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A hypothetical question for the DIY guys

post #1 of 99
Thread Starter 
Good morning ... I have a question about expectations in the subwoofer world. What does everyone think the following subwoofer would cost to:

A. Build as a DIY project (including finishing in a basic black satin or "truck bedliner" finish)?

B. Buy from a commercial Source?

Performance Parameters ...

1. It's to be a sealed design and one driver. No additional LT circuit nor amplification required - think totally finished product.
2. It will deliver 107 dB at 20 Hz, 1 meter outdoors and average 115 dB from 20 to 63 Hz.
3. Group Delay below 10 MS to below 10 Hz.
4. At 10 Hz, it would have the natural roll off one expects in a sealed enclosure of 12 dB (max output still at 95 dB at 10 Hz).
post #2 of 99
You don't mention a size, but my best guess would be

A) $1000 (Maelstrom 18, 2000w)

B) ? $3-5000 ?


What F3 are we talking about?
Group delay numbers... really, who cares? Never been proven to be audible at those frequencies.
Being sealed, wouldn't the 12db/octave rolloff start waay ealier than 10hz?
post #3 of 99
Does someone have Ilkka chart link showing performance of many popular subs?

I want to know what dBs many subs have at 20Hz?

107 dB at 20 Hz seems low.

Quote:


Performance Parameters ...

1. It's to be a sealed design and one driver. No additional LT circuit nor amplification required - think totally finished product.
2. It will deliver 107 dB at 20 Hz, 1 meter outdoors and average 115 dB from 20 to 63 Hz.
3. Group Delay below 10 MS to below 10 Hz.
4. At 10 Hz, it would have the natural roll off one expects in a sealed enclosure of 12 dB (max output still at 95 dB at 10 Hz).

This sounds similar to the HSU ULS-15 specs so comercially the cost is $1200?

I know its not the HSU product and I suspect its your new subs @ Tweak City Audio
post #4 of 99
I agree with the M-X suggestion, and it could be done for less than $1K

Dual 15s with 2400W = $1200 = more output (20-63Hz), less distortion, smaller box.

DIYers don't really care about commercial prices.

Personally, a 1X18" in a black cube is so 80s.

Bosso
post #5 of 99
Quote:


DIYers don't really care about commercial prices.

Hehe, I think Craig wants us to price his new sub
post #6 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I agree with the M-X suggestion, and it could be done for less than $1K

Dual 15s with 2400W = $1200 = more output (20-63Hz), less distortion, smaller box.

DIYers don't really care about commercial prices.

Personally, a 1X18" in a black cube is so 80s.

Bosso

whats wrong with the 80's??


what 15s are you referring to that would take a smaller box?
post #7 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Does someone have Ilkka chart link showing performance of many popular subs?

I want to know what dBs many subs have at 20Hz?

107 dB at 20 Hz seems low.


107db at 20hz sounds low when you're looking at WinISD models, but when looking at Ilkka's tests like dual CSS SDX15s in 140 liters sealed with 3600 watts hitting 101db at 20hz outside, 107db doesnt sound so low anymore...

3600 watts EACH driver

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...aled-140l.html
post #8 of 99
Thanks, It doesnt seem low now
post #9 of 99
any idea on how the JTR captivator would perform? just an idea for commercial i think its under 1k
post #10 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by zero the hero View Post

107db at 20hz sounds low when you're looking at WinISD models, but when looking at Ilkka's tests like dual CSS SDX15s in 140 liters sealed with 3600 watts hitting 101db at 20hz outside, 107db doesnt sound so low anymore...

3600 watts EACH driver

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...aled-140l.html

All of Ilkka's measurements are at 2 meters. Reduce that to 1 meter and you add 6db So the CSS was doing 107 db at 1 meter..

Regards,

Dennis
post #11 of 99
ah good to know, thanks Dennis!

Still, dual 15's with ~7200 watts...
post #12 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by zero the hero View Post

ah good to know, thanks Dennis!

Still, dual 15's with ~7200 watts...

Here is a better example from Ilkka's tets:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ealed-90l.html

single 15" sealed 1800 watts 102 db at 2 meters (108 db at 1 meter)

Dennis
post #13 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Personally, a 1X18" in a black cube is so 80s.

