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Do all blu ray player produce same quality? - Page 3

post #61 of 162
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Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post

Give it up, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Actually, you still haven't grasped the concept. I will give up trying to explain it to you however.

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ANSI CR is only a measurement when the black and white checker board pattern is present.

Last time... every image has a measurable ANSI CR. Yes or No?

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There is no such thing as saying the watch has a higher ANSI CR.

There certainly is. Based on the example the 1000:1 display has a 5 times higher ANSI CR watch. Yes or No?

When you answer Yes to the above you'll have a chance to understand the rest.

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You question at the end about which is intended display contrast ratio doesn't make sense. The display with a better CR is going to look better.

Makes total sense which you are of complete agreement with by stating the better the (ANSI) CR is the better the watch will look. Now the part you can't grasp is the Detail setting brings you that better CR.

And if you grasp the rest you'll find the question actually addressed your so called intended image. Which I presume by your response you are saying both projectors produce the intended image even thought their ANSI CRs are wildly different. As such there is very little difference between the display and the player implementing the ANSI CR difference.
post #62 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by scubie02 View Post

by "last gen sony and pioneers" are you including the sony 350 and 550's? What's wrong with them? Seem like solid enough players to me, and don't have the horrendously slow load times of the earliest models. I've seen the last of the 350's discounted as low as $159 which seems like a steal given they were $300. I've recommended them to people who say they need to buy a new dvd player as giving them bluray for not much more than a run of the mill dvd player. I have one in the bedroom and have them at work and never a problem yet with one.

I agree 100%. I have the 350 and just love it. Does it mean that if I pay $1,000 or more for a blue ray player I am going to see a PQ improvement? Not enough to justify the price. To the op. Go with the best player as per the reviews or forum chats that is the cheapest. Paying anything over $300 for a blu ray player is just wasting money you can spend somewhere else.
post #63 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Last time... every image has a measurable ANSI CR. Yes or No?

NO No NO No.... Read up on ANSI CR. It is the measurement of a special test pattern. That is all it is period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

There certainly is. Based on the example the 1000:1 display has a 5 times higher ANSI CR watch. Yes or No?

It does not have any ANSI CR. ANSI CR is only measured with the ANSI checker board pattern. You can find this information about ANSI CR any where.

Please quit spreading false information. Every time you post false information, I have to correct you. It is getting tiresome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

As such there is very little difference between the display and the player implementing the ANSI CR difference.

A player or display does not implement ANSI CR. ANSI CR is a contrast measurement procedure. Please read up on it before posting about it again.

ANSI CR = ANSI Contrast Ratio
post #64 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post

A player or display does not implement ANSI CR.

It certainly does (not all by itself of course). If it didn't all displays would have the same ANSI CR.

Can't you understand the simple principle if you measure the darkest and lightest pixel of the watch you will know the watches' ANSI CR. There is nothing magic about a test pattern... all ANSI CR does is tell you the ratio of dark to light within any static image.
post #65 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

It certainly does (not all by itself of course). If it didn't all displays would have the same ANSI CR.

Can't you understand the simple principle if you measure the darkest and lightest pixel of the watch you will know the watches' ANSI CR. There is nothing magic about a test pattern... all ANSI CR does is tell you the ratio of dark to light within any static image.

The term ANSI CR is that special measurement of the pattern.

You can make up a new term "Charles CR" and call it what every you want.

ANSI CR is just the measurement of that special pattern. Yes, that pattern is magic. Without the pattern it means nothing.

There is no Contrast ratio processing of the bit stream. The display influences the CR in it's physical make up of the display. Different technologies have different contrast ratio due to the maximum possible brightness and the darkest obtainable black.

The ANSI CR pattern measures Black and White at the same time so the manufacture on a projection type display can't shut an iris on the light source to get a better static contrast ratio.

Why can't you understand that ANSI CR is and only is the measurement of that special pattern.

Dynamic contrast ratio is the measurement of lightest part of the images vs the darkest portion. Each display manufacture is free to measure Contrast ratio and Dynamic contrast ratio any way they like. At least with ANSI CR they have to measure that ANSI CR pattern.
post #66 of 162
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Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post

The term ANSI CR is that special measurement of the pattern.

