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72Hz refresh rate on Pioneer; what does it mean?

post #1 of 22
10/25/09 at 11:50am
Thread Starter 
Is the refresh rate the same as with LCD tV's? My sony has 120Hz. Is this better?
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post #2 of 22
10/25/09 at 12:20pm
The 72fps refresh rate allow 24fps content to be displayed using 3:3 pull down which eliminates Judder when each frame of 24fps content is not displayed the same number of times. A 120 HZ set does the same for 24fps content since it then uses 5:5 pulldown.
Your Sony LCD also redces motion blur on 60 fps content by reducing the LCD response time since it creates a new frame between each pair of incoming 60fps frames.
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post #3 of 22
10/25/09 at 5:06pm
Thread Starter 
i am still lost. Will I get judder on a plasma when watchind tv shows on cable filmmed at 60fps?
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post #4 of 22
10/25/09 at 5:32pm
Yes you will.
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post #5 of 22
10/25/09 at 5:38pm
But the Pioneers can do both 72Hz and 60Hz.
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post #6 of 22
10/25/09 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecutter View Post

i am still lost. Will I get judder on a plasma when watchind tv shows on cable filmmed at 60fps?

Depends on what you are talking about. If you are asking about a 24 fps movie on cable or OTA, there will be judder since the set will operate with a refresh rate of 60 Hz. It is technically possible for a set to recover the 24 fps signal, switch to its 72 Hz refresh rate and eliminate Judder but I don't think any Plasma or LCD does this.

If you are asking about a show which has been recorded using 60i or 60p, those do not have any judder.
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post #7 of 22
10/25/09 at 10:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by txrose View Post

It is technically possible for a set to recover the 24 fps signal, switch to its 72 Hz refresh rate and eliminate Judder but I don't think any Plasma or LCD does this.

Back in 2006, only a few TVs could detect the 3:2 film cadence and de-interlace 1080i60 correctly, but there should be very few that can't these days.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookme...ook/index.html
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post #8 of 22
10/25/09 at 11:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post

Back in 2006, only a few TVs could detect the 3:2 film cadence and de-interlace 1080i60 correctly, but there should be very few that can't these days.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookme...ook/index.html

This may be true for deinterlacing, but I don't think any TV will recover 24p from a 1080i60 source. That is to say the judder will not be removed.
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post #9 of 22
10/26/09 at 7:04am
TVs and graphic cards can use a technique called "Inverse telecine" to recover the origional 24fps souce from film based programs.
There are descriptions of it at in available in the following Bing search results:

http://www.bing.com/search?q=inverse...&filt=all&qs=n
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post #10 of 22
10/26/09 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanb View Post

This may be true for deinterlacing, but I don't think any TV will recover 24p from a 1080i60 source. That is to say the judder will not be removed.

Why do you believe this? Did you see a recent article testing for this and showing only failures?

Here are for instance D-Nice's observations of the PRO-111FD:


Quote:


Other Measurements

Dead pixels None

Screen uniformity Perfect

HDMI Overscan 0% with Dot by Dot and 2% with Full

Blacker than black Passed

Black level Excellent

Black level retention None

Video deinterlacing Excellent

Film deinterlacing Passed 3:2/ 2:2 cadence in all resolutions

Viewing angle Excellent (> 150°)

Motion resolution 950 lines

Digital noise reduction Excellent

Sharpness Defeatable edge enhancement

Image retention Very minor before 150 hour break‐in. Zero after.

Posterization None

1080p/24 capability Yes. No telecine judder
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post #11 of 22
10/26/09 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post

Why do you believe this? Did you see a recent article testing for this and showing only failures?

Here are for instance D-Nice's observations of the PRO-111FD:

I don't read that as saying it can recover 24p/72Hz. I read it as 2 things - it can deinterlace 1080i60 properly (still at 60Hz) and that it can accept a 24p signal.

Since TV tends to be a mixed environment of film and video, I don't think you'd want the set constantly changing refresh rates as the content changes.
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post #12 of 22
10/26/09 at 10:12am
The PRO-111FD can definitely reconstruct 24 fps material encoded as 1080i/60 for broadcast. I've have personally verified that the refresh rate of the display will dynamically switch from 60Hz to 72Hz when such material is presented. You can enable this processing by setting PureCinema to Advance mode.

However, it is not without its problems. Often material that was recorded at 24 fps is then subsequently edited on video editing equipment and the 24 fps cadence is disrupted at edit points. On certain material (mostly made for television material) this is particularly objectionable as the decoding within the display skips frames when it attempts to resync.
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post #13 of 22
10/26/09 at 10:21am
All right, how about this?

