Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" DIY kit - Page 72

I know one thing from all these measurements. The rooms truely are the key to the best bass response.


Mk's room has sick gain and incredible bass control. Lucky BASTARD!!!


He needs a disclaimer on his measurements because very few are going to get the same response and we do not want to mislead the public

nwboater's response seems like what most would get. It does show a rolloff below 30Hz. Could that be EQed flat and so we get a "Flatter" response down to 10Hz?

Anyone getting 110dB at 10Hz?

Well I haven't put it together yet so I would rather not have to do it again when finished. I sent a PM tp Tom and asked him to chime in on the subject so I will wait and see what he thinks of the idea. I agree with you that it probably wouldn't hurt but I just don't want to change anything unless I am sure it won't change things for the worst.

I get great room gain also. Right now I have a shiva x in a sealed box that has extension to 20hz so I can't wait to see what this beast will do.

Does danley use foam too?

Did we ever discuss why Danley wouldnt use something with some density (OC703) and true absorption. Foam doesnt do much.

Yes, foam comes with the kit but I was wondering the same thing you were.

Hi TCARCIO, all

Go ahead and assemble the kit as per the instructions.
If you wish to add more absorption as a couple people are experimenting with, wait to see what the outcome is and if you choose to add more, it goes where it is most effective, in the area in front and behind the drivers radiator and at the mouth if desired.

What would be of more concern is properly equalizing the system in your room.
In larger scale rooms where most of our products go, eqing the system is a normal part of the system alignment.
In a living room, one is dealing with the lowest strongest modes and so what one measures at the listening position is the speakers response added to the rooms transfer function.
The REW software that has been mentioned here is close to a miracle tool for home bass eqing. I can derive an eq curve or peq settings with a program I use for crossovers but I need the response curve file as input.
The REW program seems to combine these steps so it makes sense to use or at least investigate.

In the commercial sound / recording industry, there are a couple useful rules about eq to keep in mind. When a system is minimum phase (has a phase response which changes according to changes in amplitude response), then either a peak or a dip in response can be flattened with proper (complimentary) eq.
In this case, the fix is total, one complimentary curve can off set another perfectly, consider the old RIAA curve applied to records covered most of the bandwidth.

If you measure a woofer's response outdoors, this is what you see, a minimum phase response.
Anything you see here if fixed in amplitude will also be fixed in phase.
For designing the crossovers for the speakers at work, I raise them up on a tower in addition to a TEF machine to minimize the sound, which did not originate at the speaker.
I don't want / can't have anything other than the first arrival direct signal, what the speaker is doing.

Add a room and now one has a mixed system. A notch, in fact most notches are caused by a reflected signal returning and arriving out of phase (a delay corresponding to 180 degrees of phase), which cancels out the source.
These aberrations CAN NOT be fixed with eq and if your try to fix the amplitude response with a boost, you will be screwing up the phase response.
Thus, in room or live, one should not try to lift up obvious nulls even if an RTA says it's working.
Notice in some rooms, there is another way to get a null which is a resonant absorber such as a diaphragmatic wall or un-intended Helmholtz resonator.

Once your below the lowest room mode, then it is ok to apply lift, you are out of the range where you get reflections etc. The only down side of boosting is that say a +6dB lift at some point means that with a flat spectrum signal, that boosted range will reach amp limiting at 1 / 4 th the power of everywhere else.
Hope that helps,
Best,
Tom Danley

Hey guys,
I knew my room was great for bass when I put 2 18 inch folded horn subs in there and would hit 125 db's on WOTW and 110 db's with Pulse(uncorrected numbers) so I was getting even more than indicated. Those subs were tuned around 60hz and I still got high spl down low. Knowing how powerful horns were I was just waiting for a low tuned horn to come out. Introduce the DTS-10 or even the THT sub. I can tell you this, I have never felt pulse waves like this before. Since my meter is toast I can not compare equally(as in spl) so when I said the 50 cal was better with the eD it may have been just louder. I will turn up the Danley's tonight and see what they can do. I have Terminator Salvation, Harry Potter, and Public Enemies for movie night tonight. I will say that the Danley has bass I have never heard before in the way it presents itself. It is very subtle. The difference between it and the eD is obvious but whether one is better than the other is a preference. The eD is a brute(multiples anyway) and when it hits you hair stands up, your body tingles, you feel the wind in your face, and you can hear it(bass not the subs). When the Danley hits you don't hear much at all, you just feel pulse waves coming at you with all the effects of the eD. I don't know how to explain it yet. I am not done rearranging my theater and I will be adding a midrange horn as well. I am lucky Danley did not release these earlier when I built my back stage. I know I would have 2 of them making up the riser for the back row of seats with the 2 up front. I do like the bass coming from them but the big test will be this week. When the guys hear these(blind, yes these are hidden behind the curtains) and see if they notice anything different. They will suspect something because they will be watching demos again. They won't know what though as I do this to them for any piece of gear including subs, speakers, processors, amps, etc...

peanut gallery......for mk. nice first impressions write up.

James,

Isn't demo testing hard work?

So which of the two do you think goes lower bass wise? So you are saying the attack of the DTS-10s is better but is there more detail in the eD's?

