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JTR Captivator - Page 151

post #4501 of 4725
Around here its € 879.
For just a sub EQ system thats a lot( although it can do a lot more).
But in my experience ( Behringer , Roomperfect , MCACC, Antimode S) its in a class of its own.
Edited by staaled - 10/2/13 at 10:13am
post #4502 of 4725
What is the general consensus on a Cap 2400 vs Cap S2? Small (11' x 10' x 8') spare bedroom converted for HT use. The plan is 228HTs for the LCR and a JTR sub.

99% movie use, but who knows if that will change once I have such a high quality setup. I do enjoy concert Blu-rays a good bit and can see that collection growing as well.

I know the Cap 2400 doubles the output of the Cap S1 above its 17.5 Hz port tune. Is the Cap S2 equal in output to the 2400 above 17.5 Hz and then significantly higher below 17.5 Hz? Which is typically more sought after for movie use, the added air movement from the 2400 or the lower frequency reproduction from the S2?
post #4503 of 4725
The trick there is that if you are buying a single cap 2400 or a single s2 and the extra money for the S2 isn't a deal breaker then most will say S2. Your room is small enough you can take advantage of the S2's subsonic frequency reproduction capability.

But it gets a bit tricky when you consider that you can buy TWO cap 2400's in passive form for the same price as an S2 --- well you still have to buy your own amps - but that's still relatively cheap - as in that size room and a single Inuke DSP 3000 for $350ish would probably turn you upside down at the listening position and just completely blow away your expectations. Now you are getting the air movement effect which I LOVE! and quite a bit more output than a single S2 --- at least above port tune which at 17.5 hz encompasess 99% of all movies.

It seems they've decided at the ULF thread that a couple of ported caps are the equivalent of about six basic 18" sealed subs like the Dayton or SI at around port tune. The sealed S2 would be about the equivalent of four of these basic 18" sealed subs (or so).

So you're back at the ultra deep bass, or just plain silly output and tactile fun. The reality is in a room that size you don't need anywhere near as much sub as either of these will produce and you are going to have ridiculous output and unreasonable fun either way. tongue.gif


You can't go wrong either way. Honestly in your size room you might consider a couple of S1's, or a couple cap 1000's, or another of my favorites - the Rythmik FV-15HP in a pair would may be a cheaper alternative for your smaller room ---- that is --- if you won't always wonder 'what if' tongue.gif


I'm assuming because you mention the air movement of a ported sub that you've seen the video of my caps in action or experienced it in person? If not then take a look. Does this air movement look appealing? Some say yes - some say no. I think it totally adds to the experience of an on screen explosion - to have all that air movement in the room.


Here's another of a JTR cap

Edited by Archaea - 10/3/13 at 4:53pm
post #4504 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by emr25 View Post

What is the general consensus on a Cap 2400 vs Cap S2? Small (11' x 10' x 8') spare bedroom converted for HT use. The plan is 228HTs for the LCR and a JTR sub.99% movie use, but who knows if that will change once I have such a high quality setup. I do enjoy concert Blu-rays a good bit and can see that collection growing as well.I know the Cap 2400 doubles the output of the Cap S1 above its 17.5 Hz port tune. Is the Cap S2 equal in output to the 2400 above 17.5 Hz and then significantly higher below 17.5 Hz? Which is typically more sought after for movie use, the added air movement from the 2400 or the lower frequency reproduction from the S2?

Yes the Cap S2 is equal to a Ported Cap 2400 in terms of output above port tune and has significantly more output below that.
post #4505 of 4725
Jonathan

Whats that scene being played with the Cap (hat) being blown across the floor by the rush of air. Second video below the sleeping bag in your previous post. Incredible air movement and I don't think I've ever seen that kind of air rush out of my ports!
post #4506 of 4725
I don't remember the exact clip. It might have been war of the worlds?

That's with Jeffs 4000 watt speakerpower amp on the 2011 powered cap. Wringing out every ounce of performance available. The reason I even pulled out the camcorder was because one gust before I started filming blew the hat about 8 foot back to the main seating area. None of the movement I filmed replicated that, I wish we would have rewound the clip and caught that one scene again. Notice in the second video all the dust and debris floating around the room. That experience the first time was mindblowing!
post #4507 of 4725
Thanks Archaea for the detailed reponse regarding the 2400 vs. S2.

I will definitely be going with just one subwoofer for now, mostly due to room size constraints. With that in mind, I pretty much ruled out the Cap 1000 and Cap S1 because I know for incrementally more money I can step up to the Cap 2400 or Cap S2 without a footprint change.

