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Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" DIY kit - Page 329

post #9841 of 10012
I am going to take the plunge. Anyone looking for 6 stock drivers I have them.
post #9842 of 10012
I need some help. I have a Crest Pro 9200 amp which I use to drive 2 DTS-10'S with. One channel going to each cabinet which is 2200 watts at 4 ohms. I am planning on doing the LMSR Driver upgrade. Would this be enough power for headroom? That would be basically 1100 watts at 4 ohms to each LMSR. My amp specs are here:

•8 Ohm Stereo - 1300 W
•4 Ohm Stereo - 2200 W
•2 Ohm Stereo - 3250 W
•4 Ohm Bridged - 6500 W

I have the amp in parallel mode with my current drivers from Danley. Would I be better to put the switch in stereo mode and send it 3250W at 2 Ohm stereo? On the specs of the LMSR it says the Impedance is

2+2 ohms Here is the link:





http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=293-658

Should I drop these drivers and hook them up just how I have the stock ones or should I change it? Danley's instructions you send the positive speaker wire to the negative driver terminal on driver 1 and jumpered to the positive on driver 2. The negative speaker wire to the positive on driver number 1 Then jumpered over to the negative on speaker 2.
post #9843 of 10012
Just know that the 9200 amp has been tested to put out more than 3250 at 2ohm. Closer to 4000
post #9844 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by carboranadum View Post

OK, I finally got the sub installed behind my screen wall, ran wiring to it. I'm not confident in the wiring here, so I'm looking for some help. In the chain, I am connecting everything as follows:

Denon AVR3311-CI - RCA Sub out to
Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro Input 1 (via RCA to XLR cable) & Output 1 (XLR) to Behringer EuroPower 4000 Amp Input 1 (via XLR cable).

Behringer amp is set up in stereo bridge mode.

The Left channel output is sent to the sub driver 1 (via speaker connection)
The right channel output is sent to the sub driver 2 (via speaker connection)

When I power the stack up and get it working, the sound is present, but not too powerful. I think that one of the drivers is not working, because it is not getting any power from the amp. I don't think that I have it wired or configured properly.

Is this connection correct, and if not, what do I need to change?
You have to run one of the drivers in INVERTED polarity-meaning that the "hot" wire is hooked to the neg terminal and vice versa.

This will make both cones move in the SAME direction-but one cone will be moving out and the other will be moving in.

If they are both wired in polarity-then they will pretty much cancel each other out-and produce very little sound.
post #9845 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I need some help. I have a Crest Pro 9200 amp which I use to drive 2 DTS-10'S with. One channel going to each cabinet which is 2200 watts at 4 ohms. I am planning on doing the LMSR Driver upgrade. Would this be enough power for headroom? That would be basically 1100 watts at 4 ohms to each LMSR. My amp specs are here:

•8 Ohm Stereo - 1300 W
•4 Ohm Stereo - 2200 W
•2 Ohm Stereo - 3250 W
•4 Ohm Bridged - 6500 W

I have the amp in parallel mode with my current drivers from Danley. Would I be better to put the switch in stereo mode and send it 3250W at 2 Ohm stereo? On the specs of the LMSR it says the Impedance is

2+2 ohms Here is the link:





http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=293-658

Should I drop these drivers and hook them up just how I have the stock ones or should I change it? Danley's instructions you send the positive speaker wire to the negative driver terminal on driver 1 and jumpered to the positive on driver 2. The negative speaker wire to the positive on driver number 1 Then jumpered over to the negative on speaker 2.
Either way you run it-the power is the same. The only thing that changes (between those 2 positions) is how the input jacks are wired.
post #9846 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Either way you run it-the power is the same. The only thing that changes (between those 2 positions) is how the input jacks are wired.



so your saying if I wire it like this it wouldnt send 3250 w at 2 ohm to each cabinet? wouldnt this make the cabinet a 2 ohm load?



LMSR_Hook_Up 1.pdf 1143k .pdf file
post #9847 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Just know that the 9200 amp has been tested to put out more than 3250 at 2ohm. Closer to 4000

what did it test at 4 OHMS?
post #9848 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

so your saying if I wire it like this it wouldnt send 3250 w at 2 ohm to each cabinet? wouldnt this make the cabinet a 2 ohm load?



LMSR_Hook_Up 1.pdf 1143k .pdf file
The amplifier power is what it is-it does nto matter how you wire up the input.

