The Official Integra DHC-80.1 Pre/Pro - Page 9

At the risk of going off subject slightly, be very careful about concluding that high frequency response is unimportant for people with substantial "hearing loss". The data cited is for threshold shifts with age but we do not hear music at or even near threshold. I'm well over 60 years of age and have a measured elevated threshold, especially in my left ear, but I can easily hear a 10kHz low pass filter switch turned on and off while listening to music at normal levels on a good system. And for what it's worth, I hear no significant difference in frequency response between ears on music despite the difference in their thresholds. Fortunately the brain has an adaptive filter that corrects for hearing losses, up to a point, so that subjectively we are able to substantially compensate for aging effects. Turning up the treble control sounds just as unnatural to me now as it did when I was 20. Threshold shift has little to do with musical appreciation and sound quality until it is extremely severe.

Beg pardon, Larry, but the high frequency roll-off begins at about 16K. The middle frequency thing is a narrow dip in response centered at 1K. There is nothing at 4K. I do not know Audyssey's exact rationale for these. I once read that the 1K dip was to attenuate problems in "typical" speaker crossover regions. Well, my speakers do not cross over anywhere near 1K. These deviations from flat are still quite small compared to most un-EQ'ed speaker/room response curves.

I would prefer these were not there, and they are easily removed by Audyssey Pro. Denons have the good fortune to be able to select a flat curve without invoking THX or needing Audyssey Pro.

Even with this minor frequency tailoring in the standard curve, I have found Audyssey invaluable because of the incredible job it does in the bass. I have never heard better bass integration anywhere than my system in my imperfect room with Audyssey and digital bass management in my 9.8.

You can update the firmware via USB or Ethernet with the 80.1. I set the video resolution to THROUGH so I can't comment on the quality. I send the HD-DVD and BD signals through to my RS15 projector, and have a Lumagen video processor for other sources, so I don't want any additional video processing from the prepro, so I can't comment on its video processing capabilities except to say it offers a LOT more adjustment options than the 9.8 did.

Is it really the case that there are no Audyssey EQ, Prologic, or other DSP capabilities possible for 2 channel analog sources with these processors? It's not uncommon to build A/D converters into the front end of DSP chips rather than include them as standalone chips, but nevertheless they have to be there if any of the digital functions are available.

Did you try calling "The Little Guys", at 18305 South Halsted Street Glenwood IL? And yes, for those who are wondering, that is their name of their business.

They are one of the few Integra dealers in the Chicago area, and like many places, just calling them may not get you a quote of anything other than MSRP. So going in person to the store to talk with them might be the better option if you want to try and work out a deal for one.

Hi,

No room correction system, including Audyssey, can change the reverberation time of a room. That requires acoustic treatments.

There is a concept called the critical distance of a room. This is the distance from a sound source in a confined space where the direct sound energy equals the reflected sound energy. When seated inside the critical distance this is called the near field. When seated outside the critical distance this is called the reverberant field.

Virtually all recordings are made with the recording engineer seated in the near field. In most home listening environments that don't have extensive acoustic treatments the listeners are in the more lively reverberant field.

As frequencies increase so does the directivity of speakers. To avoid an overly bright listening experience it is usually appropriate in typical home environments to gently roll-off the highs. This higher directivity at higher frequencies issue exists regardless of the content, and as I discussed earlier since popular music CDs are frequently mixed at higher average levels than movies, rolling off highs may be particularly helpful for listening to some music.

Although Audyssey can't change the reverberation time of a room, it can both smooth the frequency response and shape the response. By rolling off the highs it can effectively deal with the increase in directivity at the higher frequencies. That is what the Audyssey Reference Target curve is designed to do and this compensates for the differences in the acoustic environment between the recording studio and the home.

With regard to accuracy, if the acoustic environment and the monitoring levels in the studio were identical to the the acoustic environment and the listening levels in the home, then a flat response would accurately reflect the recording. However, in the vast majority of homes that is not the case. The acoustics are not the same and the listening levels are generally lower. To render accurate sound under those circumstances requires, not only rolling off the highs, but compensating for lower listening levels.

Audyssey achieves that via Dynamic EQ, that is it readjusts the MultEQ equalization which was only valid for film reference levels. Dynamic EQ accounts for human hearing's non-linear sensitivity, and it boost the bass, and to a lesser degree the treble, because hearing sensitivity drops off in the bass and treble as levels are lowered. It also boosts the surround levels because hearing from the rear is less sensitive than from the front. The net result of all these adjustments from a flat response is to provide a perceptually flat response when listening below the level the recording was monitored by the recording engineer. In other words it is not accurate, nor pleasing to listen to a flat response when listening below the reference level and Dynamic EQ fixes that.

