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Paradigm Sub 1 and Sub 2 - Page 8

post #211 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

Just a footnote re: the CES demo...

It was excellent some of the best trade show sound I've heard in regards to HT. Now please keep in mind, as I recall, there were two Sub 2 [or was it 2 x Sub 1s??] 2 x 10-12" supporting side/surround subs all eq'd by a standlone high dollar Trinnov rig!

Two Sub 2s two Ultracubes indeed but EQ was by ARC in a Statement D2v.
post #212 of 1511
Adam Rayner of Home Cinema Choice talks to Mark Aling, marketing manager for Paradigm Electronics at the Bristol Show 2010:



Adam also promises a review of the SUB 2 in his blog:

Quote:
Read more reports from the 2010 Bristol Show in Home Cinema Choice issue 181, on sale April 8, and HCC's review of the Paradigm Signature Sub 2 in issue 182, on sale May 6.
post #213 of 1511
post #214 of 1511

Now if they will only start producing and distributing their product to us, the users, to evaluate and enjoy.
post #215 of 1511
Quote:

Quote:


"The SIM 2/Anthem/Paradigm room was, for me, the most impressive - great visuals and better sound."

"Paradigm SUB 2 is just awesome, no other word to describe them, with 4500 watt amps & x6 10" drivers"

"The SUB 2 was insane!!"

I'm going insane waiting for them to ship.
post #216 of 1511
I know how you feel im still waiting for my sub25 to be delivered, but i told him i better be getting something extra for the delay. If i had more $$$ i would have went with the sub2 but money is tight. Even they are saying how crazy the sub2 is, even whatifhi will be reviewing the sub2 soon as well.
post #217 of 1511
Any strong feelings on this...wait for 1 sub 2 and use it with my Klipsch RT-10d (that was the original plan. Or

Just go with two Sub 1's.

Kind of sad as I have the 240V line just waiting for the Sub 2 and she is all paid for. Simply waiting but growing tired of waiting and wondering now if two sub 1 will be better overall. Thoughts?
post #218 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixiu View Post

Any strong feelings on this...wait for 1 sub 2 and use it with my Klipsch RT-10d (that was the original plan. Or

Just go with two Sub 1's.

Kind of sad as I have the 240V line just waiting for the Sub 2 and she is all paid for. Simply waiting but growing tired of waiting and wondering now if two sub 1 will be better overall. Thoughts?

I dunno, hard comparison there. The sub 2 will just kill the RT-10D in terms of output and SQ.

I kinda personally like the Idea of the dual Sub1's. Honestly that should give you plenty of output to satisfy your bass cravings

I guess the major question here should be what size is your room?
post #219 of 1511
That would also beg the question of if the room isn't big enough, would there be cancelling going on with all those drivers firing around.
post #220 of 1511
Subwoofer drivers in an array such as the Sub 1, Sub 2, Seaton Submersive will become coupled together and act as one...
Even Dual subs even with as many drivers as the Sub 1 or Sub 2 will always act as a 2 separate entities.
post #221 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Subwoofer drivers in an array such as the Sub 1, Sub 2, Seaton Submersive will become coupled together and act as one...
Even Dual subs even with as many drivers as the Sub 1 or Sub 2 will always act as a 2 separate entities.

Correct, the wavelengths the sub is producing are 10+ ft, the drivers being offset less than a foot doesn't produce any destructive interference. The sub is a monopole source regardless.
post #222 of 1511
Big open concept great room (typical for AZ houses). So Kitchen, dining, living room, formal dinning all in one area with no walls. Maybe 1,000 sq ft + of open area. I know tough condition. That is why thinking the Sub 2 would really fill the room nicely.
post #223 of 1511
My dealer just told me that the sub2 is now not shipping until Mid June. WTF?
post #224 of 1511
I wonder which is the best subwoofer out of these 4 names? this would be an interesting sub shoot out

How does the sub 2 measure up to the rest of the subwoofers below

1. Paradigm Signature Sub 2
http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference...-5-17.paradigm

2. Velodyne Digital Drive 1812 Signature Edition
http://www.velodyne.com/products/pro...3&sid=903i346d

3. JL Audio Gotham®
http://home.jlaudio.com/products_sub....php?page_id=3

4. Genelec HTS6
http://www.genelec-ht.com/subwoofers/hts6/

Attached is a pic with results from sound and vision on the Velodyne and Genelec sub.

