Paradigm Sub 1 and Sub 2 - Page 24

Apparently mine shipped last week.

Reflective objects in the room can significantly reduce the effective contrast ratio of a projector system.

So looking at the picture of the sub 2 with the chart of the output on top of it, it looks like it may say 10 feet for the mic distance but the "1" in the "10" looks like a T to me.... kinda hard to read the chart perfectly.

Anybody know the current msrp for the sub 1? I saw $3500.00 on several reviews but talked with an customer support person at Paradigm just now that told me it was $4999.00 for black. $200 less for cherry.

The MSRP for the SUB 1 was $3499 when it was introduced in October of 2009.

http://www.castercomm.com/prView.cfm?cid=113&id=351

The current pricing is as follows...
Sub 1 $4499 ($4999 in Piano Black)
Sub 2 $8999 ($9499 in Piano Black)

There may be some Sub1s available at a lessor cost since the some of the demos loaned to Sub 2 buyers have now been returned.
If interested I can give you my dealers name (NW Chicago area) as he has the loaner I had for 3 months. It is in pristine condition.

For those asking, John measured the Sub 2 in his testing room for Secrets, and you can find an article with photos (from a few years ago) about the room here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...04-part-1.html

In short, it's 18' x 20' with a ceiling that goes from 6' up to 10' and back down to 6' (most of it is 10' high), and it's acoustically treated. The Sub 2 was running off a single 120V line, though he is planning to get a pair of 240V lines run for the Sub 2's (yes, plural) to see how they test.

Looks like I can get a new one out the door for the old msrp so I think I'll go with that. I'll give you a holler in case it falls thru.

Thanks!

The sub 2 measurement at 20 hz, 110 db and mic 10 feet away from sub 2 at 2.5% distortion is unvelievably good. This is head and toe better than sub 25. They measured sub 25 to be 108 db at 20hz with mic 1 foot away from sub 25 with 10% distortion. Something got be be missing here or misprinted.

So I looked back at the CraigSub list and he did his measurements from 2 meters or approximately 6.5 feet. So the sub 2 measurements were taken from a distance 1.5 times further away as the measurements of the subs listed in CraigSub rankings. I have no idea what the sub 2 would measure if the mic was placed only 6.5 feet (2 meters) away but undoubtedly it'd be more than the already measured 110.5 db. So if the sub 2 was hooked up to a 240 volt line instead of a 120 volt line we can assume the sub 2 would put out 113.5 db from 10 ft, and therefore more than the 113.5 db when using a 240 volt line which the A7-900 was measured as outputting

Unfortunately, objective low-frequency measurements will be nearly impossible in that room. It looks like it has virtually no absorption below 50Hz, let alone at 20Hz. The room's width and length axial modes will be around ~8.5Hz, 17Hz, 25.5Hz, 8.5*n... 9.5Hz, 19Hz, 28.5Hz, 9.5*n... etc. That's excluding height modes.

Accurate low-frequency THD tests should be made in half-space, aka in the middle of a paved (and quiet) parking lot. You may be able to take decent measurements in a very well constructed "anechoic" test chamber, if you have access to something like Paradigm's testing facilities - and even then it's not trivial.

any updates? I am still waiting for my sub2. Anyone else get one yet? Any updates from those lucky ones who have theirs?

I finally watched "Children of Men", a movie picked from my stack of unopened blu-ray "gunfight while holding a baby" genre films that I have (this is the second one starring Clive Owen, the other one is "Shoot Em Up"). The movie has some excellent explosions and gunfire that really caught me by surprise because the SUB 2 sat silent for most of the movie. The more I listen to this sub, the more I am glad I waited for it to arrive. It is really is another league above the SUB 1. The SUB 1 has really low distortion, but the SUB 2 is noticeably better. I find it interesting that when calibrated it sounds like it produces less bass overall, but with more bottom end.

Is that thumping I hear your Sub2 or the sound you are feeling hitting your chest ?

I second that... I was wondering what kind of "tactile feel" the sub 2 produces. So is it sound or feel or both... hopefully both!

