New HT speakers: comments & suggestions!

Howdy all!

Moved into a new house - excuse for new speakers!!

I have been using homebrew monsters. They have a big sound, go plenty loud, fairly smooth, easy to listen too. Big ugly black boxes though.

This system will see 50/50 HT and music. We're not extreme volume freaks but like to be able to turn it up some.

The room is HUGE: 6000+ cu ft.

The system will surround a 10ft (diagonal) projected image. A big, effortless sound is necessary. Same time, I don't want huge floorstanders.

Budget is around $1000 for the set of 5: fronts, center, surround. No 7.1 for me. Bass will be the topic of another discussion.

I ordered a pair of each of the below:

Magnepan MMGW. Have Maggies as the streo music system now, they are seductive... i have high hopes for these...

HSU HB-1
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hb-1.html

tSc TSB 5.25
http://www.thespeakercompany.com/TSB...air-P45C6.aspx

tSc LCR3-P (these are DIRT cheap, and all tSc speakers are 20% off now)
http://www.thespeakercompany.com/LCR...ers-P41C6.aspx

EMP Tek e5bi
http://www.emptek.com/e5bi.php

Any comments/suggestions? Any other speakers I've missed should give a try?

I plan to set up them all up and do head to head comparisons vs. my existing homebrew and each other. Whatever sounds the best stays. I may end up just rebuilding the homebrews in smaller prettier cabinets if that's what it takes.

Gratuitous pic of the homebrews attached. That's four 4 mids and one 30mm tweet per box. Parts from MCM a few years back. Sorry image is dark. Yes tweeter got damaged, have replacement in a box.

I am afraid of the same thing - But hopeful that at least the MMGW's and HSu's put on a good showing.

If not, the old homebrews have no problem, and into new cabinets they shall go!

out of curiosity: what type of potent speakers did the daughter end up going with?

shadyJ

I’ve owned a set of MMG’s for the last few years, they are awesome. If you lust after a set, order them from Magnepan and utilize the in-home trial. Worst case, it will cost you some shipping. Several of my friends have been seduced by Maggies… Big big effortless sound. They sound like an instrument, not a speaker. Great investment of $550. I have them crossed over at 80hz, no issues with bass localization or over-driving the Maggies.

I have high hopes the on-wall versions will provide a similar sound. They are dipoles, and when properly mounted and toed-in, are supposed to have a big soundstage. See this review: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/magnepan/mmgw.html

Power for any of these should not be an issue- if my trusty old Denon can’t push hard enough, then it’s an excuse to by separates  I’ve been lusting after an Emotiva setup.

Bass will be another matter. I have a homebrew 4x12” sub with 1200w amp. Tight and musical but may lack some spl for this room… May go with a high-end ED sealed sub, or build another (or multiple) DIY. Not entirely sold on the multiple-sub setups, seems mostly like a great way for sub makers to sell more subs.

cheers

nice setup!

You won't regret the Maggies a friend recently tried to upgrade to the NHT xD active speakers, and ended up sending them back, not as fun to listen to as Maggies! Anyway topic for another discussion.

Sub is a sealed tower, about 14x14 wide/deep and 48" tall. 2 drivers on each of 2 sides, designed to be "corner-loaded" into a room. Built it in college, it served as one of the legs of our dorm room loft!

The drivers are $40 MCM specials, http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-1220-/55-1220, poly cones and rubber surrounds. EQ'd with an Audio Control Richter Scale to be flat as possible. Very decent sub, really, but ugly box.

I may end up just rebuilding it as well, maybe 2 isobaric cabinets with 2 drivers each we'll see.

Let the fun begin!

Match One:

tSc TSB 5.25 vs. Homebrew vs. MMG’s

Cosmetics & Build: The TSB speakers very nice looking, well made, look like a 3 or 4 hundred dollar set. Very nice grill, nice binding posts, snazzy looking drivers.

Reference material included:

Diana Krall (various albums)
Seal (various albums)
Blue Man Group (Live at Venetian is a very challenging recording!)
MJ: Thriller (why not)

I know these recordings very well, they are old friends.

The TSB’s made a very good accounting of themselves. They have no obvious faults. Smooth, crisp without being bright, very intelligible. Ms Krall sounded only very slightly chesty (a common failing in budget 2-way systems with a smallish mid trying to handle bass as well). Seal sounded excellent. They handled the psychotic Blue Men very well till the volume went to 9.

