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Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" DIY kit - Page 324

post #9691 of 10012
Croc and Kutlow,
I don't respond to most pm's or direct questions anymore. I simply don't have time to keep up with them all and I will often go for days without even checking on any forums. Nothing personal.

Briefly...
You lose sensitivity with the LMSR drivers but gain around 4dB maximum displacement limited output in the deep bass. Deep bass distortion at similar playback levels is also lowered but the response shape with the different drivers is also a little more jagged. You must fashion the adapter ring for the corner driver to clear the motor. You also have to cut out the bracing under the inverted driver to clear the extra excursion. Dremel tool with a sanding wheel takes a while but works. The drivers loaded into the DTS-10 cab run into excursion problems near 20Hz and below 12Hz first. I found that if you manage to overdrive the DTS-10 it is usually 20Hz content not <12Hz which is rare. The DTS-10 stock is a really powerful sub already especially in multiples. Unless you are running into issues with bottoming the drivers with 20Hz material occasionally...IOW you are out of headroom...I would not bother with switching the drivers. If you are hitting the limits and want more without another huge enclosure in the room then it is an option.

Kutlow if you wire the drivers as a 2ohm nominal load you will have more than enough power for one cab from a 9200 channel.

Have fun.
post #9692 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Croc and Kutlow,
I don't respond to most pm's or direct questions anymore. I simply don't have time to keep up with them all and I will often go for days without even checking on any forums. Nothing personal.

Briefly...
You lose sensitivity with the LMSR drivers but gain around 4dB maximum displacement limited output in the deep bass. Deep bass distortion at similar playback levels is also lowered but the response shape with the different drivers is also a little more jagged. You must fashion the adapter ring for the corner driver to clear the motor. You also have to cut out the bracing under the inverted driver to clear the extra excursion. Dremel tool with a sanding wheel takes a while but works. The drivers loaded into the DTS-10 cab run into excursion problems near 20Hz and below 12Hz first. I found that if you manage to overdrive the DTS-10 it is usually 20Hz content not <12Hz which is rare. The DTS-10 stock is a really powerful sub already especially in multiples. Unless you are running into issues with bottoming the drivers with 20Hz material occasionally...IOW you are out of headroom...I would not bother with switching the drivers. If you are hitting the limits and want more without another huge enclosure in the room then it is an option.

Kutlow if you wire the drivers as a 2ohm nominal load you will have more than enough power for one cab from a 9200 channel.

Have fun.

Thanks Josh for chiming in. I know you are extremely busy as you have become very popular around the subwoofer forums, and I appreciate you taking the time to answer our questions. When you and I spoke a year ago, we determined that the LMS upgrade was for me since I was running out of headroom around the 20hz range and hearing noises from the drivers. I have been planning for this for a year, and have everything I need including the extra amp. I agree 100% with your statements, this upgrade is not for everyone, only those who have pushed the current configuration to the limits and need more headroom. The extra 10 dbl’s at 31 hz doesn’t hurt either….
post #9693 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I am also going to upgrade my drivers on my 3 DTS 10'S. mine have little use. Croc how many dts 10 do you have ?

I have 2.
post #9694 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

Yeah the first ones didn't have the notched divider and had issues. I still like a little more insurance.

So CrocDoc .....before it sinks in to others.....how much for your spare Danley drivers rolleyes.gif ?

I don't want to speak for them now....I might go back to stock and sell the LMS's if the results are not what I am hoping for.... I will keep you guys posted....
post #9695 of 10012
waiting for your results. Im thinking that increase of 10 db would be nice.
post #9696 of 10012
It won't be 10 dBs, more like 4 dBs.
post #9697 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It won't be 10 dBs, more like 4 dBs.

Not with 3 cabs upgraded....

I assumed he was doing all three.
Edited by jpmst3 - 2/12/13 at 9:02pm
post #9698 of 10012
Mk is correct it is more like 4.

