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Paradigm Sub 1 and Sub 2 - Page 39

post #1141 of 1511
Played How To Train Your Dragon this weekend. Went to the part where the dragon crashes at the end and it did not bottom out my sub. For reference, I had my MRX700 at -10dB, my sub is set at -5 and my volume on the sub is set at half with the crossover at bypass. I wasn't as impressed with this scene as I was with Iron Man and War of the Worlds. It was a nice boom but nothing compared to the cave scene or WotW.
post #1142 of 1511
Ordered a Sub 1 in Gloss Black today.
I am replacing first generation Martin Logan
Descent. I am thinking and hoping I will hear
A big upgrade from the ML to the Sub 1.
What ya think?
post #1143 of 1511
The cabinets are almost identical in size:

MartinLogan Descent 21.75" x 20" x 18.25" (HxWxD)
Paradigm SUB 1 20.25" x 19.875" x 17.875" (HxWxD)

You are going from three 10" drivers to six 8" drivers, but the total increase in displacement is unknown. According to Hoffman' Iron Law, efficiency is proportional to cabinet volume, and you are going from 400 watts to 1700 watts, a moderate increase.

I don't think you will see much of a maximum sound pressure level increase, but I did find the SUB 1 has very low distortion; in fact it might sound like the bass has decreased. I've never listened to the Descent, so I'll be interested to know your impressions once it arrives.

If you wanted a significant upgrade you should have gone for the SUB 2
post #1144 of 1511
Sub 2 is just too expensive. $9 grand for a sub just isn't happening for my wife and I. I guess I should not have asked the question as now I am filled with anxiety that I made a mistake in buying the Sub 1 to replace the ML Descent. If it's not better, it's an expensive mistake.
Guess I will know in about a week or so.
post #1145 of 1511
Sub 1 installed. Sounds great. It is faster, tighter, with more output
Than ML Descent. Amazing how fast this Sub is!
post #1146 of 1511
Another difference is the SUB 1 comes with the PBK. Have you used it yet?
post #1147 of 1511
Yes!
post #1148 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmoviefan View Post

Sub 1 installed. Sounds great. It is faster, tighter, with more output
Than ML Descent. Amazing how fast this Sub is!


Congrats on your purchase.
post #1149 of 1511
How many hours would you say it takes to break in
A Sub 1? Left system on low last night
On the retro disco channel on direcTV.
Boom Boom! Ha! I played it really loud for
A few hours today to get those woofers a bit
More broke in. Calibrating with PBK definitely
Helps sound.
post #1150 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmoviefan View Post
How many hours would you say it takes to break in
A Sub 1? Left system on low last night
On the retro disco channel on direcTV.
Boom Boom! Ha! I played it really loud for
A few hours today to get those woofers a bit
More broke in. Calibrating with PBK definitely
Helps sound.
I was told 40 hours for my Sub 2, and I noticed a difference.
post #1151 of 1511
Thanks Studleygoorite.
post #1152 of 1511
Home Theatre Magazine's review is now available on their website:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/p...ub-2-subwoofer
post #1153 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by |M|B.M.F. View Post

I believe others Billybobjimbob and astral-essence have reported the sub 2 cutting out with loud poping noise followed by the sub shutting down - indicated by a flashing blue logo light and the sub not producing any sound. As of late, I have been having the exact same thing happen with my Sub 2. If i have my Anthem volume set at -5db or higher the sub cuts out in several scenes of several movies. Specifically, the scene in Tron when the son enters the digital world via the laser. The volume level of the sub is set at 1/4 from the min setting. Sub level is -2 in my D2. The sub2 is also pbk and arc ed. . Sub is set as flat.

I have to unplug the sub then wait about 2 minutes for the light to slowly go out and then plug the sub back in to get it going again.

Any updates from paradigm support for those that experienced this problem as well?

I am going to contact tech support tomorrow and find out what they can do.

There is not way I am going to box this thing up and take is some where for repair. Oh, and I have my sub2 hooked up to a 240V line.

OK folks...here is the final update in regards to the SUB2's cutting out. We were working with Piero at Paradigm (who by the way was extremely and lightning fast in his responses and on top of the issue immediately) to try and troubleshoot the issue. He was in the process of shipping out a brand new SUB2 to my dealer so that I could send mine in so they could try and replicate the issues with the same movie scenes I had provided.

It just so happened that while this was in the process, my audio guys had come over to reinstall my anamorphic lens and install my Audioquest balanced cable and remove the RCA that was currently being used. Basically one SUB2 was using a balanced cable and the other was not because Audioquest had originally sent the wrong one. Let me make a long story short and just say this..........after a weekend of troubleshooting, re-reading the manual and testing the SUB2's over and over the problem was completely gone. After discussing this with Piero and him discussing it with the D2V designer, this is what we were told:

"The Sub 2 designer mentioned that if one sub is being fed a higher output, the next Sub would easily clip, causing both of them to shut down, and possible tripping the breaker." and they confirmed this by saying "Yes, you should not run with two different connections with this design."