Details were very good, though missing some of the finest details. Image was good as long as you were in the sweet spot, the speakers disappeared and threw a very nice wide soundstage. Outside of the sweet spot they sounded like fairly small, localized speakers. Piano sounded like piano through a good speaker… not like a piano in a room.

Dynamically, they sounded great at low to moderate volumes. Once the volume started going up they started sounding a bit strained… not overly surprising. They held out longer than expected (we’re talking LOUD) and had no obvious breakup though.

Vs. the MMG’s:
The magic Maggies remain my reference. They brought out the finest details missing in the TSB’s. Imaging is insane: does not matter where in the room you are, due to the huge radiating area and dipole effect, the speakers throw a wall of sound. Piano sounded like a piano in the room. Dynamics are excellent up to a point, where they start breaking up. At that point, it’s so loud you don’t realize how loud it is, cause it sounds so dang clean.

Vs. the Homebrew
The Homebrews were a nice surprise. I’ve not listened in stereo 2.1 mode forever, if ever. They have one obvious fault: a slight harshness in the upper midrange, most noticeable only at high volume. Otherwise, they sound like big, effortless speakers. Imaging is huge compared to the TSB’s. Ms. Krall sounds outstanding, aside from the bit of harshness in the upper octaves. Seal sounds like a big black guy with a great voice. The piano sounds like a piano in the room though behind a curtain… not as convincing as the MMG’s. Dynamics are incredible; I’d forgotten how efficient and how loud these suckers can go without sounding strained. I can literally crank it till it’s loud while I’m wearing earplugs, and they sound good. Blue Men cannot faze these.

Score: MMG>Homebrew>TSB’s

Result: TSB’s go back in the box and returned.

Final thoughts: I was impressed. They cost $103 for a PAIR after the 20% discount…. Incredible value for the buck. I doubt hombrews can be better for the money, and certianly not as nice looking.

Very musical, held up very well to critical listening. No real faults! Require the listener to be in the sweet spot, and are dynamically limited once the volume goes up and the party starts. I’d have no hesitation recommending these as a very nice, accurate set of speakers for audiophiles on a budget or for a small system. Stylish as well, wish I had an excuse to keep them cause they’re so pretty!

Match 2:
tSc LRC3 vs. homebrew vs. Maggies

this can be summed up in a couple words: wow what a value on a rockin speaker!

Looks: these are basic black boxes. No fancy trim, hi-gloss finish etc. Just black veneered boxes with simple black drivers, simple grills with a logo. $150 (less 20% discount) buys THREE. The assumption is thay you buy a separate pair of surrounds. They appear to be identical (left right center) with the exception that the logo is differently located on the center.

The sound is neutral, laid back, not forward, boomy, or beamy at all. Ms Krall sounds very good. Piano sounds excellent though like it’s at a bit of a distance. No obvious coloration anywhere in the acoustic range.

Definition is quite acceptable but not impressive like on the TSB’s or Maggies. I never got the “chill up the spine” that detailed speakers will give. But they are a pleasure to listen to, the louder the better. These suckers like to rock. They sound like a big, easy-going speaker. Much larger presentation than the TSB 5.25.

Imaging is very big and rather soft. There seems to be no definite sweet spot, more of a sweet area. Specific instruments cannot be precisely located, but as you move around the room, the image stays quite stable.

Dynamically, they go PLENTY loud, they rocked my big room with no issue, only running out of steam at very high volume levels. Paired with a big sub I have no doubt they will comfortable fill a large room with ease. They sound 3x as big as the TSB’s.

The Blue Man Group highlighted a difference between these vs. high-definition speakers: one track in particular has a very fast percussion number. The individual beats started to meld together into a continuous sound on the LRC3’s. On the Maggies, each hit was very distinct.

I would highly recommend these for the HT enthusiast who wants uncolored volume and a big sound. They sound great, they get out of the way and let the sound come though, and throw a nice blanket of sound over the room. The audiophile will want to hold out for a more defined speaker, as details are missing during critical listening.

Result: back in the box and returned they go. Versus the homebrews, they almost match how the effortless big sound (this is high praise!) but cannot match the details. If I did not have the homebrews, they would stay in a heartbeat. Comparisons with the HSU’s and EMP’s have yet to come, but I have a hard time imagining they will be able to beat the big easy sound of these tSc LRC3’s.