Thanks MK. You'll like the gunshots in Public Enemies. Each gun has it's own distinct sound, not just a generic sound for different guns. I really liked the film too.

Can't wait to hear what you get when all the setup work is finished.

They are very familiar with the system.

you are referring to the scene when they get held up in the house at night in the forest and they have the shoot out there. I found that to be one of the better scenes and the guns did sound different, although not sure I am a fan of the HD camera thing especially in the darker sequences.

Can you elaborate on this in another thread? I have been playing with this a little as well, and I'm wondering what direction you are heading in.

The Demo's are the fun part. Building and setup and calibration(with REW) are the harder parts but still easy, it just takes time. According to REW they both go as low as each other in my room. Right now I don't trust REW as my meter bailed out on me. I could run to radioshack to get a digital meter but I could also get a better meter. I am still up in the air. I don't know if I would call more detail, maybe it was just louder but I can not tell until I get anothet meter. The eD's hit you more often than the Danley's. When the Tumbler drives by the eD's will always make your hair stand up instantly. I am not saying the Danley's are not tight or fast or whatever because they are, just as accurate or moreso than the eD's. They just deliver bass differently. I will do more testing tonight with more material like WOTW and The Incredible Hulk.

MK:

Try the train arrival scene in Polar Express if you have it. We watched it the other night. Incredible.

Spoiler warnings

That scene and throughout the film.

Tom, thanks so much for all this good info. And you pegged it. The EP4000 amp had HP filters at 30 hz on! Turned them off and what a difference.

The first is at the horn mouth.



The second is at the LP


This is a huge improvement!

Now I have lots of other issues to work out. I have a bad 60 (?) hum. At times when I stick my head at the mouth I can hear what in my old tube days we called 'motorboating'. I need to get the mic on a cushioned pad. And I need to turn off other sound producers.

Don't think I'll post any more graphs until most of that gets worked out. But just wanted to show the big difference with the 30 hz filter turned off, and for others not to worry about any low end dropoff in the DTS10.

Thanks again to everyone for all the help and tips.

Rod

That is a huge difference NWboater! Very impressive low end gain and you have enough output to crossover at 80hz Hopefully you can sort out that midbass valley.

MK Please post music impressions

It sounds like you are now getting an accurate reproduction. The Tumbler scenes are hit and miss for ultra low growl and presence in both movies. Pop in T2:RoTH and you will now find many things are off, where you will wonder what the mixers where doing. A small impact/explosion will pressurize the room and make you fear for your drivers, and in the next humongous explosion covering a city block a second later will sound like it was taken from an old Simon and Simon episode. Welcome to the blessing/curse of source accurate bass.

The DTS-10 just went up another notch.

It's like when you get your first set of really accurate speakers and realize you can hear the aliasing in 128bit MP3s, and really are going to have to re-encode all your audio.

I don't know if it is an accurate thing or not. The eD's are very good but when you have enough to keep the distortion down and not overdrive them they become excellent. I did notice what you are talking with the eD's as well. I am talking about when there is a big bass moment that I am used to. The tumbler scene when it drives by delivers big bass, especially when it turns around after taking out the dump truck. The difference is audible bass. Now I may have the danley's turned down and without a meter I will never know. I might just pick up a digital meter tonight and find out for sure.

Brandon,
The dts-10 has to be a huge improvement over one eD with the results I am getting with 2 vs 8. I wonder if the mains being horns as well makes a difference in the total sound and if I had all sealed speakers(like my M&K's) with my sealed subs would match better as well.

I am adding a 3731 midsection to my 3622n's or I will sell my speakers and just get the 3731's.

MK,

Thanks for the impressions. I too just watched the Dark Knight with the DTS10 and it was a good experience. I believe that the pulse waves you are talking about are 13-25hz and the DTS10 at good levels is incredibly clean sounding to me. With exposed drivers even very good ones there seems to always be just a little bit of extra noise from the cones that is present. Not high THD per se but just extra spurious noises you know? This is what I think is going on anyway.

BTW,

I've got to say that I think your graphs are suspect. They look almost exactly like the ones from your sealed subs with no evidence of the 54hz DTS10 spike, which should be there somewhere and they look like a reverse cal file to me. Everyone has some sort of issues in their FR somewhere. Who knows maybe you do have that pretty of a response naturally and I just wan't someone to join me in difficult room acoustics land.

Can you take a close mic with one DTS10 mouth after you get a new SPL meter? You need to do that to at least get the DTS-10's leveled out right with the mains. You should jump up to a Galaxy CM140.

There you go. When in doubt compare to a reference like the Danley DTS10 outdoor graph. Yours looks basically like mine and Fatawans so I'd say you are cooking with fire now.

BTW. Is your DTS10 really close to the listening position?

Ricci,
The 54 hz spike was there at lower levels and with just the dts-10's on. I think I have some cancellations going on when I turn my mains on and louder. I don't trust these just yet as well but I don't know if I can wait for a new meter. Where could I pick one up or should I just get the digital RS meter now? I will show you guys later all my graphs and how as I turn things up the graph gets better. This happens with the mains only. Maybe you guys just want the DTS-10's graphs?