If you send a different signal to each input jack or the same-the amp power/capability is still the same.

The impedance of the cabinet is what it is=it does not matter what amp you hook it up to.

Now how well an amp can drive a particular load-THAT is a totally different question.

And just to make it more complicated-the "wattage capability" of an amp HAS a lot of variables associated with it-it is not a simple answer.

Such as: at what freq-what distortion level-single or dual channel driven-wall voltage/current capability-how long can it deliver this power (some amps can only deliver rated power for 1 cycle at 20Hz-which is worthless if you ask me-especially for home theater usage) and so forth.
post #9849 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

so your saying if I wire it like this it wouldnt send 3250 w at 2 ohm to each cabinet? wouldnt this make the cabinet a 2 ohm load?



LMSR_Hook_Up 1.pdf 1143k .pdf file
You wiring is correct-but your impedance calculations are not.

They WOULD be correct if you had them in a normal front loaded cabinet. But since they are in a horn-the impedance is likely (I say this because different drivers react differently in a horn-no way to know without actual measurement of IMPEDANCE-NOT resistance) to go higher.

So the impedance the amp "sees" will probably be higher than 2 ohms and could be closer to 4-maybe.
post #9850 of 10012
Ivan I know you mentioned that Danley might be coming out with a home theater sub. Is this true and if so can you give some deatails? How about a dual 15 inch TH:D
post #9851 of 10012
I thought the DTS was the HT sub.

Dual 15s would be a huge cabinet...unless you sacrifice extension.
post #9852 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

You wiring is correct-but your impedance calculations are not.

They WOULD be correct if you had them in a normal front loaded cabinet. But since they are in a horn-the impedance is likely (I say this because different drivers react differently in a horn-no way to know without actual measurement of IMPEDANCE-NOT resistance) to go higher.

So the impedance the amp "sees" will probably be higher than 2 ohms and could be closer to 4-maybe.

Ivan,
Can you help explain this to me? I have the LMSR’s wired in Series inside of the DTS-10 enclosure. I figured this to be a (2+2+2+2=) 8 ohm resistance load for the amp, are you suggesting it would be more like a 4 ohm load since it’s in a horn?

Since I am running my amp bridged, if I wire them per this parallel illustration can I expect to get more power out of the amp since the impedance would be closer to 4 ohms? My amp is not rated to run bridged @ 2 ohms, only 4.
post #9853 of 10012
I think the impedance in the horn goes up so your load would be more like 12-16 ohms.

I would wire the coils in series and drivers in parallel for a 2 ohm load which will net higher.

Your amp will probably still run bridged with that load. If not, just switch to stereo.

In my experience, my pro-amps have been very forgiving. I am not sure about the cheaper amps like the EPs.
post #9854 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Ivan I know you mentioned that Danley might be coming out with a home theater sub. Is this true and if so can you give some deatails? How about a dual 15 inch TH:D
It is a very radical idea that Tom is playing around with-along with all the other stuff going on.

It will be MUCH smaller than the DTS10 and probably won't go quite as loud.

I will not say anything else-until we get closer to finishing it.

But let's just say it is not normal by any means.
post #9855 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocDoc View Post

Ivan,
Can you help explain this to me? I have the LMSR’s wired in Series inside of the DTS-10 enclosure. I figured this to be a (2+2+2+2=) 8 ohm resistance load for the amp, are you suggesting it would be more like a 4 ohm load since it’s in a horn?

Since I am running my amp bridged, if I wire them per this parallel illustration can I expect to get more power out of the amp since the impedance would be closer to 4 ohms? My amp is not rated to run bridged @ 2 ohms, only 4.
I was referring to Kutlows drawing that has each driver coils wired in series-but the pair of drivers in parallel. So each driver would be 4 ohms and the pair in parallel would be 4 ohms-maybe.

If you go all in series it would be 8 ohms or higher.

Of course that is also assuming that the REAL impedance is 2 ohms. The ACTUAL impedance could be higher or lower for each coil and 2 ohms is the closest "standard" value.

The only way is to measure one of the coils to find out.
post #9856 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

I think the impedance in the horn goes up so your load would be more like 12-16 ohms.

I would wire the coils in series and drivers in parallel for a 2 ohm load which will net higher.

Your amp will probably still run bridged with that load. If not, just switch to stereo.

In my experience, my pro-amps have been very forgiving. I am not sure about the cheaper amps like the EPs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

I was referring to Kutlows drawing that has each driver coils wired in series-but the pair of drivers in parallel. So each driver would be 4 ohms and the pair in parallel would be 4 ohms-maybe.