The thread has been quiet for a bit maybe this would be a good debate. Before anyone starts getting worked up about thr thread being hijack and stuff etc... I have a buddy who is buying the sub 2 he wants to know the differences between these guys.
LL
post #225 of 1511
whasaaab.... I think you should look into a more custom design at this point...

Trust me - there are plenty of options out there that will truly blow away all the products that you have mentioned here...

A single Dual Opposed TC Sounds 18" LMS will put out at least 3 times a Seaton Submersive with proper amplification... There are other alternatives to buying commercial units... a pair of DTS-10's would be easily as impressive to compete in this realm if you can handle the size and looks...
post #226 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

whasaaab.... I think you should look into a more custom design at this point...

Trust me - there are plenty of options out there that will truly blow away all the products that you have mentioned here...

A single Dual Opposed TC Sounds 18" LMS will put out at least 3 times a Seaton Submersive with proper amplification... There are other alternatives to buying commercial units... a pair of DTS-10's would be easily as impressive to compete in this realm if you can handle the size and looks...

I would love those as well but who has the time to put those power houses together. My friend knows nothing about audio or the video world. He does not have the time to put those guys together.

The DTS-10 you need a lot of room for that guy man is it ever huge so this is why he asked about the following that i mentioned. He has the $$$$$$ to buy those subs mentioned, but im trying to have him hold out until mark has his dual 18ich submersive with new amp and design ready for sale.

Then i would compare the submersive with thesub2 etc.....

I am getting the sub25 for now until i move to a house next year then we will see about the two monsters you mentioned above
post #227 of 1511
Thread Starter 
Whas and Warp [and all],

The JLA Gotham is a statement product. You are paying for fit and finish AND performance. The combination cannot be beat period. I did not say it was the best peforming regarding output in the LF spectrum BUT when you combine looks, F&F, sound quality and measured performance its tough not to love the total package.

The Genelec HTS6 is a great sub! I really like this product. Though big bucks [still a grand less than the JLA G213] it is a rock solid performer. The build quality is second to none but it ain't pretty. During a demo a few years back I was about 10-12' from the sub and it was ruffling my pant legs!

Yes if you are an accomplished DIY guy like Warp and others you can put some great packages together for much less money than those products listed above. However not all of all us have that skill set.
post #228 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

Whas and Warp [and all],

The JLA Gotham is a statement product. You are paying for fit and finish AND performance. The combination cannot be beat period. I did not say it was the best peforming regarding output in the LF spectrum BUT when you combine looks, F&F, sound quality and measured performance its tough not to love the total package.

The Genelec HTS6 is a great sub! I really like this product. Though big bucks [still a grand less than the JLA G213] it is a rock solid performer. The build quality is second to none but it ain't pretty. During a demo a few years back I was about 10-12' from the sub and it was ruffling my pant legs!

Yes if you are an accomplished DIY guy like Warp and others you can put some great packages together for much less money than those products listed above. However not all of all us have that skill set.

No arguments here, the Gotham is gorgeous! Imho, the Sub 2 is right up there with it. The only negative is the non removable grills, though not Paradigm's fault from my understanding.
post #229 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

Whas and Warp [and all],

The JLA Gotham is a statement product. You are paying for fit and finish AND performance. The combination cannot be beat period. I did not say it was the best peforming regarding output in the LF spectrum BUT when you combine looks, F&F, sound quality and measured performance its tough not to love the total package.

The Genelec HTS6 is a great sub! I really like this product. Though big bucks [still a grand less than the JLA G213] it is a rock solid performer. The build quality is second to none but it ain't pretty. During a demo a few years back I was about 10-12' from the sub and it was ruffling my pant legs!

Yes if you are an accomplished DIY guy like Warp and others you can put some great packages together for much less money than those products listed above. However not all of all us have that skill set.


Good points, though I'm not sure how much skill set you need to have to put together a package such as mentioned... I have built my own subs and pounded out some great performance, but now in the end - I had John at AE Speakers custom build this latest set of 3 boxes for me, to be delivered shortly. I just didin't have the time or skill set to make my last and final boxes. I provided the specs, and he laid it all out in CAD just the way I wanted it. I will provide the drivers, take care of the wiring, drop the drivers in and power them up.... Of coarse I'll have some EQ work - and lots of measuring to accomplish, but that goes with the territory for anyone with multiple subs in any room....