Really, not to say the LCR's are better' than the TSB's they each have their strengths. All IMHO, of course

The LCR's are fun to listen to, loud or quiet. They are uncolored but not impressively detailed: they do not add anything nasty to the sound, but do not get all the details from it either. Sitting in the sweet spot and listening for details and nuances is not particularly rewarding. No spine-chilling realism. They do have big-speaker ease of sound; laid back, like they're not even trying.

The TSB seems much more defined. Sitting in the sweet spot reveals much more detail and precise imaging. But they do sound like smaller speakers when pushed (they do only have ½ the midrange area) and do not sound like big' speakers as you get up and move about the room.

I'd say the perfect use of the LCR's would be a 5.1 setup with a big ported sub for HT. Blow some stuff up!

The TSB's would make an excellent 2.1 with a musical, sealed sub for critical listening at moderate levels.

Glad you enjoyed the write-up. Even if you're the only person who reads it, it helps me get my own impressions in order

MilkandC

I had to laugh when reading your comments Highlights how different people have completely different ideas in their head while using the same words!

When I say Home Theatre, I think of a group of folks sprawled on couches, with few or none of them in the sweet spot, and no one really paying attention to the auditory details. Instead, enjoying the big picture, explosions, and maybe even the story (facetious comment, that).

When I say Music, I mean put your rear in a chair in the sweet spot, hitting the Mute button on spouse/kids/phone (another facetious comment!), and doing nothing but listening to the nuances of your favorite music. Visualizing the strings on the guitar, watching the conductor wave his baton, marveling at how your listening room now sounds like a jazz club/church/concert hall.

So sounds like you and I have different ideas in mind

To put the tSc products in perspective:

The LCR's sound good all the time, whether in the sweet spot or no. They go soft, they go loud, they sound big, they like to rock. They are missing some fine details and do not have the best image (hard to pick out where individual instruments are) when listening critically.

The TSB's sound outstanding in the sweet spot, great detail and 3D image, but loose a lot of it when outside the sweet spot. They start to sound compressed a bit earlier (though we are talking LOUD). Glue yourself to the sweet spot, though, and be prepared to hear details and see an image that is truly "hi-end" (in my admittedly limited experience). They are prettier too.

Anyway they are so reasonably priced you can buy BOTH and see which works out for you! Moving from the Logitech, either one will be impressive. I'd suggest be sure to get a nice accurate sub, whichever way you go, as well.

HSU-time!

This is the most interesting speaker so far, and generated by far the longest listening time & review write-up.

I’ve been a fan of Dr Hsu since the original tube subs way back when, and the HB-1’s have had some outstanding press. I’ve been really looking forward to these.

Cosmetics: outstanding. Beautiful satin black finish, rounded corners. Solid, magnetized grill. They look and feel like quality. Solid and heavy. Very pretty gold binding posts. Physically large: much bigger and heavier than the other competitors. It needs to be a solid bookshelf to support these!

On to the sound: I found the HSU’s a bit tough to pigeon-hole.

They sounded spectacular with Diana Krall. I’ve read Dr Hsu uses the female voice as a reference for calibrating his speakers, and I believe it. She sounded GREAT. No noticeable coloration at all. No shoutiness, no chestiness.

The string bass was very well defined, very musical. The piano spoke with authority, it sounded like a dam’ piano in my room!

It got a bit odd from there. Seal’s voice sounded excellent but the other instruments started to sound odd. He has complex recordings with a lot of individual instruments/synth sounds, vs. Ms Krall’s very minimal voice/piano/string sounds. I ended up listening to a lot more music on the HSU’s vs. the others, as the HSU sound was tough to quantify. Here’s the impressions:

There is very little coloration overall. Piano, voices, strings, etc sounded very real. While in the sweet spot, they throw a nice big image, tough to tell where the speakers are.

They sound like big speakers, they communicate with authority. No stress apparent at elevated listening levels. Even driving them full-range with some bass-heavy material, the midrange stayed well defined and un-compressed.

These are also the only speakers so far that have some real bass. Not low bass, but plenty of mid-bass. Drums and such are authoritative. I suspect you could roll them over to a sub in the 60hz range comfortably. The others would need a crossover around 100hz to avoid stress.