If you go all in series it would be 8 ohms or higher.

Of course that is also assuming that the REAL impedance is 2 ohms. The ACTUAL impedance could be higher or lower for each coil and 2 ohms is the closest "standard" value.

The only way is to measure one of the coils to find out.

I have 2 Marathon MA-5050’s (One per DTS). I figured with the way I have the LMSR’s wired in series I had 3600W on tap in bridge mode. If the load is more like 12-16 ohms, the actual power they see would be less. If I wire the coils in series and the drivers in parallel (like my illustration shows) then load is closer to 4 ohms not the 2 ohm load it shows. So, is this what you would do?

I know every speaker is different, but Josh tested the LMSR driver with coils wired in series, and got a 4.15 ohm resistance.
post #9857 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocDoc View Post


I have 2 Marathon MA-5050’s (One per DTS). I figured with the way I have the LMSR’s wired in series I had 3600W on tap in bridge mode. If the load is more like 12-16 ohms, the actual power they see would be less. If I wire the coils in series and the drivers in parallel (like my illustration shows) then load is closer to 4 ohms not the 2 ohm load it shows. So, is this what you would do?

I know every speaker is different, but Josh tested the LMSR driver with coils wired in series, and got a 4.15 ohm resistance.

The resistance is always going to be less than the impedance of a loudspeaker. How much? It depends. I have seen "8 ohm" drivers have a DC resistance of anywhere from 4.5 ohms to 7.2 ohms.

The only way to be sure is to MEASURE-but impedance measurements are not something most people can do (without the proper tools), and they don't sell those at Radio Shack.

But there are some software/hardware solutions out there.
post #9858 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

The resistance is always going to be less than the impedance of a loudspeaker. How much? It depends. I have seen "8 ohm" drivers have a DC resistance of anywhere from 4.5 ohms to 7.2 ohms.

The only way to be sure is to MEASURE-but impedance measurements are not something most people can do (without the proper tools), and they don't sell those at Radio Shack.

But there are some software/hardware solutions out there.

Josh Ricci already measured them in cabinet. Here is a quote from data-bass, “The impedance minimum measured with the drivers wired in series was 10.58ohms at 14.4Hz.”

If you go to this page: Click on the Static Graphs Tab (Scroll half way down)
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=2&mset=34

You will see the impedance charts of the LMSR drivers in the DTS-10 enclosure. My question is; Can I wire the LMSR coils in series and the drivers in parallel (like my illustration shows), and not ruin my amp running it bridged?
Edited by CrocDoc - 3/3/13 at 4:25pm
post #9859 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

It is a very radical idea that Tom is playing around with-along with all the other stuff going on.

It will be MUCH smaller than the DTS10 and probably won't go quite as loud.

I will not say anything else-until we get closer to finishing it.

But let's just say it is not normal by any means.

we need something stronger than a DTS 10 not weaker. What do you think of the DBH218LC for a home theater? I listened to it at your shop and it was amazing. I am going to come and have another listen.
post #9860 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

You wiring is correct-but your impedance calculations are not.

They WOULD be correct if you had them in a normal front loaded cabinet. But since they are in a horn-the impedance is likely (I say this because different drivers react differently in a horn-no way to know without actual measurement of IMPEDANCE-NOT resistance) to go higher.

So the impedance the amp "sees" will probably be higher than 2 ohms and could be closer to 4-maybe.

Ivan my amp is the Crest pro 9200 which is the same as the Danley I think you guys called it a 6.2 or something. How would you wire these LMSR drivers if it were you? Would you do it how I have the drawing or something different? Thanks for your help.
post #9861 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Ivan my amp is the Crest pro 9200 which is the same as the Danley I think you guys called it a 6.2 or something. How would you wire these LMSR drivers if it were you? Would you do it how I have the drawing or something different? Thanks for your help.