Is that a dig?!
post #14 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by zero the hero View Post

ah good to know, thanks Dennis!

Still, dual 15's with ~7200 watts...

Nah...7200w at 20hz= 2 SDX's making hideously bad noises before detonating in massive over excursion damage. I can guarantee that full power was not applied at those freq's.
post #15 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Nah...7200w at 20hz= 2 SDX's making hideously bad noises before detonating in massive over excursion damage. I can guarantee that full power was not applied at those freq's.

Illka never states that so I agree. All that was said was that 2 amplifiers capable of that power were used, not that that much was delivered to the drivers.
post #16 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zero the hero View Post

You don't mention a size, but my best guess would be

A) $1000 (Maelstrom 18, 2000w)

B) ? $3-5000 ?


What F3 are we talking about?
Group delay numbers... really, who cares? Never been proven to be audible at those frequencies.
Being sealed, wouldn't the 12db/octave rolloff start waay ealier than 10hz?

For size, let's say appx. 5 ^ 3 internal (but if the subwoofer driver you use requires a larger cabinet, that's ok - please post the size).

Taking the Maelstrom 18 inch (a great unit), can you specify further how one is going to get driver, amp, LT Circuit and the enclosure built for under $1000 ?
post #17 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djarchow View Post

Here is a better example from Ilkka's tets:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ealed-90l.html

single 15" sealed 1800 watts 102 db at 2 meters (108 db at 1 meter)

Dennis

According to the chart, it was 101.1 dB. It also specifies a driver which is no longer available. Good find, but unfortunately no longer available.
post #18 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I agree with the M-X suggestion, and it could be done for less than $1K

Dual 15s with 2400W = $1200 = more output (20-63Hz), less distortion, smaller box.

DIYers don't really care about commercial prices.

Personally, a 1X18" in a black cube is so 80s.

Bosso

Does this mean you are finally settling on a price of $1200 for the Raven ? You should sell a lot of them, old friend, that's a GREAT deal.
post #19 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Taking the Maelstrom 18 inch (a great unit), can you specify further how one is going to get driver, amp, LT Circuit and the enclosure built for under $1000 ?

An LT is about $20 worth of parts (maybe $10 more to add an LR24 LPF in the same design), an EP2500/4000 cheap in the US and the M18 is what, $400?. Seems do able to me.
post #20 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Does this mean you are finally settling on a price of $1200 for the Raven ? You should sell a lot of them, old friend, that's a GREAT deal.

Actually, the Black Bird would sell for under $1K, but we both know the Raven is worth just a tad more.

M-X..........................$395
Shipping.......................45
2-4'X8' mdf...................45
Glue............................15
Truck bed liner..............15
Terminals.....................10
Stuffing........................10
Marathon MA-DJ5000.....250
BASSIS single board/PS.150
___________________________
TOTAL.......................$935.00

I would upgrade the amp and build the L/T myself and keep it right at $1K... IF price was the main consideration, which it's never been for me, but, comparing apples to apples, there it is.

These are retail prices. Quantity purchasing lowers the price. Build 4 subs and use 1 larger amp and one full mono BASSIS and the price drops to under $800 each.

Bosso
post #21 of 99
Thread Starter 
Bosso - That looks like a nice project. How are you liking the Marathon amps ?

Also - Do you have a link to Retail prices for your subwoofers ? I asked the guys to open a thread on TCA's forum about your stuff.
post #22 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Taking the Maelstrom 18 inch (a great unit), can you specify further how one is going to get driver, amp, LT Circuit and the enclosure built for under $1000 ?

hey craig, great to see you around again!

a mal-x in a 6 cubic foot enclosure has a -3db point of around 30hz. for many rooms, that will actually produce a flat response, more or less, all the way down. it is down 8 db from its peak at 20hz. seaton's submersive is down 6db from its peak at 20hz, so maybe the mal-x would need a tiny bit of boost. for a minimally optimal solution...

$400 driver
$300 amp
$? enclosure

of course, the mal-x w/2kw will exceed your 20hz spec by quite a bit.
post #23 of 99
$1200 ravens? no amp. no eq. right? after materials...at $100 hour for time, that is about 7 hours of work. no way could i create that enclosure in 7 hours. ergo, raven = FANTASTIC deal. i still think they look like hospital grade air cleaners though. ;-)
post #24 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Bosso - That looks like a nice project. How are you liking the Marathon amps ?