Low male voices occasionally sound a bit enhanced. Not muddy: it is still a very well defined male voice. It is an odd sound: many cheap speakers have an upper-bass boom to sound impressive in the showroom, leading to boomy male voices, but they tend to be muddy. The HSU’s seem to have slightly (slightly!) elevated upper bass, but still very tight and clean.

I think they have a peak in the upper midrange/lower treble also. Above the range of voices, but below true treble. In the hand clap/crowd noise area. This was apparent on the live recordings: the whooping crowd at the end of a Blue Man track could be painful. And surprising, given how good the track itself sounded.

Dynamic response is outstanding. They start and stop fast. Not Magnaplanar level, but not far off. No muddiness, everything is very well defined. The impacts of percussion instruments are real impacts. The Blue Men sounded GREAT.

So far they sound very similar to the homebrews in many ways: big image, big speaker ease, dynamic, lots of detail. As mentioned, the homebrews have a upper-mid harshness also – very like the HSU’s. All in all, the 2 speakers sound very close, with the HSU’s having much more apparent bass, but possibly too much in the lower mid/upper bass region.

The jury is out on these guys. I have to listen to them some more. I went back and re-read some of the press, which states to toe the speakers in enough to cross in front of the listening position. I’ve not done this – will have to play with them over the weekend.

Comparing the HSU’s to the tSc LCR’s: They rock similarly, with an edge to the HSU’s in output before stress. HSU has a bigger lead in dynamics – faster and more precise. More bass, no contest, to the HSU’s. But switch back and forth, in casual listening, and it’s a tough call which is easier to listen to.

A 5-channel setup of HSU will run about $840 including the center. A five-channel LCR setup will be around $220…. The $620 difference will buy a nice sub. Or a budget sub and a budget receiver. Food for thought for the enthusiast without much moolah

More to come.

Interesting that you’re running a stereo pair of the HC-1’s. VERY interesting about how the HC is missing the HB’s peak…

I’d come across the SVS products as a likely candidate as well. They have a great pricing discount on a full HT package, and we sure know it’s a good brand. I bet they rock. The WAF’s look interesting for audio purity but I doubt (given how small they are) that they’ll be able to live up to my dynamic needs… The Ascends are a bit pricey.

I did a LOT of listening over the weekend and had a couple revelations on the HSU’s… more to come

MMGW’s

Unfortunalty, this was a disappointment. I was really looking forward to these: I love my MMG’s to death, enjoy the big dipolar sound, they are the priciest of the bunch, and (bonus) made in the States too. Help support some Minnesotan’s ice-fishing lifestyle, no doubt.

I set them up carefully, and…. The sound was disappointing, very thin.

Checked the polarity – that’s how thin they sounded. Monkeyed with position, height, toe in, etc. They are designed to be mounted on the wall, vertical, toed-in a good amount. I could never get them to sound full and rich at all. Upper mid and treble are gorgeous, and the “big” sound is there (though smaller than the MMG’s for sure), but everything from lower midrange on down was very thin and reedy. The little sub I’m using for these comparisons is crossed at about 80hz – the MMGW’s sounded like they were missing another 100+ hz above that!

Extremely inefficient as well: I knew this going in, but having the HSU’s hooked up for a/b, the comparison was really driven home. The dial had to be cranked up another 12-15 notches to equal the spl. And the sound was never full or involving.

Really too bad. I’ll give them one more listen tonight, but I think those go back to the great wet North.

HSU’s Continued:

Now, here we have a contender!

Initial impressions were mixed: seemed like there was a peak in the upper mid, and a bit of a boom in the lower mid/upper bass. After some reading, I did a couple things: 1) pulled them out farther from the rear wall, about 2ft total (they have 10+ feet of room on either side) and 2) toed them in so that they ‘cross’ in front of the listening position.

Results: wow. Really changed the experience.

The boom is 90% gone. They may have a little bit of an elevated upper bass, but if so, it’s minor and unobtrusive. The excess male chestiness is gone.

The soundstage they throw is awesome. Toeing them in really “made” the sound! It’s huge. The stereo image moves with you around the room and is most impressive. Where before, they sounded a bit beamy and tight on the treble, they now sound open and delicious.

They have lost none of the detail either. Percussion, impacts, guitar picks, are fast, felt, and impressive. They really do sound like a ‘big’ speaker, and they cover so much of the bass range they never sound thin. The sub is still necessary to round out the bottom, but bass strings sound a-ok and most impressive even on their own. CLEAN, too.