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Why can't you understand that ANSI CR is and only is the measurement of that special pattern.

Because I look at ANSI CR as the process and results of measuring the 4x4 blocks. Not the pattern itself. Such that the static contrast ratio measured is important not what is being measured.
post #67 of 162
The checker pattern actually is only a pattern by which ansi cr is measured in order to stablish a baseline to compare pj's. A lot of people believe it is not a very accurate method in the way that it differs from reality unlike on/off cr.
post #68 of 162
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Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

A lot of people believe it is not a very accurate method in the way that it differs from reality unlike on/off cr.

I tend to believe it's a good test for image pop... often called the 3D look.
post #69 of 162
"Why can't you understand that ANSI CR is and only is the measurement of that special pattern."
ANSI CR is measured by a pattern same way as using a grayscale ramp to measure color temp.
If you have white walls in the room and display the checker Pattern your measurement would be different. Like I said before ansi cr indicate how much light is scattered in the optical path as your environment becomes part of the equation. A perfect projector and room (which doesn't exist BTW) would have its ansi cr equal to its on/off.
post #70 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

A perfect projector and room (which doesn't exist BTW) would have its ansi cr equal to its on/off.

That's irrelevant when you wish to compare two displays. One that measures (using the same method and environment) 1000:1 has more pop than one that measures 200:1... with the understanding that the contrast ratio itself doesn't restrict its ability to take advantage of the increased ANSI CR at or beyond certain levels.
post #71 of 162
For accuracy and consistency a near zero reflective room is needed.
post #72 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Last time... every image has a measurable ANSI CR. Yes or No?

No. Only ANSI checkerboards have ANSI CR.
post #73 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

No. Only ANSI checkerboards have ANSI CR.

I completely agree with you on a definition basis. It is what it is. However I see the process and results being important not the pattern itself. As such I see the watch having an equivalent ANSI CR... meaning it's measurement is based on the same (general) principle. The one principle is related close enough to largely explain the other.

Sort of a catchphrase like "Let's run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes it"
post #74 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I completely agree with you on a definition basis. It is what it is. However I see the process and results being important not the pattern itself. As such I see the watch having an equivalent ANSI CR... meaning it's measurement is based on the same (general) method.

What you are talking about has nothing to do with "ANSI CR".

When the term "ANSI CR" is used it has special meaning. And the meaning of ANSI CR has nothing to do with your watch measurement. Not one thing.

Out of curiosity, what do you do for a living?
post #75 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oz Man View Post

I agree 100%. I have the 350 and just love it. Does it mean that if I pay $1,000 or more for a blue ray player I am going to see a PQ improvement? Not enough to justify the price. To the op. Go with the best player as per the reviews or forum chats that is the cheapest. Paying anything over $300 for a blu ray player is just wasting money you can spend somewhere else.

I had the Sony 550 for a little over a year and just replaced it with the OPPO BDP-83 and, to my eye and maybe it's psychological, but I do see a distinct difference in PQ on my Panasonic TH-65PZ850U. The OPPO image is more detailed and definitely more film-like, meaning its image reminds me of what I saw in the theater more than the Sony. This was exactly what I was looking for in a blu-ray player so maybe I am being affected subliminally. Either way, it looks great.
post #76 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post

What you are talking about has nothing to do with "ANSI CR".

How so? ANSI CR measures the static contrast ratio of 4x4 squares and I'm talking about measuring the static contrast ratio of a watch image. The end result is a contrast ratio of each image (although ANSI CR typically averages the squares which might be difficult with a watch image). The process is extremely close outside of only one using ANSI's checkerboard.
post #77 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post

Out of curiosity, what do you do for a living?

I do tend to think rather abstractly and admittedly rather semi-direct at times... as witnessed by the sign outside my screening room.

post #78 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

How so? ANSI CR measures the static contrast ratio of 4x4 squares and I'm talking about measuring the static contrast ratio of a watch image. The end result is a contrast ratio of each image (although ANSI CR typically averages the squares which might be difficult with a watch image). The process is extremely close outside of only one using ANSI's checkerboard.