Also - Do you have a link to Retail prices for your subwoofers ? I asked the guys to open a thread on TCA's forum about your stuff.

So far, I love the Marathon MA 5050. I have it on the recommended dedicated 20A outlet and have had zero problems, and it appears to be flat to below 5Hz.

I don't have a link to retail prices because I don't retail the subs. I have built some on a custom order basis, priced according to the particulars.

I sell the subs I've built that I no longer use as I build new ones.

I'm working now on a new system I'm calling the Black Bird, but don't have much to say about it until it's ready and tested. It's very interesting on paper.

Thank you for your generosity with the TCA BW, a quality you've always displayed toward me and many others, and one I very much appreciate and respect.

As you know, I've never been a fan of the pimply black cube, especially a large one. Neither has anyone I know for that matter. I know there's a specific target market for such a product, but I prefer a more interesting form in a smaller size.

With that in mind, and as Josh caught, it's always a bit of a dig when I comment on such a contraption. No harm intended.

Bosso
post #25 of 99
Thread Starter 
LTD-02 ... The Mal-X looks like it will hit appx. 112 dB to the 107 dB specified here in the 6 cubes box - which is going to be 30x20x20 inches, assuming 1 inch MDF, or a little smaller, and a lot lighter, if one uses 18 mm Baltic Birch.

You are correct, not much low boost is going to be needed. Interestngly, the design to which I am alluding matches the Mal-X at 45 Hz, and is a bit more powerful above it.

The Mal-X 18 and 21 are the two DIY drivers that I have looked at the most when designing our stuff. And while I don't have any plans on making a DIYer into someone who will buy a TCA sub, I do want to have something that the DIYer can look at and tell his buddy that it's a nice choice if he does not want to do his own.

I think Penngray might even like our stuff. Ok, maybe not ...
post #26 of 99
Quote:


Marathon MA-DJ5000.....250


I never realized those amps where any good and that cheap.

Seems like a replacement choice for the EP2500, heck it has more power?? Im confused on why it isnt talked about?
post #27 of 99
Bosso,

I see you mentioned the Marathon MA-DJ5000 above. Have you used these amps also and if so how good are they. Price seems very low for what it's specs show.

James
post #28 of 99
hehe, I just posted that....
post #29 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

So far, I love the Marathon MA 5050. I have it on the recommended dedicated 20A outlet and have had zero problems, and it appears to be flat to below 5Hz.

I don't have a link to retail prices because I don't retail the subs. I have built some on a custom order basis, priced according to the particulars.

I sell the subs I've built that I no longer use as I build new ones.

I'm working now on a new system I'm calling the Black Bird, but don't have much to say about it until it's ready and tested. It's very interesting on paper.

Thank you for your generosity with the TCA BW, a quality you've always displayed toward me and many others, and one I very much appreciate and respect.

As you know, I've never been a fan of the pimply black cube, especially a large one. Neither has anyone I know for that matter. I know there's a specific target market for such a product, but I prefer a more interesting form in a smaller size.

With that in mind, and as Josh caught, it's always a bit of a dig when I comment on such a contraption. No harm intended.

Bosso

Bosso ... I wasn't really intending on getting too involved in the "whys" of what we are doing, but what the heck ...

We are going to have some "easy to live with" subwoofers in the budget range. One is a nice $500 project with dual 10's in a cabinet that looks like a small plant stand. It's sealed, and will give guys looking for into the teens extension in a moderate room a choice.

The other side of the equation is delivering quality bass using as little power as possible in a series of subwoofers. I understand you like the "small form with gobs of power" approach. We are going to something different with our designs.

For example, our mid level sub will have the ability to deliver 125 dB (1 meter outside) at 40 Hz from a 15 amp circuit.

And should you ever put The Raven into production, you are always welcome on TCA ... as is Kevin for his gear. I love how DIYCABLE is set up as a no nonsense company.
post #30 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

hehe, I just posted that....

lol. I was probably typing as you were submitting yours. Those Marathons do have my interest.
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