A hypothetical question for the DIY guys - Page 3

Heh. You caught me. I re read the context of your post in relation to what Craig said and it did make more sense after that.

Hey... just so you know, the only reason I come here and post is to pay the bills.

Ok... ok.... that isn't completely true. I'm sick and addicted to audio toys but other than that, the only reason I come here is to make money.


On a more serious note, I don't see any problem with coming here to post about a potential product or to even mildly pimp a future product. As long as you identify yourself and the fact that you have a commercial interest in post you really are not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes.

A sealed box design probably won't generate much interest is my guess though. It is fairly trivial and everyone who is a bass addict here has run through all the possible ways of squeaking output from various combos.

I'm most interested in reading more about Tom's horn. I've always loved horns for their effortless dynamics and I once had the mad idea that I was going to use my crawlspace to build one into my house (I came to my senses and it never happened). The problems I've always had with bass horn designs is the same problem I've had in any of the horns I've modeled, the limited bandwidth, size, and the roughness of the response. Wiggins had a big Tempest horn sub in the warehouse and while it would get real loud, it never did anything for me. Dr. Edgar's big bass horn is one of the few I've heard that actually sounded good, but it had pretty limited bandwidth and was completely limited down low by the pro-sound driver's Vd. It was a music only system so it didn't reach low enough to be a good HT sub.


Anyway... have to run.

Yes higher energy bills are coming. One reason why I installed a zone control system on my HVAC. My electric bills are pretty cheap (August was $120) and I am trying to keep them that way. I used 250 less KWH for August than I did for August last year and the temperature average for the whole month was 1- 1/2 degrees higher this August than for August of last year. Where I live you are running air conditioning for the whole month of August. House is a little over 3,600 SF, two HVAC systems and I have some very high ceilings. One room is over 12,000CF (17' high flat ceiling). With the way the economy is, money is not getting easier to come by, so I try to minimize what I waste. Unfortunately I have been doing more reading and less building in the last few months.

Only changes that I have made to my HT in the last 4-1/2 months (other than settings) are new AT fabric in my screen and a DIY horizontal masking system. Love the new screen and masking system. Would love to do more upgrades, but holding onto my money right now.

Did my post come off as an opinion that its wrong for him to pimp a new product? If it did I just want to say I do not think its wrong, Im unclear on forum rules about this topic though but again I personally do not care. He made a remark about posts saying "some of the usual scorn "...I didnt read much scorn and I commented that 3 posts answered his questions.

btw, Craig never confirmed or denied that he is going to be selling this idea, he just posted we didnt answer and something about usual scorn.

In typical Internet fashion I just scan these post so I may have read something into your post that wasn't implied.

Forgive me if I have.

Kevin

No worries with me!

I figured I needed to clarify.

Craig that is way too open ended.

You must define a target price range and much more impotantly a maximum external enclosure size. There is no correct answer to this anyway and especially with price no object/size no object, which are the 2 most important factors to look at IMO. What do you hope to gain out of this the breaking of HIL?

Otherwise I'm going to go ahead and call for the Matterhorn . Either that or 16 18" drivers in an IB the size of a small building with a modest 3000w. No need to look at simulations of spl #'s. It should get the job done.

Cool, I would love to get a big list of possibilities and they should be have a sticky so everyone can just pick the design with specs that meet the most of their needs.

I would say the new Danley TH-10 will be the best performer for under $1000 + shipping (shipping is unknown yet). Have you read about it?

It is a CNCed flat pack of MDF and two drivers. It should be way under $1,000.

I remember reading Ivan saying it would Baltic Birch and not MDF.

10 cu ft external and limited to a 15A breaker (2000-2500w realistically on peaks) I'd go with a 26" sealed cube, about 8 cu ft internal after displacements, with dual opposed B&C 21SW150's ($750ea), a QSC PLX3602 amplifier or similar ($1000), a Marchand Bassis for LT ($450) and heck throw a DCX2496 ($250)in for further tweakery. Cabinet materials and finish we'll call $300. $3500 total.

Option 2 would be switch the B&C's for 4 AV15H's. Everything else stays the same. Option 3 would be ditto but with 8 Peerless XLS 12's.

For 20 cu ft and a 30A breaker. Pick one of the first 3 options and multiply by 2. If you change either the enclosure size or the power supply available in either scenario, I'd change the build.

Okay it is a CNCed flat pack of Birch Plywood and two drivers. It should not cost any where near $1,000 plus shipping.

I agree. I, personally, am hoping for a kit nowhere over $600 but then again I have no idea how much the total kit will weigh and that factors in to the total price. I always wonder why something like a TH50 costs $3,000 with just one 15 inch driver. It's just a bunch of wood. Maybe an amp comes with it, I dunno...I doubt it but why so much?

Sorry for going OT.

You guys are looking a gift horse in the mouth.

If I recall, that 15" driver is close to $800 when it was first released. 13 ply Baltic birch is not cheap. And it uses a lot of Baltic birch. These are not typical 40 hz single fold horns. Plus I believe they hire out a wood shop to machine the wood and put a finish on it. Doing a standard 100% mark up that almost any business uses and you're probably at that $3k mark. No one gets upset about paying $1.50 for a soda at mcdonalds even though their cost is less than 20 cents.

+1

You aren't paying for just a 15" driver and some wood. You are paying for the design work and performance.

i agree with ricci's suggested systems as representing a good balance between low frequency spl and higher frequency attack. if cost is no object, use four drivers and a pl380 (for higher voltage).