So basically for anyone wanting to run multiple SUBS with a D2V, the message from the team is basically make sure you run one or the other in terms of Balanced or RCA and not a combination.

Have to say that the guys at Paradigm really jumped on trying to get me a resolution ASAP which at that point was to get me one of the next Subs off the production line. It was about to be shipped but we were able to stop it as the problem was fixed in time. Excellent customer service experience with Paradigm and of course my dealer here in San Diego - DSS Systems. Mark is always on top of things and gets things taken care of asap.

I now can play the SUB2's are literally ear shattering levels, wide open all day long! They eat everything thrown at it without even a slight hiccup.

AE
post #1154 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by astral_essence View Post

OK folks...here is the final update in regards to the SUB2's cutting out. We were working with Piero at Paradigm (who by the way was extremely and lightning fast in his responses and on top of the issue immediately) to try and troubleshoot the issue. He was in the process of shipping out a brand new SUB2 to my dealer so that I could send mine in so they could try and replicate the issues with the same movie scenes I had provided.

It just so happened that while this was in the process, my audio guys had come over to reinstall my anamorphic lens and install my Audioquest balanced cable and remove the RCA that was currently being used. Basically one SUB2 was using a balanced cable and the other was not because Audioquest had originally sent the wrong one. Let me make a long story short and just say this..........after a weekend of troubleshooting, re-reading the manual and testing the SUB2's over and over the problem was completely gone. After discussing this with Piero and him discussing it with the D2V designer, this is what we were told:

"The Sub 2 designer mentioned that if one sub is being fed a higher output, the next Sub would easily clip, causing both of them to shut down, and possible tripping the breaker." and they confirmed this by saying "Yes, you should not run with two different connections with this design."

So basically for anyone wanting to run multiple SUBS with a D2V, the message from the team is basically make sure you run one or the other in terms of Balanced or RCA and not a combination.

Have to say that the guys at Paradigm really jumped on trying to get me a resolution ASAP which at that point was to get me one of the next Subs off the production line. It was about to be shipped but we were able to stop it as the problem was fixed in time. Excellent customer service experience with Paradigm and of course my dealer here in San Diego - DSS Systems. Mark is always on top of things and gets things taken care of asap.

I now can play the SUB2's are literally ear shattering levels, wide open all day long! They eat everything thrown at it without even a slight hiccup.

AE


Thanks for the info. You have 2 Sub 2s? May I ask how large your room is? I am thinking of getting another.

John
post #1155 of 1511
Need help... Upgrading ht and went with the paradigm references and originally ordered the sub 25, being delivered next week! Question is the same old same old, stick with the sub 25 or roll over to the sub 2? please help and sorry if this is repetitive.
post #1156 of 1511
Look earlier in the thread here to get the answer:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post19056813
post #1157 of 1511
Thx, I read most every page and got the feeling there was some room for error. Just want to make sure on these since it is quite an investment. I don't mind going to 2 sub 25s but just recently saw so many ads and reviews on the sub 2, thought it was worth the question.
post #1158 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by studlygoorite View Post
Thanks for the info. You have 2 Sub 2s? May I ask how large your room is? I am thinking of getting another.

John
Hi John,

My room is 15X22.

AE
post #1159 of 1511
^^^ with 2 Sub 2s, now that is some serious pressurization
post #1160 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

^^^ with 2 Sub 2s, now that is some serious pressurization

Yes, and serious hits to someone's bank account.
I wonder if anyone has a formula for figuring out the ratio of sound pressure
to dollars invested in sub woofers.
post #1161 of 1511
do the sub1 & sub2 offer better "in room" frequency smoothing since they radiate sound in 3 directions as opposed to a single driver subwoofer ?

or are all the driver too close together and couple ?
post #1162 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestewman View Post

Yes, and serious hits to someone's bank account.
I wonder if anyone has a formula for figuring out the ratio of sound pressure
to dollars invested in sub woofers.

that would probably depend on which sub you're comparing it to and it's not just about going louder, we also have to assume this "other subwoofer" has equal sound quality

you could probably buy a whole boat load of empires but will they go as low ? and with the sound quality be comparable

then there's reliability, aesthetics and so on

a pair of these would disappear in one's living room but a whole "stack" of "other subs", not so much

then i guess there's always IB

everyone's needs, desires and budgets willy vary

it's always good to have options

live and let live
post #1163 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestewman View Post

Yes, and serious hits to someone's bank account.
I wonder if anyone has a formula for figuring out the ratio of sound pressure
to dollars invested in sub woofers.

