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Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" DIY kit - Page 325

post #9721 of 9954
2/13/13 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

So let me get this straight. If I were to swap drivers in all 3 of my dts 10s I would only gain 3 db?

You can't just add "db's" together. If you could then if you had 2 cabinets that each one could do 130dB-then you would be able to produce 260dB. NOT QUITE!

I have no opinion about the LMS-so don't ask.

But let's say for argument that you can get a 4dB increase. Then by replacing ALL of the drivers in the same number of cabinets-you would net a 4dB increase-TOTAL.

Since each cabinet would have a "realative" difference of 4dB-then ALL the cabinets would have the same relative difference-4dB.

As a side-there are A LOT of factors that go into driver choice-cabinet shape/size etc. Everything is a matter of compromise. For example we have had to currently (hopefully not forever) discontinue our TH50-because the driver manufacturer would no longer make the driver. It was expensive-large and heavy. It was discontinued because not enough people were buying them.

Like- for example-I wonder how many people would not have bought the DTS10 kits if they were twice as expensive? (I don't know the relative difference in price of the drivers-just throwing a number out there).

For some people it is all about ultimate performance-for others it is about economy of realistic performance. And for others it is all about cheap.

If you want the "ultimate" then just buy a Danley Matterhorn and back it up to your house. OH-NOW money and size start to be an issue???????

What is expensive for some people is not expensive for others. What is just OK performance for some people is spectacular for others-it just depends.

See there ARE limitations
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post #9722 of 9954
2/13/13 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

You can't just add "db's" together. If you could then if you had 2 cabinets that each one could do 130dB-then you would be able to produce 260dB. NOT QUITE!

I have no opinion about the LMS-so don't ask.

But let's say for argument that you can get a 4dB increase. Then by replacing ALL of the drivers in the same number of cabinets-you would net a 4dB increase-TOTAL.

Since each cabinet would have a "realative" difference of 4dB-then ALL the cabinets would have the same relative difference-4dB.

As a side-there are A LOT of factors that go into driver choice-cabinet shape/size etc. Everything is a matter of compromise. For example we have had to currently (hopefully not forever) discontinue our TH50-because the driver manufacturer would no longer make the driver. It was expensive-large and heavy. It was discontinued because not enough people were buying them.

Like- for example-I wonder how many people would not have bought the DTS10 kits if they were twice as expensive? (I don't know the relative difference in price of the drivers-just throwing a number out there).

For some people it is all about ultimate performance-for others it is about economy of realistic performance. And for others it is all about cheap.

If you want the "ultimate" then just buy a Danley Matterhorn and back it up to your house. OH-NOW money and size start to be an issue???????

What is expensive for some people is not expensive for others. What is just OK performance for some people is spectacular for others-it just depends.

See there ARE limitations

I got my #’s for my chart, by the 6 dbl rule. When two subs of the same type and same power are co-located you get a 6 dbl increase.

2 subs are 6 dbl more than 1.
4 subs are 12 dbl more than 1.
8 subs are 18 dbl more than 1.

If sub “A” is rated at 101 dbl’s @ 30 Hz, and sub “B” is rated @ 119 dbl’s @ 30 Hz, then it would take (8) of sub “A” to equal the same output of sub “B” @ 30 Hz.

If this is not correct, please help me understand it better.
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post #9723 of 9954
2/13/13 at 10:48am
Ricci measured the DTS-10 ans the LMS DTS-10 and the average was 4 dBs more. So say the DTS-10 can produce 120 dBs the LMS DTS can produce 124 dBs. Dual DTS-10's produce 126 dBs and dual LMS DTS10's produce 130 dBs. so duals vs duals is still 4 dBs different. Quads of each produce DTS10 132 dBs, LMS DTS10's would be 136 dBs, so 4 of each would still be 4 dBs different.
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post #9724 of 9954
2/13/13 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Ricci measured the DTS-10 ans the LMS DTS-10 and the average was 4 dBs more. So say the DTS-10 can produce 120 dBs the LMS DTS can produce 124 dBs. Dual DTS-10's produce 126 dBs and dual LMS DTS10's produce 130 dBs. so duals vs duals is still 4 dBs different. Quads of each produce DTS10 132 dBs, LMS DTS10's would be 136 dBs, so 4 of each would still be 4 dBs different.

And that is how I made my chart. I took the #’s from DATA-BASS and only added 6 dbl’s for two LMS or two DTS-10 and so forth. I understand that a 4 dbl increase only nets a 4 dbl increase whether you have 2 or 3 DTS’s. So my chart is correct then, right? I only figured it for multiple subs….
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post #9725 of 9954
2/13/13 at 11:12am
croc doc do the upgrade on one cabinet like you said and then report back. My thinking also if for any reason I blow a driver then I would make the swap of the 2 in that sub.

If anyone needs nice factory drivers then I have 6 that I would sell. Mine are pretty much new like since I only have less than 150 hours on my theater.