I guess I have some more thinking to do. My only experience with significant bass is in car audio (I used to have 3 12" MTX subs in my trunk and a friend of mine had I believe a Mojo 18" in his truck). I can't really say from experience whether I prefer the air movement experience of a ported sub or the ULF reproduction of a sealed.

Obviously I will be in the "overkill" range either way for such a small room. I will eventually move and plan to have a larger, more dedicated HT room in any future homes I purchase. At that point I would consider adding a 2nd sub to the mix if needed (or more precisely, if wanted). Out of the Cap 2400 and Cap S2, which works better as a dual setup in a larger space (maybe 12' x 18' x 9' just for examples sake)?
post #4508 of 4725
Emr25,

I originally came back to AVS to research getting a new sub as I realized my previous one was missing something, mainly lower than 30Hz. So when I first started researching, the Seaton Submersive stood out and I figured I'd buy one of those. Well more research and many people said you'd be better off with two lesser subs than one really good one due to the sitting position frequency response. Essentially, two (or more) subs spread around a room will result in more seating positions being in the sweet spot as opposed to a few seats having good sub response. Also, you can't just decide where to put a sub as the room interacts differently with a sub(s) so you would need to try subs at different spots in a room to see what sounds best at multiple listening positions.

So with that said, two S1s would likely be better than a single S2 just for the ability to smooth response at multiple listening positions. I know there are many reasons that might not work for you but it is something to think about.

I ended up going the DIY route and I will build 3 end tables using the LMS 5400 sub.

David
post #4509 of 4725
Woohoo!

Just agreed to buy my second passive Captivator 2400/4000

I don't have a dedicated line but do have a semi dedicated 20 amp line for my amp. Right now I only planned on using an EP4000 with each wired to 2ohms for about 950w each per the amplifiers tested thread.

Is it worth adding a second EP4000 and running them at 8ohm for 1400w each?
Can my 20 amp line support 2800w?

Looking forward to having dual subs for the first time but hate how under powered they will be.
Edited by goonstopher - 11/14/13 at 1:12pm
post #4510 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Woohoo!

Just agreed to buy my second passive Captivator 2400/4000

I don't have a dedicated line but do have a semi dedicated 20 amp line for my amp. Right now I only planned on using an EP4000 with each wired to 2ohms for about 950w each per the amplifiers tested thread.

Is it worth adding a second EP4000 and running them at 4ohm for 1400w each?
Can my 20 amp line support 2800w?

Looking forward to having dual subs for the first time but hate how under powered they will be.

Bridged mode is closer to 2000 watts and more with peak source. The 1900 watts was with a sine wave, much harder to do. Yes, get a second EP-4000 and bridge them. Congrats, I did not even know a Cap was in the mix from your other thread, this is a better choice.
post #4511 of 4725
Thanks MK

I just figured it would trip my breaker and budget is stretched so didn't want to get one unless there was a benefit.

I will probably wait a month or two to get a second amp.
post #4512 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Bridged mode is closer to 2000 watts and more with peak source. The 1900 watts was with a sine wave, much harder to do. Yes, get a second EP-4000 and bridge them. Congrats, I did not even know a Cap was in the mix from your other thread, this is a better choice.

One thing - I made a mistake...

Cap can only be run 2 ohm or 8ohm

The ep4000/2500 tested at 1400w in 8ohm

Does that make a difference?
Is it still worth it on a 20amp line?
post #4513 of 4725
Well, 1400 watts or 850 watts with one amp. You will lose a total of 2 dBs with stereo but save $300, is 2 dBs worth $300? The answer is whether or not that 2 dBs is needed or not. If you decide to buy another amp I would sell the EP and get a Peavy and be done.
post #4514 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, 1400 watts or 850 watts with one amp. You will lose a total of 2 dBs with stereo but save $300, is 2 dBs worth $300? The answer is whether or not that 2 dBs is needed or not. If you decide to buy another amp I would sell the EP and get a Peavy and be done.

Hmm I don't know enough about the peavy line.

Any suggestions?
post #4515 of 4725
The peavey 7500.
post #4516 of 4725
A single EP4000 amp would drive my 2011 pair of captivators in my room to about 125dB at the listening position on a radio shack SPL meter to dubstep music at my listening position. I wanted more amp because I knew the subs were capable of so much more.

A single Crown XLS-5000 amp should be good to about 5-7dB more according to Gorilla83's comparisons back and forth between the two amps - which he recorded on video at one point.