That's exactly what I tried to do a year ago by calculating cost per cubic inch.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18654790
post #1164 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

^^^ with 2 Sub 2s, now that is some serious pressurization


What can I say..........I like my bass deep with plenty of headroom to spare....... Especially comes in handy when you want to blow someones wig back when doing a demo!

Plus, a multiple sub setup will offer better overall room pressurization and balance as compared to a single sub setup. There are a few good articles out there that discuss this in depth and the benefits. Of course like anything you can get to the point of diminishing returns, but if I remember correctly 4 subs, each placed along the midpoint of each wall was the ideal setup.
post #1165 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

Here is an excerpt from the Home Theatre magazine review of the SUB 2:



I'm sure it's a great sub BUT

-3dB down at 12Hz? so? I can EQ my 6.5" subwoofer to be -3dB down at 12Hz too. One really needs to include the SPL measured at for example 3% THD.

15 ft ceilings? 1140ft/s/2/15ft = 38Hz so their numbers under 38Hz are inaccurate. That's why the most accurate measurements are taken outdoors in a large field far away from any boundaries (walls).
post #1166 of 1511
Yes, I agree these measurements didn't provide me any useful information, but I thought I would put them up for discussion anyway.
post #1167 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahak94 View Post


-3dB down at 12Hz? so? I can EQ my 6.5" subwoofer to be -3dB down at 12Hz too. One really needs to include the SPL measured at for example 3% THD.

I have serious doubts that ANY 6.5 sub can play audibly at 12Hz at all, let alone be 3db down. Physics are very hard to work around.

What sub do you have?
post #1168 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I have serious doubts that ANY 6.5 sub can play audibly at 12Hz at all, let alone be 3db down. Physics are very hard to work around.

What sub do you have?

That's exactly my point, it can't but you wouldn't know that without additional info such as SPL capability and THD+N at 12Hz.

I have a B&W ASW608, the 6.5" sub reference was arbitrary to make a point. A 6.5" sub can be EQ'd to produce a frequency response graph like the Paradigm sub...but at a uselessly low SPL so that graph alone is of minimal use.

I'm not knocking the Paradigm sub. I suspect it produces one of the highest 12Hz SPL measurements out there. It's just funny how specsmanship can paint a picture that doesn't actually reveal a whole lot of useful information about the product's capability and in this case, I believe that article didn't do the sub justice by not including other numbers.

mbfleming, regardless, thanks for posting it.
post #1169 of 1511
OVERPRICED Subwoofers; yeah the paradigm and the JL are very nice subs but what SUB at 7-10K isn't?
you can buy better or equal subs at a fraction of this price
the Danley Sound labs sub DTS10 OR DTS20 will outperform the Paradigm; the IMAX Theater in Chicago has 4 Danley Subs in it; those subs MSRP is $2,900 !!! Amps are not expensive
1 of those is better than the Paradigm;, 4 of those will KILL the Paradigm sub. if that IMAX Theater in Chicago replaced their 4 Danley's with 1 Paradigm, their sound would go down bigtime

also, the Paradigm Sub says 106db at 20HZ? the VMPS Larger Sub can do 120db at 20Hz !! Insanely Loud. that is WAY better;
Nassau bought 2 of these subs to their facility because they needed to be able to produce that volume at 20HZ
that is a difference of 14db ! Night and Day
the price of the VMPS Sub ? $850 !!! plus $400 for the Amp; I have a paradigm dealer here in Michigan who has heard the Paradigm a few times and even he told me the VMPS Sub is the best he has heard !!
it costs a fraction of the price ! and if you get 2 of them and put them in each side of the room; you will smoke the Paradigm; the SPL level would be insane as well; and you paid WAY less money for it; which is the name of the game here; to get the best for the least on the opposite
that VMPS sub has a 15 driver, a 12 driver and a 15 radiator; that sub was made to go with the High End VMPS ribbon speakers for music, which are great sounding but it is a killer Sub for both music and movie use
also, all these brands like SVS, HSU, Elemental Designs,etc all undercut these ridiculously priced subs;
even Emotiva has come out with a $500 Sub that in outdid a JL $1,500 sub in a few categories;

ultimately, you have to match the levels of the Sub with the Mains to get balanced sound. you can't just hook up more and more bass so it makes NO sense to buy any Sub that costs more than 1,500 considering what the competition is selling their subs at

I am all for getting Multiple Subs because you get more balanced and effortless sound and clearly more SPL but the prices of the Paradigm and the JL are Laughable
I own a JL Sub in my Car; it is the same woofer used the JL 112 model

I recently got the VMPS to go with 2 Klipsch Ultra 2 THX subs and the combination of all 3 is Incredible after using the Anthem ARC room correction
post #1170 of 1511
some people don't want big ugly wooden plywood boxes sitting in their living room

some people don't want ported subs

"over priced" is subjective

live and let live

peace and love peace and love
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