Now I need REW.
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post #9726 of 9954
2/13/13 at 11:17am
I think we are all familiar with the concept of doubling drivers and power, 3db, 6db, etc.

I think the lack of understanding is how the driver swap that can net 3-4 db of max gain headroom in one DTS only nets ~4 db when it done in three cabinets.
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post #9727 of 9954
2/13/13 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

I think we are all familiar with the concept of doubling drivers and power, 3db, 6db, etc.

I think the lack of understanding is how the driver swap that can net 3-4 db of max gain headroom in one DTS only nets ~4 db when it done in three cabinets.

Agreed. I think that is what is hard to grasp here. I just was not sure where the adding db’s together was coming from since that is clearly not what I was doing, or trying to show in my chart. Sorry if I got a little defensive, I just don’t want to be accused of misleading someone.
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post #9728 of 9954
2/13/13 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Ricci measured the DTS-10 ans the LMS DTS-10 and the average was 4 dBs more. So say the DTS-10 can produce 120 dBs the LMS DTS can produce 124 dBs. Dual DTS-10's produce 126 dBs and dual LMS DTS10's produce 130 dBs. so duals vs duals is still 4 dBs different. Quads of each produce DTS10 132 dBs, LMS DTS10's would be 136 dBs, so 4 of each would still be 4 dBs different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

I think we are all familiar with the concept of doubling drivers and power, 3db, 6db, etc.

I think the lack of understanding is how the driver swap that can net 3-4 db of max gain headroom in one DTS only nets ~4 db when it done in three cabinets.

MK just explained it above...

You gain a theoretical 6dB max from a colocated identical cabinet and amount of power.

Cab 1 = 110dB
Cab 2 = 113dB

You add an identical cab of each type now what happens?
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post #9729 of 9954
2/13/13 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

croc doc do the upgrade on one cabinet like you said and then report back. My thinking also if for any reason I blow a driver then I would make the swap of the 2 in that sub.

If anyone needs nice factory drivers then I have 6 that I would sell. Mine are pretty much new like since I only have less than 150 hours on my theater.

Now I need REW.

I know you are intimidated by REW (as was I), because of all the additional equipment I needed to buy (sound card, mics, cables, ect.). I purchased the OmniMic from Parts-Express a few years ago, and it has everything you need in one box and is very easy to use. It is very similar to REW and does a lot of the same charts/ graphs. Check it out; it even comes with a mic stand.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-792
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post #9730 of 9954
2/13/13 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

For example we have had to currently (hopefully not forever) discontinue our TH50-because the driver manufacturer would no longer make the driver. It was expensive-large and heavy. It was discontinued because not enough people were buying them.
--

I picked one of those drivers up used last year. I am really impressed with it. It was a very nice piece and I just don't think many new how good it was due to the market it was in. Of course it is expensive and weighs like 65 lbs so I don't know how many more would have sold... but it was really a beast in the TH50.
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post #9731 of 9954
2/13/13 at 1:09pm
Thread Starter 
Kutlow, Did you ever get rew and a mic?

I will just go ahead and buy a microphone and from there I would just play around with some.
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post #9732 of 9954
2/13/13 at 1:11pm
Isn't that miniDSP USB mic supposed to work directly with a laptop and REW?
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post #9733 of 9954
2/13/13 at 1:34pm
Kutlow, did you ever just do the simple starting point of using danleys recommended filters. That's all I've done and it was a really significant improvement. No, not perfectly tuned to my room, but good enough that I don't feel in a hurry.

I don't understand the desire for more headroom by all of you. Do you guys really watch movies peaking over 120db? I can't. Even my seasoned theater buddies cry uncle at that point during demos. Or, are y'all just on a chase for bragging rights?
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post #9734 of 9954
2/13/13 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocDoc View Post

The spacing ring is a cinch if you have a router and a circle jig.

Or just a jigsaw if you don't care about a part you don't see not being perfect.

Also maybe start with a 12" MDF or ply round from Home Depot if that's big enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

Rolled rubber....= less sensitivity

Insignificant effect from that; it's mostly from high Mms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Anyone traveling towards Montgomery Alabama anytime soon? I would love a Rew ran. $$$

Or just get OmniuMic; you'll be seeing freq resp in real time within 10-15 minutes of opening the box.
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post #9735 of 9954
2/13/13 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Kutlow, Did you ever get rew and a mic?

I will just go ahead and buy a microphone and from there I would just play around with some.

Brandon I never did. NO HABLA REW.
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post #9736 of 9954
2/13/13 at 2:54pm
You don't need REW to put those filters in.
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post #9737 of 9954
2/13/13 at 2:59pm
How about http://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1 for $99 and REW is free.
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post #9738 of 9954
2/13/13 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

I don't understand the desire for more headroom by all of you. Do you guys really watch movies peaking over 120db? I can't. Even my seasoned theater buddies cry uncle at that point during demos. Or, are y'all just on a chase for bragging rights?