18sound has some new high efficiency 21" drivers that would work in option #1 too.

since most folks don't run high efficiency mains, option #2 is probably good enough.

Spot on, figure the drivers are worth about $ 250 each, and the BB is not cheap. If I want to build my mains out of 1 inch BB, and going with the size I want, I would have to buy an entire lift of 16 sheets ( will have plenty of left overs... ) at $ 1600 Canadian. This is for 4 foot x 8 foot sheets, and a good price since I am buying a lift.

The store won't even consider bringing it in, unless I get a whole lift. Guys, this kit is a STEAL. Better get 2 or 3, even if you think you might not need them.

i'm still confused about wall power.

with 110 volts and 15 amps => 1650 watts. the corresponding load is 7.33 ohms.

so, what is the constraint? one can pump up voltage beyond the receptacle voltage. the total current (amperage) seems like a constraint as higher will trip the breaker. what about total power? is that a constraint?

for example, assuming that i had a sufficiently capable amp, could i draw 3300 watts into a 14.66 ohm load and 15 amps, and output 220 volts from the amplifier?

for this question, i am interested in the theory, so let's ignore the fact that 15 amps isn't a brick wall, and that voltage may vary under big loads, and that some power is stored in capacitors, etc. once i have the basic theory, then we can layer on all the real world effects.

the question arises from modelling the b&c and ae speakers mentioned above. the impedance peaks in the middle of the bass for both. i am wondering how this affects the 15 amp limitation craig asked about.

I agree, but with the DTS 10 I would guess that they have less than $300 in the two drivers and less than $100 in the plywood. CNC time and packaging should not be over $100. That is a long way from a $1,000 even when you include a percentage of the design cost and profit.

The drivers are modified Lab12's. Parts express sells Lab12's for $156 (US) retail. I doubt that Danley is paying more than that for the modded ones. In the quantities that Danley probably buys Baltic Birch they are probably paying some where between $50 to $75 a sheet. I have bought 3/4" plyform 15 to 20 lifts (about 60 sheets a lift) at a time and you do not pay anywhere near what one sheet costs in the store.

running a business requires much more than you mention.

office and warehouse rent.

employee health insurance.

returns.

utilities.

tax accountants.

tooling costs.

legal fees for the employee who slipped on the spilled coffee and sued your butt.

it never ends.

gross margin != net margin.

after all is considered, this sub is likely a gift from mr. danley and his team.

Here are two sub set-ups for around the same price using the same sub(s) that would work with 15A. You could also use the same set-ups with smaller enclousures (5cf) with the AV15H subs.

Option #1 - AV15X sub, $275 w S/H
AE 2 x 18-2100 PR's, $250 w S/H
ED LT 1300 amp, $450
ED EQ2 or Behringer EQ, $100
Birch ply, 2PCS, 4' x 8', $100
Other supplies such as glue, screws, paint, stuffing, etc., $100
Also, a EP2500/4000 amp could be used for $100 less.

Option #2 - Same as above except it would substitute the PR's with two
AV15X subs in a opposite built sealed box for $50 more. So
option #1 would be $1,275 and option #2 would be $1,325.

Both set-ups would go in a 7cf enclousure, with the tuning of the PR's sub at 16hz + 1,300 watts input and the dual sub set-up getting some 650watts per driver. I believe the dual drivers would need to be built dual 8ohms in order to give the amp a 4ohm load. Here are the graph readings I got from AE (within +/- 1db);
Option #1 Option #2
Frequency AV15X sub w/PR's AV15X dual sealed subs
15 110db's 103.5db's
20 114.6db's 108db's
30 117db's 114db's
40 118.4db's 117.5db's
50 119.3db's 119.5db's
60 120db's 120.5db's
70 120.3db's 121db's
80 120.6db's 121.5db's
90 120.8db's 121.75db's
100 121db's 122db's

I have option #1, but I almost went with option #2. Why? Well, my room is 6,000cf and I wanted a flat frequency response from 15-20hz to 100hz, which I got with the very little room gain I got. Which set-up is best? It depends on your low/mid-bass and linearity preferences, room gain, etc. I do think the AV15X dual sealed subs should be close to the Submersive sub, performance wise.

Been running a business for many years. Commercial GC. Here is one project that we built. www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g39237-d488811-Reviews-Dale_Hollow_Lake_State_Resort_Mary_Ray_Oaken_Lodge-Burkesville_Kentucky.html

Not shown in that picture is the pool we built and a second hotel to the left of the one in the picture. Second hotel was built at a later date.

Sorry for the frequency and db's numbers being so close together, it can be confusing. The first colums is option-#1 (the PR's sub) and option-#2 is the dual subs sealed. Also, by adding some 1-lb per cf or so of stuffing to the enclousures it should make the enclousures around 8cf or so. In the PR sub it will lower the tune a bit (from 16.1hz to 15.5hz or so) and make the sealed box 4cf per driver which might increase the low-bass .5db-1db.

what mains did you match to spanish?

I'm running Mirage Omnisats V2 FT which are very efficient and have great imaging but are lacking in bass, they only go down to 55hz. The best sound I get is with a crossover of 100hz. I'm looking to upgrade in the next few months to maybe Energy RC70's or Jamo C607's which have gotten good reviews for their sound, look good and are reasonable priced. My space is somewhat limited so I can't have speakers that are too big.