The EP4000 amp couldn't make the Captivators tap out - even without a HPF (aka a low cut filter) on the frequencies below port tune. The XLS-5000 does require a low cut filter because it can make the Captivator driver lose control at the frequencies below port tune. I've never heard a bad noise in the sense of a clank or a bang or something hitting something with my cap drivers, but if I turn off the low cut filter so that frequencies below 20hz are being sent to the subs with the Crown XLS-5000- I can definitely hear the drivers lose some control on ultra low scenes like WOTW at very high volumes. Engage the low cut filter and all is well again. The Captivator has a VERY strong motor/magnet structure. Most mortal subwoofer drivers being hit with 2500 watts below their enclosure's port tune (which is effectively like playing the driver in open air without a cab) would make one loud bang as a last hurrah. I'm not sure if the new ported Captivator drivers are still the same specs as the older ported cap drivers. Someone said they might have changed - but I never confirmed with Jeff and don't know for sure. At any rate the 2500 watts x 2 from a 5000 watt amplifier would be a good mate.


I've been considering purchasing the Peavey IPR 7500 DSP when it comes out and selling my Crown XLS-5000. My captivator model was original sold with a 4,000 watt amp, and it is the same driver that is used in the orbit shifter which is powered by a 4000 watt amp. The IPR7500 gives me most of that power capability at 2ohms + the built in DSP with HPF functionality. Built in DSPs are nice to remove some of the what if's that go with additional signal components in the mix.

If you go with something more powerful than the EP4000 then you need at minimum a low cut filter.

Something like this out to do the trick
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1498921/ed-eq-2-elemental-designs-eq-2

Or I use a Mic2200 for the same purpose. HPF and two band parametric EQ
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MIC2200.aspx

and I recently purchased a Symetrix 5 band parametric EQ with HPF that I'm toying with, which is a bit more flexible than the Mic2200 with the addition of 3 extra PEQ bands.
Symetrix 551E
http://www.symetrix.co/faq-category/551e-five-band-parametric-eq/


Really if you got one of the above as a HPF at minimum and for some optimization of the frequency response at your listening position then the $680ish Cerwin Vega CV-5000 amp ought to do what my Crown XLS-5000 does. (since the Crown XLS-5000 is discontinued and the fire sales are over).
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1427623/cerwin-vega-cv-5000-pro-audio-amp-for-680-at-guitarcenter-com-using-15-off-couponcode-lday15



I personally would skip the two EP4000 amps idea. They don't jive with the Cap's that well. You want to drive the captivators at 2ohm stereo on a powerful amp to take advantage of the power handling capability, and the EP4000 just can't do it - so your left at 8ohm bridged mode, which if I remember correctly is still significantly less than the 2ohm stereo power of a CV-5000 or XLS-5000 which is 2,500 watts by 2 at 2ohm.

Never the less ---- 125dB at listening position from a pair of caps on a single EP4000 in my 3,500 cubic foot room is nothing to jeer at - but still you leave a lot of untapped capability in the subs. My pair of PB13 ultras could only hit 115dB at the listening position on the same dubstep songs that day we did our testing and they were double stacked in the corner while the two caps were on either side of my projector screen like in my signature picture hitting 125dB before clipping out the single EP4000 amp. The Crown XLS-5000 takes me into the 130 dB range at my listening position with my pair of caps. How often do I do that---seldom.....But it's a heck of a ride when I do.
Edited by Archaea - 11/14/13 at 7:50pm
post #4517 of 4725
Ha... my room is under 2000cu (1500-2000)...

I guess I will be OK with one EP4000 for now.

I just don't want to spend more money then not even be able to drap the needed power from the 20amp circuit.
post #4518 of 4725
new to the JTR subwoofer crowd, 2x Veneered JTR S2's have been ordered.

The long wait begins
post #4519 of 4725
Looking forward to seeing pics of those!
post #4520 of 4725
One more question on adding a second cap:

I currently run 1 cap 2400 on a bridged ep4000 at 8ohms which supplies about 1400w.

By adding a second I will need to go to 2ohms stereo for about 920w/each.

Since i am losing about 2db in power but gaining approx 3db from adding a second sub - Will I have any more headroom/volume or only more even frequency?
post #4521 of 4725
Goonstopher,

You'll really like having two subs running off a single EP4000 at 2ohm. It'll both sound louder and sound smooother (help rid the bass hotspots and nulls). My similar setup was amazing! But I was always a bit curious, because I knew I was leaving capability untapped...So my real advice is to sell or repurpose the EP4000.

Buy a Cerwin Vega CV-5000, or an Peavey IPR7500 - run each Cap at full power so you can take advantage of their capability.