Also remember that cea2010 tests are not necessarily maximum output all the time. It is stopped many times in the deep bass because of distortion harmonics reaching a prescribed threshold. There could be nothing left in the tank or there could be 12dB. The dts10 has quite a bit of headroom left at 31.5hz over what is shown by that test.
post #9699 of 10012
I think what I really need is someone to run REW on my 3 dts-10 and apply the filters and then bump up in certain areas. I just do not have anyone who lives near Montgomery Al who knows how to run rew. So I am screwed.
post #9700 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Mk is correct it is more like 4.

Also remember that cea2010 tests are not necessarily maximum output all the time. It is stopped many times in the deep bass because of distortion harmonics reaching a prescribed threshold. There could be nothing left in the tank or there could be 12dB. The dts10 has quite a bit of headroom left at 31.5hz over what is shown by that test.

Wait, what!?!?!?
You mean $2600 and hours of labor modifying 3 cabinets for 4db?!?!?


I stand corrected then.
Ouch, 4 db, that is tough.
Edited by jpmst3 - 2/13/13 at 5:31am
post #9701 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I think what I really need is someone to run REW on my 3 dts-10 and apply the filters and then bump up in certain areas. I just do not have anyone who lives near Montgomery Al who knows how to run rew. So I am screwed.

What is stopping you from running it?
post #9702 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Mk is correct it is more like 4.

Also remember that cea2010 tests are not necessarily maximum output all the time. It is stopped many times in the deep bass because of distortion harmonics reaching a prescribed threshold. There could be nothing left in the tank or there could be 12dB. The dts10 has quite a bit of headroom left at 31.5hz over what is shown by that test.

Even if it is only a 2-3 dbl net gain, it is a worthwhile upgrade to me for the extra headroom. If I get 4+, that's icing on the cake.
post #9703 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Wait, what!?!?!?
You mean $2600 and hours of labor modifying 3 cabinets for 4db?!?!?


I stand corrected then.
Ouch, 4 db, that is tough.

It is more like $2040 for 6 drivers or $680 for 2, and maybe 30 min of work per cabinet. When I built my cabinets, I removed extra material from the brace of the down firing driver just for extra insurance…. The spacing ring is a cinch if you have a router and a circle jig. I think I paid $40 for my jig from Parts Express. 4 dbl’s is like adding another cabinet without the extra room and can be obtained by just modifying 1 cabinet for some, or 2 (me) or 3 (kutlow).

I am not trying to use Ricci’s words against him, but last year he said (to me), “The DTS-10 is a potent and capable sub in stock form, and doing the LMS upgrade makes it “ridiculous.”…. That was enough for me to make up my mind.
post #9704 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

What is stopping you from running it?

I do not know how. I have a Marantz AV7005 Pre Amp

Croc Ill wait to see what you say about your upgrade.
post #9705 of 10012
The one thing I do not understand is this. You take Danley for instance. If you are trying to take over the market and build the best speakers out there why dont you use the BEST drivers and components along with The Danley Designs? So what if it costs a few hundred more per cabinet.
post #9706 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I do not know how. I have a Marantz AV7005 Pre Amp

Croc Ill wait to see what you say about your upgrade.

Sounds good. What I plan on doing is modifying one and then I can compare it to the other.
post #9707 of 10012
If I do the switch it would be all three cabinets. 3 -4 db more in scenes is alot
post #9708 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

The one thing I do not understand is this. You take Danley for instance. If you are trying to take over the market and build the best speakers out there why dont you use the BEST drivers and components along with The Danley Designs? So what if it costs a few hundred more per cabinet.

I will let Ivan, answer….but I believe the boxes were designed around the drivers, and they went with a cheaper driver (cost wise) to keep the costs down. The LMS driver is made with better materials like the surround for instance is rolled rubber, not foam….
post #9709 of 10012
Before I break out the jump to conclusions mat i'll point out again EQ....eq...... eeequuuu biggrin.gif The data-bass testing are numbers WITHOUT EQ. Leave's tons on the table.