The only problem with subs like the Gotham and Sub 2, is that its really hard to judge them both without measurements, and comparing and contrasting the 2 - without knowing driver excursion and real world numbers of amp power its hard to tell which is the better performer... Personally I would prefer to go for any sub that is built or designed to eliminate or cancel any vibration or have movement... both are obviously going to be top performers, but 1 wins out in my mind IMO...
post #230 of 1511
Driver excursion for the Gotham is 4 inches and for the Sub 2 its 3inches. But were looking at six 10inch drivers vs two 13.5 inch drivers.

Gotham g213
Enclosure Type: Sealed, with non-parallel walls
Driver: Twin 13.5 inch (nominal diameter)
Frequency Response: 19 - 200 Hz (3dB)
Effective Piston Area: 214.70 sq. in. / 0.1386 sq. m.
Effective Displacement: 773 cu. in. / 12.7 liters
Amplifier Power: 3800 watts RMS short-term
Dimensions*:
(H) Height x (W) Width x (D) Depth 34.13 in x 21.50 in. x 24.00 in.
867 mm x 546 mm x 610 mm
Net Weight: 360 lbs. / 163 kg
Cabinet Finish: High-Gloss Black
US Retail Price: $12,000.00
NOTES: *Height dimensions include feet.

Signature Sub2
Amplifier: High-Current, Discrete Output 9000 watts Dynamic Peak / 4500 watts RMS Sustained (when connected to a 240-volt outlet.)
Amplifier Design Features Auto-On/Off, Trigger-On/Off, soft clipping, thermal protection, electrical shorting protection
Subwoofer Bass Driver(s) dual advanced spiders, 25.2 lb (10.5 kg) hard ferrite magnet / motor structure, massive center heatsink and oversize pole piece, 76-mm (3 in) 10-layer long-excursion voice coils, FEA-optimized overmolded thermoplastic foam surrounds, high-temperature composite Nomex® formers, Six 254-mm (10 in) mineral-filled RCR™ polypropylene cones, AVS™ die-cast heatsink chassis
Low-Frequency Extension* 7 Hz (DIN)
Subwoofer Cut-Off Frequency Variable 35 Hz - 150 Hz; Bypass Option
Sub. / Sat. Phase Alignment Variable 0° - 180°
Line-Level Input RCA (S/E) Left and Right or Sub-Out / LFE or Balanced XLR. From Sub-Out / LFE-Out of preamp/processor or other line-level source
Line-Level Input Sensitivity 100 mV Mono
Line-Level Input Impedance RCA: 10 k ohms; XLR: 20 k ohms;
Universal Input Power SUB 2's Universal Input Power feature allows the subwoofer to operate connected to any line voltage between 108 volts and 265 volts. In order to achieve maximum output, connect to a 240-volt line. (See dealer for additional information.)
AC Voltage (see note on Universal Input Power) 120v (at 3,000 watts) - 50/60 Hz, 240v (at 4,500 watts) - 50/60 Hz
Accessory Paradigm Perfect Bass Kit™
Diameter of Hexagonal Cabinet 60.4 cm / 23-3/4 in
Height, Width, Depth
(Height includes spikes or outrigger feet) 62.2 cm x 60.4 cm x 57.8 cm
24-1/2 in x 23-3/4 in x 22-3/4 in

Weight (unpacked) 105.7 kg / 233 lb each
Finishes Cherry, Piano Black
post #231 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

Driver excursion for the Gotham is 4 inches and for the Sub 2 its 3inches. But were looking at six 10inch drivers vs two 13.5 inch drivers.

yeah.... I call BS on those numbers.... where are you getting that info - sorry I'm not seeing driver excursion numbers in your posting... give me an xmax number or Xmech for that matter....

4 inches = 101.6 millimeters


Funny - even the best drivers available on the planet can even come close to 1/2 those numbers....

That is all just marketing BS, please don't buy into the hype of what these manufactures claim... they are just not possible...

Here is the spec page from JL Audio on the 13w7 drivers that are used in the F113, and the Gotham.... which states One-Way, Linear Excursion (Xmax)*: 1.25 in. / 32 mm

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_s...p?series_id=10

They may have tweaked the driver for these subs a touch, but they are not 2.75" difference.... come on....