You will want to wire them up just like the diagram that I emailed you, and then you posted in this thread. According to Ivan, the load that your amp would see will be more like 4 ohms vs. 2 ohms like I stated in that drawing. Your amp will be safe with that kind of load. The only other option is to wire all the coils in parallel, but that could be dangerous because that would be around 0.5 ohms, and that might overload your amp.
post #9862 of 10012
The minimum impedance with the drivers in parallel will be around 2.5-2.6 ohms. It has been measured. I don't know how happy the amp would be bridged into that if asked for a lot of current. It may be fine or not. If you have one big amp per cab run the drivers in series and bridge into that. If one amp per two cabs run the drivers in parallel in stereo. That is what I would do.
post #9863 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

The minimum impedance with the drivers in parallel will be around 2.5-2.6 ohms. It has been measured. I don't know how happy the amp would be bridged into that if asked for a lot of current. It may be fine or not. If you have one big amp per cab run the drivers in series and bridge into that. If one amp per two cabs run the drivers in parallel in stereo. That is what I would do.

Thanks for chiming in, Josh. I have wired the drivers exactly as you suggested. One amp per cabinet (running bridged), with the coils and drivers all wired in series.

Kutlow is using one amp per 2 cabinets (one per channel) and is going to wire the coils in series, and the drivers in parallel. This is the advice that I gave him per my drawing (PDF) that he posted.

I just wanted to double check; because the last thing I want for anyone of us is a ruined amp.

Kutlow,
You will want to wire it up just like I showed in that drawing. Call me if you have any doubts smile.gif
post #9864 of 10012
BTW Josh,
Thank you for the advice you have given. I am satisfied with the upgrade.
post #9865 of 10012
So you guys are dropping 1800-2000 Rms per driver. I guess with the cabinet allowing the coils to vent vs a sealed box but i'm curious how they last. Any more sweeps or tests?

Had 1kw across a TC epic but later the coil was cooked in about 20min. It was a sealed box though so biggrin.gif
post #9866 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

So you guys are dropping 1800-2000 Rms per driver. I guess with the cabinet allowing the coils to vent vs a sealed box but i'm curious how they last. Any more sweeps or tests?

Had 1kw across a TC epic but later the coil was cooked in about 20min. It was a sealed box though so biggrin.gif

Per TC Sounds the LMSR 12” can handle 1000w RMS, or 4000w program power. My amp “Says” it will run 3600w bridged into an 8 ohm load. Now do the drivers ever “see” this kind of power is the question? If they do, it is for very short periods of time during peaks and not during an entire movie. Let me tell you, these things are power hungry, and my ears run out of tolerance before the drivers do. I have been really busy and will run more graphs and frequency sweeps as soon as my schedule permits.

FWIW, the Epic 12” is rated at 500w RMS for a 2 hour limit. I can see why it would cook on 1kw of power. eek.gif
post #9867 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

The minimum impedance with the drivers in parallel will be around 2.5-2.6 ohms. It has been measured. I don't know how happy the amp would be bridged into that if asked for a lot of current. It may be fine or not. If you have one big amp per cab run the drivers in series and bridge into that. If one amp per two cabs run the drivers in parallel in stereo. That is what I would do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

The minimum impedance with the drivers in parallel will be around 2.5-2.6 ohms. It has been measured. I don't know how happy the amp would be bridged into that if asked for a lot of current. It may be fine or not. If you have one big amp per cab run the drivers in series and bridge into that. If one amp per two cabs run the drivers in parallel in stereo. That is what I would do.

Ricci so you would wire it just like the diagram that I posted on post number 9846?
post #9868 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Ivan my amp is the Crest pro 9200 which is the same as the Danley I think you guys called it a 6.2 or something. How would you wire these LMSR drivers if it were you? Would you do it how I have the drawing or something different? Thanks for your help.
I would wire each driver coils in series-and then the 2 drivers in parallel-but out of polarity-as you have drawn.

Then I would bridge the amp. BE SURE TO DO IT PROPERLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It may or may not be fine-depending on the actual impedance-and the range of the low spots in the impedance curve.

At worse case the amp will go into protection and shut down. It will come back when the amp is turned off and back on.

I would try this first and see what you have.

It is presents a problem-then I would parallel the inputs and drive each woofer off a side of the amp (of course with one of them out of polarity)
post #9869 of 10012
Kutlow-I was assuming you had one amp per cabinet-but now I see it may be 1 amp per 2 cabinets.

If that is the case-then wire as you drew-and run one channel per cabinet.
post #9870 of 10012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Kutlow-I was assuming you had one amp per cabinet-but now I see it may be 1 amp per 2 cabinets.

If that is the case-then wire as you drew-and run one channel per cabinet.

Yes Ivan I am using one side of the amp to do a DTS10. I have 2 of these amps and 3 dts 10's and using the extra channel for my sh 69 center. So Ill hook it up as Croc drew it up.
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