Larry

Hi,

According to Chris Kyriakakis over at Audyssey the Reference curve is flat to 4 kHz, but after that it falls off gently. It's only about –2 dB at 10 kHz. After 10 khz it rolls-off a little steeper and is –6 dB at 20 kHz.

"Official" Audyssey thread. Posting #5761

I believe you are correct regarding the rationale for Audyssey's Midrange Compensation dip, but the dip is set at around 2 kHz.


I too have been removing this dip with Audyssey Pro.

By the way, I did a little research and found this curve showing THX Re-EQ.

THX Overview and Scorecard



It appears to start rolling off the highs earlier than Audyssey, i.e., between 1 and 2 kHz, this gentle rolloff continues until 20 kHz, where it take a steep drop-off.


Larry

Hi,

You make an excellent point regarding the fact we generally listen much higher than the threshold of audibility. And I imagine that as our hearing diminishes we have a tendency to compensate by listening at even higher levels.

Are you saying that you can hear these gentle roll-offs?

Thanks.

Larry

Larry,

I don't have one of these processors yet, so I can't claim with certainty that I can hear differences in all of the rolloff settings. I doubt I would hear any difference with turnover frequencies as high as 16K or even 10k if the rolloff is gentle enough. My present receiver does have Re-EQ which can be turned on and off and that is easy for me to hear, but that starts at a much lower frequency as you point out.

Tucker

I suppose I should try them again. I had a bad experience with them when I was shopping for my jvc rs25. (which I ended up buying from AV btw... GREAT service). They kept trying to push me in a direction I didn't really want to go. Anyways, I'll drive on down there I guess and see what I can haggle out of them

If it does not treat each output independently, it is nothing but a built-in Y adapter. What would be the logic for that?

If they are treated separately for Audyssey, I would buy one to replace my 885 since I have multiple subs. If not, I'm not sure of the value over the 9.9/886 except more HDMI inputs. ... and I sure don't need 7. I use two (satellite and BR/DVD)

In general, yes.


I find these startling but have no reason to doubt them. One reason for restricting the testing to the lower HF is that the purpose, as with most audiological tests, is to determine deficits related to hearing spoken language, not music.

OTOH, I have done some wide range (20Hz-20kHz) tests on myself and friends which correlate with the audiological tests done in the clinic but which are not statistically valid due to sample size. Many in my cohort of classical music lovers over 60 have significantly better hearing than the averages depicted in those studies. True, there were some with even more severe loss but many of us have no significant loss (<6dB) until above 10KHz and, for some, the roll-off begins much higher. As I said, I do not offer these findings as anything more than specific instances but it may be that my small sample is skewed for some reason.

Hi Kal,

I forgot that you are involved in this stuff in your real job.

The study also tested for what they called Speech-Frequency Hearing Loss. It was defined to by a pure-tone mean hearing loss of 25 dB or higher at 0.5, 1, 2, and 4 kHz.

Here's the study.

Prevalence of Hearing Loss and Differences by Demographic Characteristics Among US Adults

Larry

Well, the quote of Chris says what it says, though it is a little confusing as to whether he is talking about the SMPTE curve or the Audyssey curve, which are not identical. But, I could have sworn earlier quotes from Chris, as well as the standard graph that appears in Audyssey Pro showed flat response up to 16 k with the double knee rolloff above that plus the middle dip, which I though was at 1K, but might just as easily be at 2K.

In any case, the Audyssy Pro curve I use is stock except for removal of the middle dip. And, the resulting response is shown graphically by Pro as flat, except for the rolloff above 16K, which I cannot hear. I have not seen evidence of the gentle rolloffs in my use of Audyssey Pro. But, no sense quibbling. The end result is that Audyssey is remarkable and indispensable in what it does to improve the sound, as I am sure you agree.

There is no problem with the Integra products with digital inputs - HDMI, coax, Toslink. That goes for stereo as well as Mch. There is no A>D, so no DSP processing can be applied to analog inputs. So, just feed it digitally, and everything will be fine for stereo, too. For analog, I do not think any AVP will sound as good as an all-analog line stage, anyway. That's why I bypass my 9.8 for vinyl. Actually, my phono preamp has a volume control, so I bypass the old fashioned way: by swapping connections at the amps.

