rolleyes.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass

Hunger Games!!
Finally we have proof positive of the knowledge of the ULF content For that reason alone, I'm giving this soundtrack 5 stars. There's a scene wherein the entire soundtrack has repeating sine sweeps from 70 Hz down to off the chart, so there's no chance in Opinionville the designers didn't know what the content was as they swept the sine waves D-O-W-N to the very bottom, rinsed and repeated....

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer

Who ever claimed designers didn't know the content was there?
Quote:
Does the phrase "unintended artifacts" ring any bells?



I'd retire if I could have a nickel for every time I've read it here and elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass
Quote:

Of course it rings some bells.

That doesn't mean it's unintended every time.
Edited by FilmMixer - 8/20/12 at 1:19pm
post #3840 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

yes, but I'm not sure we have any subs that are capable of that.
which were you thinking gorilla83?
I'd love to do some testing like that with a mass of folk to see what the subs can do in this inaudible realm.
The other problem is that when you start turning on and off the clip there is a bit of a pop or av gear noise that somewhat indicates if the gear is playing or not. It's hard to mask that unless you just keep turning off on off on until that little click means nothing to the auditioners and then question the audience if the sub is on or off right now. And when you turn the subs up to higher SPL levels at those low frequencies you'll start hearing driver noise. The surround moving etc, which indicates the subs are on, but you aren't really feeling it etc. That's been my experience anyway.
My experience with this has all been in a basement concrete slab floor setting - so I'm sure it's different on a wooden floor but in a basement I'd be willing to wager big money that 50% of the people couldn't guess right at 75dB at 10hz as to whether a sub was one or off and the only reason it wouldn't be higher is that it's a 50/50 guess (on or off). What would be interesting to see is where exactly people start recognizing the 10hz material? At what dB? At a certain dB it's going to pressurize the room and you are going to feel it in your body for sure. The typical failure of course is that most frequency responses aren't flat to 10hz, and so the stuff you can easily hear and detect at above 20hz will mask the 10hz stuff unless you have a setup like MKtheater that is flat through the entire band.
Even the S2 and submersives aren't likely to be flat to 10hz in a room like yours gorilla83 so I don't really see us getting to truly play with this concept at your meet either.

I think the Submersives would be the best bet in my room. I seem to get some decent room gain even with the empires down there so we'll see. We could always add in some boost down low too. I think doing a test of this nature would be cool when we get to the submersives.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › JTR Captivator