Maybe take some $ you'd spend buying more drivers and pay someone from the forum to have a visit. Just tossing that out there.
post #9710 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocDoc View Post

I will let Ivan, answer….but I believe the boxes were designed around the drivers, and they went with a cheaper driver (cost wise) to keep the costs down. The LMS driver is made with better materials like the surround for instance is rolled rubber, not foam….

Rolled rubber....= less sensitivity

And i'd be leery on the aluminum winding's over copper. Not saying the LMS-R isn't a capable driver. The lab is more compared to the epic12, but we're not talking about a standard lab12 either.
post #9711 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

Rolled rubber....= less sensitivity

And i'd be leery on the aluminum winding's over copper. Not saying the LMS-R isn't a capable driver. The lab is more compared to the epic12, but we're not talking about a standard lab12 either.

True… There is a cost to pay for better materials, and the better materials weigh more which is why they are not as sensitive as the stock drivers. They are similar to the Lab 12’s, but designed to Danley’s specs like the 3” VC, and higher motor force for instance.
post #9712 of 10012
Don't forget that Danley has to think about other considerations like how reliable the driver vendor is...They need components that will still be available in a few years. Look at how many smaller brands have come and gone or completely changed their lineup in the last 4 years or so.

About the 3-4dB thing. It may not seem like much but it gets increasingly more difficult to add headroom from the same enclosure ...Law of diminishing returns. Imagine it as being able to increase your master volume another 3 or 4 clicks without issue and how much difference in apparent volume that can be in your usual listening.
post #9713 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Don't forget that Danley has to think about other considerations like how reliable the driver vendor is...They need components that will still be available in a few years. Look at how many smaller brands have come and gone or completely changed their lineup in the last 4 years or so.

About the 3-4dB thing. It may not seem like much but it gets increasingly more difficult to add headroom from the same enclosure ...Law of diminishing returns. Imagine it as being able to increase your master volume another 3 or 4 clicks without issue and how much difference in apparent volume that can be in your usual listening.

Well said. The main reason I am doing it is because I have heard distress noises coming from the drivers at demo levels. “Most” people don’t listen to it that loud so the upgrade would be a waste of money.
post #9714 of 10012
3-4 dBs is huge when you need it. At lower volumes it is hardly noticed but at reference or when a sub is slightly struggling that 4 dB bump it most welcomed and noticed. Just remember, that is like going from 1000 watts to 2000 watts. Most people would consider that a big upgrade.
post #9715 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

3-4 dBs is huge when you need it. At lower volumes it is hardly noticed but at reference or when a sub is slightly struggling that 4 dB bump it most welcomed and noticed. Just remember, that is like going from 1000 watts to 2000 watts. Most people would consider that a big upgrade.

No doubt about it. It is a nice upgrade and definitely worth if you are hearing bad noises emanating from your factory drivers. Also, keeping the same enclosure is a bonus too.
However, if I was doing 3 cabinets at $900 per cab I would have some reservations.


But, what the hell? It's only money right!!?!?
post #9716 of 10012
Anyone traveling towards Montgomery Alabama anytime soon? I would love a Rew ran. $$$
post #9717 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I do not know how. I have a Marantz AV7005 Pre Amp

Croc Ill wait to see what you say about your upgrade.

Well, why don't you pick up a mic and download REW and give it a try?
It is really a pretty straightforward process after the initial setup.

The software is really cool and shows you a lot about what is happening in your room.
Edited by jpmst3 - 2/13/13 at 7:55am
post #9718 of 10012
So let me get this straight. If I were to swap drivers in all 3 of my dts 10s I would only gain 3 db?
post #9719 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

So let me get this straight. If I were to swap drivers in all 3 of my dts 10s I would only gain 3 db?

That's what they are saying. I don't get it but I don't know much about the swap other than the apparent testing data.
post #9720 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

So let me get this straight. If I were to swap drivers in all 3 of my dts 10s I would only gain 3 db?

Maybe 4 dBs but the THD lowers even more as well. Only needed if you are running at limits or you are hearing THD.
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