You have two options for wiring.
1) You can either bridge the amp to run two 8ohm caps at a 4ohm load. or 2) you can run the caps in stereo (dual mono) two ohm. To do the second option you have rewire the original cap to 2ohm, and have Jeff pre-wire you new cap at 2ohm. The caps use dual voice 4 ohm voice coils and thus you'll have to change the wiring to present a 2ohm load instead of an 8ohm load. You can google this, it's a very common wiring question, or Jeff can walk you through this if you feel uncomfortable with it.

But really option 1 is the easiest, and the only thing you lose is that you can't adjust the captivator volumes individually, since they both will be receiving the same signal, volume, EQ etc. They would be treated as one unit. To do option 1 it is simply buy the second cap, and run the two caps from a bridged amp. To do this you'd wire the bridged amp to the first captivator, (assuming you have speakon connectors?) Then just get a speakon to speakon cable to run from the first cap to the second cap. That's why the caps have two speakon connectors in the back - so you can daisey chain two to bridge to four ohm load. You could link up to four 8ohm captivators to get down to 2ohm load.
Edited by Archaea - 11/18/13 at 8:50am
post #4522 of 4725
If you call musiciansfriend or guitarcenter, sometimes they will let you take advantage of the 15% off coupons on the CV and Peavey amps through customer service, even though the exclusion list on the coupons list those products out as exclusions.

My advice is to try the EP4000 single amp since you already have it. Then upgrade when, if you decide you want to use the untapped capability. (my guess is you'll always have it in the back of your mind to upgrade and at some point do exactly that).
post #4523 of 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Goonstopher,

You'll really like having two subs running off a single EP4000 at 2ohm. It'll both sound louder and sound smooother (help rid the bass hotspots and nulls). My similar setup was amazing! But I was always a bit curious, because I knew I was leaving capability untapped...So my real advice is to sell or repurpose the EP4000.

Buy a Cerwin Vega CV-5000, or an Peavey IPR7500 - run each Cap at full power so you can take advantage of their capability.

You have two options for wiring.
1) You can either bridge the amp to run two 8ohm caps at a 4ohm load. or 2) you can run the caps in stereo (dual mono) two ohm. To do the second option you have rewire the original cap to 2ohm, as have Jeff pre-wire you new cap at 2ohm. The caps use dual voice 4 ohm voice coils and thus you'll have to change the wiring to present a 2ohm load instead of an 8ohm load. You can google this, it's a very common wiring question, or Jeff can walk you through this if you feel uncomfortable with it.

But really option 1 is the easiest, and the only think you lose is that you can't adjust the captivator volumes individually, since they both will be receiving the same signal, volume, EQ etc. They would be treated as one unit. To do option 1 it is simply buy the second cap, and run the two caps from a bridged amp. To do this you'd wire the bridged amp to the first captivator, (assuming you have speakon connectors?) Then just get a speakon to speakon cable to run from the first cap to the second cap. That's why the caps have two speakon connectors in the back - so you can daisey chain two to bridge to four ohm load. You could link up to four to get down to 2ohm.

One cap will be right behind the couch (HEHE!) and one is on the other side of the room so I'd likely prefer to keep their volume different. I'm probably going to re-wire them to 2 ohms.
post #4524 of 4725
Just commited to buy my second Cap. It's used so I should get it quickly...

Ready to join the SERIOUS bass club!
post #4525 of 4725
My S2's is on their way. Any cap owners can tell me what the length of the power cables?
post #4526 of 4725
They are not exceptionally long as I recall from meets. Someone will probably recall the distance. 6 or 8 feet I would guess. The good news is they are powercon adapters which are like speakon and easy to mod the length by swapping out the cable to the connector.
post #4527 of 4725
Does co-locating subs have a different kind of impact vs spreading the subs around the room?
post #4528 of 4725
Quote:
Does co-locating subs have a different kind of impact vs spreading the subs around the room?

Co-location is merely wastage of valuable resources. It offers 6dB of extra gain depending on room, which you can achieve anyway by using both L/R inputs.
It is best to spread your subs and excite room modes from multiple locations in a room to have more balanced response over a wider listening area.
post #4529 of 4725
Ok.. Thanks
post #4530 of 4725

1. What does the pgm sel button on the back of the active captivator 2400 amp do? I'm guessing it stands for program select. 

 

2. Does it sound normal to have the sub volume knob at 12 (two clicks away from half) to get 75 db when calibrating with Audyssey. I thought I'd read somewhere that on other JTR subwoofers that they had the volume knob a couple of clicks from the lowest setting to get 75 db and it jumped to 85 db when the moved it up one click. I wanted to make sure that the xlr to rca converter that I got wasn't cutting out a bunch of the receivers signal. I bought this one http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000068O4D/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Edited by bassmant - 11/24/13 at 6:32pm
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