I'm not sure where the picture of the watch image is, but ANSI CR measures white and black quite a ways from each other (the middle of each rectangles). If the watch has fine detail of white and black then the contrast ratios between those are probably going to be closer to an MTF kind of measurement at full resolution or close to full resolution (like single or double pixel black and white checkerboards). If the watch has very little detail (like the ANSI CR checkerboards are very low in detail) and has about 50% white and 50% black then it might be like those checkerboards as far as intra-image CR. If it is mostly white with a little bit of black then the intra-image CR would likely be less than the ANSI CR, while if it is mostly black with a little bit of white then the intra-image CR would likely be higher than the ANSI CR, although it depends on how close the measurements are taken to the bright parts. And the intra-image CR is more of a concept since somebody has to decide where the measurements should be taken and then whether they should be averaged or something else. The ANSI CR spec goes into fine detail about how it is supposed to be measured and so has a pretty solid definition, but intra-image CR with real images is more what I consider a concept, like I said.

--Darin
post #79 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I'm not sure where the picture of the watch image is, but ANSI CR measures white and black quite a ways from each other (the middle of each rectangles). If the watch has fine detail of white and black then the contrast ratios between those are probably going to be closer to an MTF kind of measurement at full resolution or close to full resolution (like single or double pixel black and white checkerboards).
--Darin

Here is the link to the image in question: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post17350443

You will see the watch is on the arm and occupies about 1/70 of the image. Measuring it (the watch) would be nothing like measuring the ANSI checker board pattern.
post #80 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post

Here is the link to the image in question: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post17350443

You will see the watch is on the arm and occupies about 1/70 of the image. Measuring it (the watch) would be nothing like measuring the ANSI checker board pattern.

Thanks. I agree, it is very different for multiple reasons. One being that measuring on the watch would be a small area (finer detail) measurement. Also, I'm not sure if there is any video black there. For the band there looks like there isn't any black or white, so the ratio between the darker and brighter parts would mostly be based on gamma with many displays. Finer details may do well on a projector with high MTF at closer to full resolution. For instance, there was a specific Samsung A800B that only had a little more than 100:1 ANSI CR, but from looking at the pixels up close and knowing the DLP technology I suspect that this particular A800B had higher MTF at full resolution than many projectors with much higher ANSI CRs than it. It was amazing how little chromatic aberration showed up on a single line of white pixels for a projector with such low ANSI CR (especially for a single chip DLP).

And a room can kill ANSI CR while not affecting fine details most related to MTF at full resolution, so even in a white room fine details on the watch may do very well even as ANSI CR in the images gets to a poor level. One reason for this is what is considered poor for ANSI CR would be considered great for CR during an MTF test at full resolution. For instance, 50:1 ANSI CR would be poor by pretty much anybody's view, but 10:1 CR in a 1x1 checkerboard over the full image would be considered very good. A room that takes ANSI CR down to 50:1 might reduce the CR in an MTF test at full resolution from 10:1 to 9:1, still leaving excellent MTF. Of course, if the fine details in the watch don't have any black in them then there is even less relationship between an MTF test at full resolution and the CRs in fine details on the watch.

--Darin
post #81 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Thanks. I agree, it is very different for multiple reasons.

All of this is a given. The same as I'm going to TiVo with my Dish VIP722.
post #82 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

All of this is a given. The same as I'm going to TiVo with my Dish VIP722.

Not the same at all. It would be like calling your VIP722 a "TiVo HD XL". (IE calling it a specific model because ANSI CR is the result of a specific test).

So your saying that completing a FCC part 68 test is the same as completing any TIA 603 test? There both tests???? One tests telephone interfaces (PSTN) and the other tests land mobile devices.

That is dumb. Admit you were wrong!

You quoted "ANSI CR" which is a particular CR test. You can say the contrast ratio of portion of the image is greater. But you can't says the "ANSI CR" of the ring is greater. Contrast ratio is a generic term and ANSI CR is a special type of CR measurement. Do you know what ANSI is? It is a standards body.
post #83 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post

Not the same at all. It would be like calling your VIP722 a "TiVo HD XL".

