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Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" DIY kit - Page 323

post #9661 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Hey guys, How do I model a DTS-10 in winisd?
You can't. You need to use horn modeling software. And you need the driver specs; those aren't LAB 12s.
post #9662 of 10012
Thread Starter 
You can't. Winisd isn't set up for horns. Just sealed ported bandpass and passive radiator.
post #9663 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You can't. You need to use horn modeling software. And you need the driver specs; those aren't LAB 12s.

I figured that. I am just trying some stuff out. BTW, Bill, how can I wire 3 DR-250's as an array? I can PM you. I have 2 now wired as parallel for an 4 ohm load what about 3? I want to make a tower.
post #9664 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I figured that. I am just trying some stuff out. BTW, Bill, how can I wire 3 DR-250's as an array? I can PM you. I have 2 now wired as parallel for an 4 ohm load what about 3? I want to make a tower.
You need 2 ohm capability, there's no way to wire three cabs other than parallel to deliver equal voltage to each.
post #9665 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You need 2 ohm capability, there's no way to wire three cabs other than parallel to deliver equal voltage to each.

Oh okay, no problem I have that in spades! I am trying some new things.
post #9666 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

You will lose some efficiency, but it would definitely like having a 3rd without using more space.

I have 3 DTS 10'S. If I would do the LMS-R 12 switch would it be like having a 4th DTS10? Im wondering how much better in movies this would make it? My room is 16 foot wide, 21 foot deep and 9 ft ceilings.

1- would switching to the LMS-R DRIVERS give me more top end? How many more db could I get at the listening position?
2- Is the LMS-R driver better than the AXIS 12 that they make? Here is the link.

http://tcsounds.com/products-2/drivers/

Where would I get the ring spacers that RICCI says you need for the clearance? Ricci if you are seeing this what do you think of me switching my drivers? I could wait till I blow them up and start replacing them at that time. lol.


I am running crest 9200 amps which is sending 2200 watts @4ohm to each DTS-10. So basically 1100 watts @4ohm for each driver. Would that be enough power for the LMS-R?
post #9667 of 10012
DTS-10 owners, do you know your -6 dB point of your response? My DTS-10's went deeper than all my other subs except my present system.

-6 dB point was 8.5hz
-10 dB point was 7 hz.

My current system is -6 dB @ 9hz
-10 dB @ 4.5hz

This without any EQ.
post #9668 of 10012
Well, based on the test data, it is a worthwhile upgrade if you are pushing them pretty hard.
If you are not bottoming them or having any issues, I doubt it would be worth the money as the loss in efficiency would detrimental. Three DTSs are pretty strong in any environment.

There is at least a 3db or greater increase in most areas of the curve. That is like having another DTS.

If you upgrade all three it would be like having six if you can supply enough power to them all. There is no question the LMS drivers are superior to the factory drivers included with the kit in both distortion, power handling and excursion.
It is not a cheap upgrade for sure but I would do it before I added another huge box to my room.

If you upgrade, you would benefit from more power to each cab too.

The ring is simply a wood ring cutout that goes between the driver and the cab for motor clearance, not rocket science.

Either that or sell them and build two GJALLARHORNS!
Edited by jpmst3 - 2/11/13 at 2:34pm
post #9669 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Well, based on the test data, it is a worthwhile upgrade if you are pushing them pretty hard.
If you are not bottoming them or having any issues, I doubt it would be worth the money as the loss in efficiency would detrimental. Three DTSs are pretty strong in any environment.

There is at least a 3db or greater increase in most areas of the curve. That is like having another DTS.

If you upgrade all three it would be like having six if you can supply enough power to them all. There is no question the LMS drivers are superior to the factory drivers included with the kit in both distortion, power handling and excursion.
It is not a cheap upgrade for sure but I would do it before I added another huge box to my room.

If you upgrade, you would benefit from more power to each cab too.

The ring is simply a wood ring cutout that goes between the driver and the cab for motor clearance, not rocket science.