Please people don't live in a fantasy world with what is sold to you on the internet... great subs, but that stuff is just outlandish....
post #232 of 1511
quote from their site " luxurious, handcrafted gloss-black finish is complemented by machined aluminum and stainless steel accents for a look and feel that fits perfectly with the finest home furnishings. More importantly, the beautiful cabinet houses a pair of JL Audio's highest-technology subwoofer drivers. When demanded by program material, the Gotham's amplifier can deliver voltage equivalent to 3,800 watts of RMS power to take full advantage of the twin drivers four inches of peak-to-peak excursion capability. This ensures that the Gotham can breeze through material that makes other subwoofers go into clipping, limiting or distress."

its under Gotham Technologies
post #233 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

quote from their site " luxurious, handcrafted gloss-black finish is complemented by machined aluminum and stainless steel accents for a look and feel that fits perfectly with the finest home furnishings. More importantly, the beautiful cabinet houses a pair of JL Audio's highest-technology subwoofer drivers. When demanded by program material, the Gotham's amplifier can deliver voltage equivalent to 3,800 watts of RMS power to take full advantage of the twin drivers four inches of peak-to-peak excursion capability. This ensures that the Gotham can breeze through material that makes other subwoofers go into clipping, limiting or distress."

its under Gotham Technologies

If you believe that you are living in a fantasy world....

Its all marketing to sell products.... Believe me - I think the Gotham and the Sub 1 & 2 are great products, but those numbers are completely unrealistic..... Tell ya what, ask the pro's in the DIY area what they think of the excursion capabilities of either of these products and see what they say.... it'll be worth a good laugh...
post #234 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

If you believe that you are living in a fantasy world....

Its all marketing to sell products.... Believe me - I think the Gotham and the Sub 1 & 2 are great products, but those numbers are completely unrealistic..... Tell ya what, ask the pro's in the DIY area what they think of the excursion capabilities of either of these products and see what they say.... it'll be worth a good laugh...

Who knows for sure but as long as it sounds and performs how it supposed to then why not. Thanks for ur advice and input, one more question what is meant when thy say 4 layer or 8 layer voice coil? i kinda have an idea
post #235 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Here is the spec page from JL Audio on the 13w7 drivers that are used in the F113, and the Gotham....

Warp, I had thought that the JL rep posted in the JL thread that the driver was not the same as the 13w7.
post #236 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Warp, I had thought that the JL rep posted in the JL thread that the driver was not the same as the 13w7.

They stated that they made some minor adjustments.... probably to tweak the driver for peak performance in its specific box size....
post #237 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

If you believe that you are living in a fantasy world....

Its all marketing to sell products.... Believe me - I think the Gotham and the Sub 1 & 2 are great products, but those numbers are completely unrealistic..... Tell ya what, ask the pro's in the DIY area what they think of the excursion capabilities of either of these products and see what they say.... it'll be worth a good laugh...

So does that make the 30mm (1.1811") claimed peak to peak on your S8's woofers unrealistic as well??? Personally I can't see those woofers having that much excursion capabilities just by looking at the surrounds alone which look small. Being that you own a pair of S8's, do you find those numbers claimed by Paradigm realistic or just marketing hype?
post #238 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiznit View Post

So does that make the 30mm (1.1811") claimed peak to peak on your S8's woofers unrealistic as well??? Personally I can't see those woofers having that much excursion capabilities just by looking at the surrounds alone which look small. Being that you own a pair of S8's, do you find those numbers claimed by Paradigm realistic or just marketing hype?


Exactly - chances are pretty slim that you will get that much travel out of those drivers - but I'll add in one contingency - maybe if they add all the sub drivers up together it may be possible..... they are only 7 1/2" drivers... My woofers on my S8's don't get much of a workout, as I cross them over pretty high, which seems much like a waste, but they basically run as a line array -

Remember that when you say "peak to peak" that is bottoming out the driver to full out excursion stressing out the surrounds beyond their capabilities or "Xmech" - Xmax is generally 10% below xmech, where the drivers will still maintain linearity.

And all the JL subs all have electronic limiters (highpass filters) built in so the drivers don't bottom out - so they will never make those "Peak to Peak" numbers claimed - if they are indeed capable of them to begin with, which I highly doubt.
post #239 of 1511
What are you x-overing at??
post #240 of 1511
120hz - or at least that was the latest, but when my new subs are in - I'll start remeasuring and pick what looks the best...
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