Tony,
It has nothing to do with bragging rights for me. Like I said, I have heard noises coming from the drivers on certain movies during demos. No, I don’t watch movies at demo levels, but when someone comes to my house and wants to hear the system, the last thing I want to happen is hear a driver hitting its limits.
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post #9739 of 9954
2/13/13 at 3:21pm
I chose the wrong wording...didn't want to put anyone on the defensive. smile.gif

Are you hearing these noises at reference level? I've never heard the first complaint from mine on up to 124db at the LP.
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post #9740 of 9954
2/13/13 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

I chose the wrong wording...didn't want to put anyone on the defensive. smile.gif

Are you hearing these noises at reference level? I've never heard the first complaint from mine on up to 124db at the LP.

Tony, sorry if that came off a little defensive. I really wasn’t trying to come off rude, I just feel like I have been justifying my upgrade to the LMS-R’s ever since I brought it up. Ricci told me a year ago that it was certainly a worthwhile upgrade, and I give him a lot of credibility. Maybe, he told me this because he wanted me to buy his LMS-R’s, who knows…. It was a few years ago that he did the testing, and he is going off of memory, and he has been very busy with other sub projects. When I try to remember some of my old subs, I have a hard time remembering what they really sounded like.

I have hit 130 dbl's at the LP on demos. I posted graphs a year ago, and you told me I was nuts....rolleyes.gifsmile.gif
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post #9741 of 9954
2/13/13 at 4:06pm
I think you guys are nuts, but no need to justify to me! I also have a terrible memory and don't remember our conversation last year about it. Am I the crazy coot that keeps repeating himself and doesn't know it? tongue.gif
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post #9742 of 9954
2/13/13 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

Am I the crazy coot that keeps repeating himself and doesn't know it? tongue.gif
Well,I really didn't want to say anything. But now that you mention it...........tongue.gif
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post #9743 of 9954
2/13/13 at 5:12pm
I opened myself up to that. Point taken.
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post #9744 of 9954
2/13/13 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post


MK just explained it above...

You gain a theoretical 6dB max from a colocated identical cabinet and amount of power.

Cab 1 = 110dB
Cab 2 = 113dB

You add an identical cab of each type now what happens?
Let's look at it another way. I'm just making up a starting point as a reference

Cab Ax1 100dB
x2 106dB
x4 112dB

Now let's say cab is 4dB louder
Cab Bx1 104dB
x2 110dB
x4 116dB

So you end up STILL 4dB louder.
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post #9745 of 9954
2/13/13 at 7:25pm
Okay, with that said my chart IS correct then.


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post #9746 of 9954
2/13/13 at 7:36pm
With one sub having 4dB increased capacity, this is how it turns out:

Source SPL ref (dB) N Sum N (dB)
Sub 1 104.00 1.00 104.00
Sub 2 100.00 2.00 106.02
Sum SPL (dB) 111.09

With the 3 original equal:

Source SPL ref (dB) N Sum N (dB)
Sub 3 100.00 3.00 109.54
Sum SPL (dB) 109.54

So, the 4 dB increase in one cabinet will give you a total of 1.46 dB increase overall, with 1 modified and 2 original.

Since this can actually be a useful exercise when wondering how many subs you need, and what changes in number and capacity will give in actual spl, I have attached this spreadsheet.

dunder.xls 9k .xls file
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post #9747 of 9954
2/13/13 at 7:52pm
I had a longer post typed but our net is horrible in the desert lol.

Maybe you guys should just sell your dts-10s (MK? wink.gif) and pony up for 2 TH-221s. I understand the charts and graph as a baseline for any numbers to have a start point but the testing was done without eq, just a HPF. True it's a point to start, but doesn't show the real full picture.
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post #9748 of 9954
2/14/13 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocDoc View Post

Okay, with that said my chart IS correct then.



The increase from 16-40 looks huge. I think that will do the trick.
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post #9749 of 9954
2/15/13 at 5:36am
Just wanted to add and toss this out there that your referring to the LMSR as an uber highest quality when it's really another off the shelf driver. If your going to look outside the box and drop coin why not just contact a custom driver house in the USA and have something special made for the task. That's just me speaking out loud and something I'd consider.

BTW I want at least one or maybe two stock danley drivers from you guys so post up or PM me when ready to sell cool.gif.
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post #9750 of 9954
2/15/13 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

Just wanted to add and toss this out there that your referring to the LMSR as an uber highest quality when it's really another off the shelf driver. If your going to look outside the box and drop coin why not just contact a custom driver house in the USA and have something special made for the task. That's just me speaking out loud and something I'd consider.

Not a bad idea really, that is if the costs are reasonable. Custom drivers can get mighty pricey, especially with this level of excursion and power handling.
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