Either that or sell them and build two GJALLARHORNS!

So I would need to switch amps too? I have 2 crest pro 9200 which are 2200 watts at 4ohm each channel. The extra channel I am using to power my center channel. 1100 watts @4ohm will not push each LMS-R 12 TO FULL?
post #9670 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

So I would need to switch amps too? I have 2 crest pro 9200 which are 2200 watts at 4ohm each channel. The extra channel I am using to power my center channel. 1100 watts @4ohm will not push each LMS-R 12 TO FULL?

Doubtful, but you would have to ask the folks that tested them exactly where compression and limitation of the horn design itself hamper the drivers in relation to power added.

I would assume they could take a good bit more power, as the factory drivers can handle that without distress.
After all it takes double the power, all else being equal, to achieve a 3db gain.
Edited by jpmst3 - 2/11/13 at 3:56pm
post #9671 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

There is at least a 3db or greater increase in most areas of the curve. That is like having another DTS.


Depends; two co located , w/the 2nd getting same power as the 1st, should give +6 dB.

If not co-located, anything can happen.
post #9672 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Depends; two co located , w/the 2nd getting same power as the 1st, should give +6 dB.

If not co-located, anything can happen.

Definitely. I was just loosely generalizing about upgrading one cabinet and adding more power to it.
post #9673 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Doubtful, but you would have to ask the folks that tested them exactly where compression and limitation of the horn design itself hamper the drivers in relation to power added.

I would assume they could take a good bit more power, as the factory drivers can handle that without distress.
After all it takes double the power, all else being equal, to achieve a 3db gain.

Let me make sure you understand. I am using one channel of my crest 9200 for each DTS-10. thats 2200 watts @4 ohm per dts-10 , so 1100 watts @4ohm per driver.

If that is not enough what amp would I need? One of those knock off Lab G's?
post #9674 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Let me make sure you understand. I am using one channel of my crest 9200 for each DTS-10. thats 2200 watts @4 ohm per dts-10 , so 1100 watts @4ohm per driver.

If that is not enough what amp would I need? One of those knock off Lab G's?

Duh, I missed that, sorry!
However, I am still not sure about how much more power would be useful if any.
Perhaps Ricci could elaborate based on the test results.

I can't believe you have not bottomed the drivers with that much power.
post #9675 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

DTS-10 owners, do you know your -6 dB point of your response? My DTS-10's went deeper than all my other subs except my present system.

-6 dB point was 8.5hz
-10 dB point was 7 hz.

My current system is -6 dB @ 9hz
-10 dB @ 4.5hz

This without any EQ.
Accurately measuring low freq response that low is often not a trivial task. First there is the actual microphone response-not many mics measure accurately that low.

Then there is the response of the measurement system electronics. It could be rolling off the low freq levels.

So just as a word of warning-the levels may actually be HIGHER than what is measured that low..

And of course you start to have issues with some of the electronics in the system. Many amps start rolling off that low-as do processors.

So trying to get really low is a bit more involved than just the loudspeakers used.
post #9676 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Accurately measuring low freq response that low is often not a trivial task. First there is the actual microphone response-not many mics measure accurately that low.

Then there is the response of the measurement system electronics. It could be rolling off the low freq levels.

So just as a word of warning-the levels may actually be HIGHER than what is measured that low..

And of course you start to have issues with some of the electronics in the system. Many amps start rolling off that low-as do processors.

So trying to get really low is a bit more involved than just the loudspeakers used.

Well stated. smile.gif
post #9677 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Duh, I missed that, sorry!
However, I am still not sure about how much more power would be useful if any.
Perhaps Ricci could elaborate based on the test results.

I can't believe you have not bottomed the drivers with that much power.

I have! I have a mini dsp with a HP filter at 14 htz . Im thinking the better drivers could take more without bottoming out? Im 14ft at my listening position and would love 128 -130 db on explosions without worrys.
post #9678 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

So I would need to switch amps too? I have 2 crest pro 9200 which are 2200 watts at 4ohm each channel. The extra channel I am using to power my center channel. 1100 watts @4ohm will not push each LMS-R 12 TO FULL?