You missed the concept. Everyone knows the VIP722 isn't a TiVo... as such the differences are understood. Also TiVo was used as a verb not a noun.
post #84 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

You missed the concept. Everyone knows the VIP722 isn't a TiVo... as such the differences are understood. Also TiVo was used as a verb not a noun.

I understood that. You have not used "ANSI CR" as a verb in any of your posts. That was another reason I said it was not the same comparison at all.

Every time you post, you dig yourself a deeper hole.
post #85 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post

I understood that.

Missed the concept again... explain the concept to me and I'll let you know if you have it.
post #86 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Missed the concept again... explain the concept to me and I'll let you know if you have it.

Charles is not able to learn understand the basics of the technology that he is trying to discuss. When proven wrong, Charles just keeps posting useless comment after useless comment.

I will not respond to any further posts from you on this ANSI CR subject unless you have a valid technical point. Discussing your broken usage of verbs and slang is pointless.

TIVO became slang just like Sony's "WALKMAN" did. ANSI CR would never become slang because there is already a word CONTRAST RATIO (with out the ANSI prefix) that is shorter and correct for non-ANSI CR measurements.
post #87 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post

TIVO became slang just like Sony's "WALKMAN" did.

Sorry, not even close.
post #88 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

All of this is a given. The same as I'm going to TiVo with my Dish VIP722.

More like if you said you were going to Tivo with your VCR. Very small area contrast ratio and contrast ratio for the middle of rectangles that are 480 pixels by 270 pixels for 1080p are definitely not measuring the same thing and that is true regardless of brand name or not.

Between that Samsung A800B with just over 100:1 ANSI CR and a Sony VW85 with about 400:1 ANSI CR which one do you think would have more CR for a single pixel checkerboard of white and black? Would it be more likely to be the one with more ANSI CR in this case (knowing the technologies) or the one with less ANSI CR. You seem to think that it would be appropriate to call the second measurement ANSI CR just because you refer to a DVR as a Tivo. Your DVR and a Tivo do basically the same thing much like a Ricoh copier and a Xerox copier do basically the same thing. Very large area CR and very small area CR don't, other than both being CRs and having white and black up at the same time. There are things that will affect both greatly and things that will affect one greatly and the other hardly at all (a white room being an example in one direction and bad misconvergence an example in the other direction). If they are both ANSI CR then how is it that an effect could kill what is actually named ANSI CR and hardly change what you refer to as ANSI CR at all?

You might as well call your leg an arm.

--Darin
post #89 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

More like if you said you were going to Tivo with your VCR. Very small area contrast ratio and contrast ratio for the middle of rectangles that are 480 pixels by 270 pixels for 1080p are definitely not measuring the same thing and that is true regardless of brand name or not.

Between that Samsung A800B with just over 100:1 ANSI CR and a Sony VW85 with about 400:1 ANSI CR which one do you think would have more CR for a single pixel checkerboard of white and black? Would it be more likely to be the one with more ANSI CR in this case (knowing the technologies) or the one with less ANSI CR. You seem to think that it would be appropriate to call the second measurement ANSI CR just because you refer to a DVR as a Tivo. Your DVR and a Tivo do basically the same thing much like a Ricoh copier and a Xerox copier do basically the same thing. Very large area CR and very small area CR don't, other than both being CRs and having white and black up at the same time. There are things that will affect both greatly and things that will affect one greatly and the other hardly at all (a white room being an example in one direction and bad misconvergence an example in the other direction). If they are both ANSI CR then how is it that an effect could kill what is actually named ANSI CR and hardly change what you refer to as ANSI CR at all?

You might as well call your leg an arm.

--Darin

+1

Well said...
post #90 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

More like if you said you were going to Tivo with your VCR.

TiVo and a VCR is like measuring on/off and simultaneous ratios (arm and leg). Measuring two simultaneous ratios would be closer to left and right arms.
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