These may well have showed-up my Homebrews. The Homies have a more pronounced upper-mid spike (bad), a bit more detail (good), a bit bigger sound (good), and no bass to speak of. I built them to be this way: very clean mid and treble, little to no output under 100hz. The Homies do “tell tales” when fed poor recordings more so than the HSU’s – they do have a more defined, clean, almost sterile sound. Nothing added (aside from the upper-mid peak). Next to the HSU’s they sound thin, but this is probably more a function of sub crossover & level then anything else.

The HSU’s are going to stay the majority of the 30-day trial period: the first contenders with serious potential to knock off the Homebrews. Nice.

EMP’s are on their way but I feel a little embarrassed pitting them against these beasts… cute little 5.25” drivers won’t be able to keep up, I suspect.

The SVS solution may be up for an audition as well. This company Is known for rockin. The 5.0 channel SCS-based “hi-output” setup is almost exactly the same price as the HSU setup…

grills on - I have inquisitive kiddos, they are generally well-trained, but it just takes once.... Like you, I heard some folks say they sound better off, but I sure don't have a 'golden ear'. I could not tell a difference in 10 minutes of comparison.

moving them out from the wall and toe in made a BIG difference!

MMGW verdict: sorry, they will not do.

I triple-checked the phasing (they really sounded thin), made sure no weird settings were on, and did some a/b/c listening vs the HSU’s and Homebrews.

The MMGW’s have a very nice midrange. Sax sounds great. Female voice sounds excellent. But the lower end (lower midrange on down) and treble (violin on up) is just not there. It sounds like 1 driver is working in a 3-way system. The treble was attenuated enough that cymbal brushes were not noticeable: but they popped out on the HSU’s. Deep male voices sounded thin and decidedly un-deep. Really too bad, I am disappointed. I’d guess the MMGW is just too small to do any bass, and lacks any sort of tweeter. The midrange sounds much like the MMG but still without the authority and ease.

They never sounded like the “band was in the room” like the MMGW’s do all the time. The HSU’s and Homebrews can fool you into thinking the band is there pretty frequently.

The MMG remains my reference for chill-up-the-spine detail and image. It has enough surface area to carry upper bass/lower midrange with authority and without strain. It does sound stressed when fed full-range bass-heavy tracks – which is why the smart guys invented crossovers & subwoofers. The quasi-tweeter goes plenty high enough that nothing seems to be missing. I’ve heard pro reviewers complain that the very top end of the MMG is gone, and the speaker is missing some “air”, but it’s beyond my range of hearing. Personally I kinda doubt the frequency response of most pre-reviewer’s ears. C’mon, most of them are well into middle age, and we know hearing goes away for the “chronologically rich”, especially in the treble… anyway, that’s a topic for another thread.

The MMGW gets an RMA number and goes back in the box.

I came this close to buying a set of the SVS SCS speakers - but even on sale, they push $400 with (rather pricey) shipping. $400 a pair is getting spemdy for this group - and buys some pretty serious tower speakers, like the new EMP Tek E5Ti.

hmmm..
maybe I should try a set of the SVS vs HSU vs Elemental Designs A6-6T6. I suspect we'd get into the area of "diminishing returns" pretty quickly.

I hear you on the ordering-without-intention-to-keep bit. But, these folks are all online-only, maybe you could listen to them at their (one) location, and they have generous return policies. The folks I've talked to at a couple of the manufacturers did not mind - they just said be sure to give them a fair trial, experiment with positioning etc before kicking them out.

once a winner is decided I'll get busy setting up the HT. The previous house had a 120" projector setup, but I could control the light pretty well. I can;t control the light at the new place without really messing up the interior - lots of tall windows, etc. So will plan to buy a big TV over the Black Friday weekend, then get everything set up.

Then I'll get the WOTW blue-ray and put them through their paces

Cheers

the emp's got messed up - they sent a single center channel. weird. some warehouse stock-picker wasn't awake yet or something.

I hope so - working on it! they are 'expediting' shipping a set of bookshelves.

A set of SVS SBS-01's are on the way. They should compete well with the others. The SCS are a bit too spendy for this group.

The HSU's have been seeing daily use, they are seductive. The best so far. Really amazing how good a 6.5" paper midrange can sound. nothing fancy - no carbon fiber, no phase plugs, no fancy electronics, no nothing - but sounds just great.