Kutlow,
I am happy to see you still have your DTS’s. I had the same questions as you about output when upgrading to LMS-R’s so I made this chart to help me decide. I was considering adding a 3rd, but upgrading to the LMS-R’s is like adding another DTS without the extra room it would occupy. My room is about the same size as yours, except I have 8ft ceilings. As you can see, the max output will be like adding a 4th in your situation.




Because the LMS are dual VC’s you can wire them to either get an 8 ohm or 2 ohm load. My amps will provide 3600w when bridged into an 8 ohm load so that is what I will be pushing to each cabinet. Most amps cannot handle a 2 ohm load when bridged (I am not sure about yours), but you could run one cabinet off of each channel of the amp into a 2 ohm load. You will need allot of power to push these effectively because of the reduced efficiency. I believe Ricci had 2800w into 8 ohms available when he tested these, and stated there might be more left in the tank because they were amp limited on some of the low frequency tests.
Here is the article that you should read that compares the two, and talks about how thick the spacing ring needs to be.
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=1

I ordered the LMS-R’s today.
post #9679 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I have! I have a mini dsp with a HP filter at 14 htz . Im thinking the better drivers could take more without bottoming out? Im 14ft at my listening position and would love 128 -130 db on explosions without worrys.

Well, then....Hell Ya!
I would definitely do the upgrade before you shred a driver. If it were me, I would do that before I added anther DTS.
post #9680 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocDoc View Post

Because the LMS are dual VC’s you can wire them to either get an 8 ohm or 2 ohm load. My amps will provide 3600w when bridged into an 8 ohm load so that is what I will be pushing to each cabinet. Most amps cannot handle a 2 ohm load when bridged (I am not sure about yours), but you could run one cabinet off of each channel of the amp into a 2 ohm load. You will need allot of power to push these effectively because of the reduced efficiency. I believe Ricci had 2800w into 8 ohms available when he tested these, and stated there might be more left in the tank because they were amp limited on some of the low frequency tests.
Here is the article that you should read that compares the two, and talks about how thick the spacing ring needs to be.
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=1
I ordered the LMS-R’s today.

Just jumping in without reading but I have to ask how you guys have your dts eq'd. Do you have a HPF in place? Cause I drive the balls out of mine no mercy style approx 2kw each cab and never have issues. True I need a HPF and going to put one in at 11Hz for those unseen content movies of single digit LF. Last time I even remember an issue was full tilt volume watching "The Grey" plane crash scene. Not a good movie IMO but i heard drivers clank a quick second at the end of that crash scene which probably has very low single digit content in it.

That's with movies, because music doesn't go into the single's if at all..Two dts-10's with music can just absolutely punish the house.
post #9681 of 10012
I believe in and design my setups with plenty of headroom.

I only feed my DTS a max of ~1200w, probably more like 1000w.
I don't run a high pass since I am nowhere near its limits on power or excursion and that already gives me 123+ db peaks.
(however, I do have two other subs in the room)

If I were pushing things that hard, I would definitely run a high pass. Clanking = not good.

I also cross mine over at around 50 HZ to avoid the peaks in the DTS design.
post #9682 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

Just jumping in without reading but I have to ask how you guys have your dts eq'd. Do you have a HPF in place? Cause I drive the balls out of mine no mercy style approx 2kw each cab and never have issues. True I need a HPF and going to put one in at 11Hz for those unseen content movies of single digit LF. Last time I even remember an issue was full tilt volume watching "The Grey" plane crash scene. Not a good movie IMO but i heard drivers clank a quick second at the end of that crash scene which probably has very low single digit content in it.

That's with movies, because music doesn't go into the single's if at all..Two dts-10's with music can just absolutely punish the house.