Quote:


Plasma monitors refresh at 60Hz, although one brand (Pioneer) offers the option of 72Hz when displaying 24p. When running at 72Hz, as shown in Figure 5, each frame is repeated three times — 3:3 pulldown. (Pioneer monitors can obtain 24p via a 1080p24 input or from a 1080i60 signal using its film-mode deinterlacer.)

http://broadcastengineering.com/test...rs/index1.html

Again, why do you doubt the TVs that support 24Hz or some multiple of it, can't do this correctly?
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post #14 of 22
10/26/09 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptrunley View Post

Often material that was recorded at 24 fps is then subsequently edited on video editing equipment and the 24 fps cadence is disrupted at edit points.

That I can believe as even recent tests confirm that most TVs fail deinterlacing tests that mix both film and video content.
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post #15 of 22
10/26/09 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptrunley View Post

The PRO-111FD can definitely reconstruct 24 fps material encoded as 1080i/60 for broadcast. I've have personally verified that the refresh rate of the display will dynamically switch from 60Hz to 72Hz when such material is presented. You can enable this processing by setting PureCinema to Advance mode.

However, it is not without its problems. Often material that was recorded at 24 fps is then subsequently edited on video editing equipment and the 24 fps cadence is disrupted at edit points. On certain material (mostly made for television material) this is particularly objectionable as the decoding within the display skips frames when it attempts to resync.

I assume the same type of behavior occurs when the program goes to commercials as well.
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post #16 of 22
10/26/09 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post

All right, how about this?



http://broadcastengineering.com/test...rs/index1.html

Again, why do you doubt the TVs that support 24Hz or some multiple of it, can't do this correctly?

I stand corrected as I didn't know the Pioneer will try to do this. As noted however, it does not work all that well as TV content does not maintain a constant framerate.
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post #17 of 22
10/26/09 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanb View Post

I stand corrected as I didn't know the Pioneer will try to do this. As noted however, it does not work all that well as TV content does not maintain a constant framerate.

I've got no complaints. Any change of cadence is going to cause a de-interlacer to have to re-detect and resync to the source - not that I've ever noticed it.

If Pioneer was still one of the only manufacturers to convert 1080i60 to 1080p24/48/72/96 correctly, I can't imagine why people wouldn't be making a bigger deal about it on the forum.

What's your experience with this Bryan - do you own a TV that doesn't do this, right?
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post #18 of 22
10/26/09 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post

I've got no complaints. Any change of cadence is going to cause a de-interlacer to have to re-detect and resync to the source - not that I've ever noticed it.

If Pioneer was still one of the only manufacturers to convert 1080i60 to 1080p24/48/72/96 correctly, I can't imagine why people wouldn't be making a bigger deal about it on the forum.

What's your experience with this Bryan - do you own a TV that doesn't do this, right?

I have a Panasonic V10 which does not do this. The 96Hz/48Hz modes are only active when receiving a 24p signal. Othewise the set runs at 60Hz.
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post #19 of 22
10/26/09 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanb View Post

I have a Panasonic V10 which does not do this. The 96Hz/48Hz modes are only active when receiving a 24p signal. Othewise the set runs at 60Hz.

Ouch. How did you confirm?

I would have expected Panasonic to have gone to the bother of getting this right on their higher end sets, but then again we've got plenty of folks arguing for the S10 and G10 claiming the difference between 60Hz and 96Hz processing isn't a big deal on 1080p24 sources.
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post #20 of 22
10/26/09 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post

Ouch. How did you confirm?

I would have expected Panasonic to have gone to the bother of getting this right on their higher end sets, but then again we've got plenty of folks arguing for the S10 and G10 claiming the difference between 60Hz and 96Hz processing isn't a big deal on 1080p24 sources.

Yes that is true. Only for 24p signals it becomes active. Blu ray essentially.
Even for DVDs you can use 24p signal provided your DVD/Blu ray player is capable of outputting. My Panasonic blu ray player DMP-BD55 allows me to change the output to 24p even while playing DVD. It does an excellent upconversion.
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post #21 of 22
10/26/09 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post

Ouch. How did you confirm?

I would have expected Panasonic to have gone to the bother of getting this right on their higher end sets, but then again we've got plenty of folks arguing for the S10 and G10 claiming the difference between 60Hz and 96Hz processing isn't a big deal on 1080p24 sources.

The refresh rate option is greyed out and stuck at 60Hz unless the set is receiving a 24p signal.
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post #22 of 22
10/27/09 at 9:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanb View Post

I assume the same type of behavior occurs when the program goes to commercials as well.

I've not noticed it so much in this case, though I don't watch a lot of material with commercials, and I usually skip through commercials when I do. In any case if there was a momentary hiccup at this point it wouldn't bother me at all. When it does happen it is much more noticable and objectionable at edit points within the program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanb View Post

I stand corrected as I didn't know the Pioneer will try to do this. As noted however, it does not work all that well as TV content does not maintain a constant framerate.

You shouldn't get the impression that it is useless, in fact I have this setting enabled by default, and only rarely do I find the need to turn it off. For the vast majority of what I watch the system works well and there are no artifacts. Even the occasional re-sync/hiccup on certain material might not be noticable for some.
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