Hi,

I find Chris' comment quite clear.


You can of course always ask Chris if you are still not sure.

The description quoted above is further reinforced by the Audyssey Pro's graphic representation. Attached is a blow-up of the Audyssey Pro High Frequency Roll-Off 1, in red which is the same as the consumer version of the Audyssey Reference target curve. Although there is no scale on the curve, we can clearly see the Midrange Compensation dip which Chris has stated is at 2 kHz, and two roll-offs occurring above the dip can also be clearly seen. The other two gray curves beneath the red curve are the High Frequency Roll-Off 2 and the SMPTE 202M curve.

Larry

I stand corrected. Thank you.

I got everything connected, but at the Audyssey setup, I keep not deteting the right rear surround speaker, any ideas? I've walked through the setup verbatrim.
Larry

Do you hear the test noise from the Rs speaker? And if so, does it seem to be about the same loudness as the other speakers?

the testing starts from front left and works around each speaker, when I get to right rear no joy. As the speakers are tested, they light up; and I hear the test tone. Once I get to right reaR, no sound and non-detect.

I got up early and am going thru everything again, just like from the start. I have extra amps, so I'll pull out two of them' and make sure its no hardware. However I already did the exchange where I switched the amp for another BGW 750D; and it doesnt seem to be hardware related

going upstairs to solve this !!?? problem.Gotta have been something I'm not doing right.The new balanced connections have solved all my ground loop hum issues. I'll still isolate my ground however.

Are you using a 5.1 setup or more channels? If 5.1, they should be side surrounds, not rear.

Go to the rear of the processor and check that the Rs cable is connected to the correct jack. If not, do so. Done.

If so, try swapping it with the Ls jack. If the Rs speaker reproduces the Ls noise, the Rs jack on the processor is not working. If the Rs speaker remains silent, and the Ls speaker plays the Rs noise, the processor is fine, and you need to diagnose the Rs cable/speaker.

Happy hunting!

I checked with Audyssey and Chris Kariakakis assures me that there are A/D converters and available DSP on the 2 channel inputs on Integra pre-pros and most others. It's not hard to design a competent analog input stage, so I remain skeptical that there are any significant quality issues with 2 channel analog inputs. Of course there are no A/D's on the multi-channel analog inputs, like most receivers or pre-pros, so DSP for these must be performed in the source component and it wouldn't be surprising that the quality of these may not compare favorably with the DSP in the pre-pro or receiver for digital inputs.

Audyssey Pro is now working on my unit. It was something on Audyssey's side and they jumped right on it and fixed the problem. I'll have to say that I'm very impressed with Audyessy's product and support.

On a side note, I really like the "Interface 2" connection within Audyssey Pro available for the 80.1. It goes through the Ethernet port. So now I can do it wireless (no usb cable) via my laptop!

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the follow-up.

Did the solution involve switching from the USB to serial connection to the Interface 2 connection, or was the Interface 2 connection a sort of bonus? I guess I'm trying to get a better appreciation of what the problem was. As you know normally when running Audyssey Pro via the USB to serial connection there is no involvement with a connection to the Audyssey web site. However, I can see that an update to your Audyssey Pro software would be required to provide an interface for a new Audyssey Pro enabled device.

Larry

Larry,

They did not provide me with any details of what the actual problem was.

The new interface works with the Audyssey software just as it does now but, through your network (Ethernet may have been a poor choice of words) instead of a USB cable. The software prompts you for your unit's IP address. Pretty neat.

./;p0- 7w120-1234567890
=-

I received my unit and was in the process of going through the Audyssey set up. I have a 7.2 set up. Unfortunately, it looks like that won't work as you have to have the other two side surround speakers in order for the system to work. I have read through the manual and tried everything I could see in the menu. Once the set up gets to the side surround speaker and doesn't heard it, it quits and reports that it failed. It won't continue and check for the rest of the speakers. If you try to set up it up manually, it won't allow you to have the back surround speakers with out having the side surround ones. Am I correct, that if you don't have a 9.2 system you can't utilized the Audyssey set up?

That is pretty much the case with every AVR and prepro. The so-called "surrounds" are the side surrounds and they carry signals with 5.1 setups. The rear surrounds are in addition to these and should not be used instead of these. It has nothing to do with Audyssey.

It DOES indeed treat each subwoofer channel independently and does EQing for each. I verified this with both standard and Pro calibrations. Guess you'll have to replace that 885 of yours!