Without looking, I am pretty sure I have mine two set at:

PEQ minus 4.6dB, @ 29Hz, (Q=5 BW=0.2881) BFD=17.3
PEQ minus 8.4dB @ 55Hz, (Q=8.9 BW=0.162) BFD=9.7
PEQ minus 7.5dB @ 84Hz, (Q=2.8 BW=0.5125) BFD=30.8

On my DSP with the HP set @ 12hz. I have heard the knocking of the drivers on certain movies and it is an unnerving sound to say the least. Right now I am sending 2500w to each cabinet, and I run mine a little hot. I am choosing to do the upgrade to give more headroom, and I will get 10 more dbls @ 31 hz for a simple driver swap.
post #9683 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Accurately measuring low freq response that low is often not a trivial task. First there is the actual microphone response-not many mics measure accurately that low.

Then there is the response of the measurement system electronics. It could be rolling off the low freq levels.

So just as a word of warning-the levels may actually be HIGHER than what is measured that low..

And of course you start to have issues with some of the electronics in the system. Many amps start rolling off that low-as do processors.

So trying to get really low is a bit more involved than just the loudspeakers used.

I know, my amp rolls off at 2hz, my mic falls off the cliff at 5 hz. I have a calibrated mic and sound card. I was just stating how low the DTS-10 really goes in room and why it felt like my current sealed system with 12 drivers. Of course I have more output with 12 drivers.
post #9684 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocDoc View Post

Without looking, I am pretty sure I have mine two set at:

PEQ minus 4.6dB, @ 29Hz, (Q=5 BW=0.2881) BFD=17.3
PEQ minus 8.4dB @ 55Hz, (Q=8.9 BW=0.162) BFD=9.7
PEQ minus 7.5dB @ 84Hz, (Q=2.8 BW=0.5125) BFD=30.8

On my DSP with the HP set @ 12hz. I have heard the knocking of the drivers on certain movies and it is an unnerving sound to say the least. Right now I am sending 2500w to each cabinet, and I run mine a little hot. I am choosing to do the upgrade to give more headroom, and I will get 10 more dbls @ 31 hz for a simple driver swap.

Sounds reasonable PEQ. I have to just toss this out there also but signal gain structure being hot or pre amp clipping can cause it also. Lastly I know the driver cutout on the inverse polarity driver is suppose to be deep enough, but I've doubled the gaskets on that driver for peace of mind. I lightly coated the extra gasket with 3M spray adhesive and sandwiched it to the face gasket.

Just a thought if you guys are sure on the setup before leaving something on the table and changing anything else.
post #9685 of 10012
Good idea on the extra gasket. I think the earlier kits did not have enough clearance.
Edited by jpmst3 - 2/12/13 at 8:09am
post #9686 of 10012
Yeah the first ones didn't have the notched divider and had issues. I still like a little more insurance.

So CrocDoc .....before it sinks in to others.....how much for your spare Danley drivers rolleyes.gif ?
post #9687 of 10012
It sounds like there are a few of you guys that are pushing your drivers to the limits.

I would definitely opt for the LMS conversion in those cases.

You guys must have some seriously large rooms/houses.
My theater room is open to the whole 2500sq ft house and I can get insanely high SPLs and some you guys have multiple DTSs!
post #9688 of 10012
I am also going to upgrade my drivers on my 3 DTS 10'S. mine have little use. Croc how many dts 10 do you have ?
post #9689 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I am also going to upgrade my drivers on my 3 DTS 10'S. mine have little use. Croc how many dts 10 do you have ?

Good move, the upgrade should give you 6-9 more db of usable output contingent upon placement.
It's little hard on the wallet, but I am guessing it will be well worth it since shredded drivers are not cheap to replace either.
Plus, at those levels THD will be higher which should be reduced slightly with the LMS conversion.
post #9690 of 10012
You will gain 3 dBs more. One LMSR DTS-10 has a 3 dB advantage over one DTS-10. So 3 subs would stil be 3 dBs over the 3 DTS-10's. You get less THD within the passband.
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