It is both but your description of "tactile feel ' is very appropriate.
It is most prevalent with the Sub 2.
Though no pyrotechnics or explosion may have been displayed on screen or during music playback suddenly the room may shake or feel as if a mini explosion or earthquake is occurring or Music Bass lines somehow hit you right in the chest.

A few weeks ago I bought a pair of Buttkickers to provide the tactile sensations I was missing, because I live in a concrete building, and I was missing the sensation of the whole room moving that you get with a floating floor. Last weekend I was giving my parents and aunt a demo at reference level using the "into the Fog" chapter from Master and Commander. I didn't warn them about the transducers attached to the chairs, and it was fun to watch their shocked reactions once the cannons started firing. The next day the boy from next door was visiting to play with my son, and I asked if I was disturbing them with the subwoofer. He said he heard me the previous day and his whole apartment was shaking when the cannons started going off. He said I wasn't bothering them, but I did manage to knock the clock off their wall. Perhaps it is time to look for a house.

A pair of Buttkickers with a Sub 2 ?
You must be intent on punishing the neighbors.
It might be time to turn down the control marked VOLUME before they evict you out on the street.

So you have a sub 2 yet felt compelled to get buttkickers as well?

Not really. It was more of a curiosity than a compulsion. I bought the Buttkickers before the SUB 2 arrived, on the recommendation of Kal Rubinson in another thread I started:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post19108925

My son is six years old and has sensitive ears like all children do; he doesn't like how loud I turn the volume for the movies we watch together (higher than -15dB). The Buttkickers also seemed like a neighbour friendly way to keep the volume at a reasonable level. The Buttkickers give the tactile feel at a fraction of the cost of the SUB 2, and I don't have to run the sub level hot to get the tactile sensation at lower main channel volumes. The SUB 2 can easily produce the tactile feeling at reference volume, but I can't turn it that loud all the time.

I don't want to draw this thread off-topic, but from what I understand, it is the mid-bass frequencies that give tactile bass:

Whole-Body Vibration Associated with Low-Frequency Audio Reproduction Influences Preferred Equalization
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/0...with_7561.html

In response to mbfleming, who bottomed out his 'loaner' Sub 1 during the cave emergence scene in Iron Man:

I finally got around to checking this scene. All speakers (sub included) are Audyssey MultiEQ XT calibrated, in a big (~7000 ft^3) room. I tried at -20, -10, and 0 on the volume. I usually watch movies at -10, which is quite loud. At 0 volume, I turned off the external amps running the speakers to avoid hearing damage, so only the sub was running.

Although dozens of things around the room were rattling (fireplace, sconces, the projector, glasses in the bar, etc), the Sub 1 exhibited no audible distortion/bottoming out/whatever.

In fact, I hooked up my Kill-A-Watt meter to the sub, and the peak power draw from the outlet during this scene was only 350W, despite the absurd bass that felt like it was ripping my house in two. After about six runs through that scene, the plate amp was barely warm. The Sub 1 is capable of pulling about 5 times that power from the outlet, so that was only the tip of the iceberg.

So mbfleming's Sub 1 was either defective, his room EQ ate up all his headroom, or the distortion was coming from something else in the room rattling (rather than the sub itself).

Unless you run your sub WAY above reference level or your theater is in a gymnasium, I don't see how any Blu-Ray film made to date could max out the Sub 1. Just because the Sub 2 is even more powerful, don't discount this beast.

Interesting. I did follow someone's suggestion to remove the PBK settings:



EDIT: Looking back at my old posts, I see I didn't try turning MCACC off. Is it possible that was boosting the EQ and causing the problem? I won't know because I gave the SUB 1 back last weekend, so I can't repeat the tests. Unfortunately my listening position is close to the half-way point of the room's length, which would locate it in a null at some frequencies. I'm glad to hear the-phew was not able to reproduce what I was hearing, so it must have been something I was doing with sub placement, microphone placement and the room correction EQ. Thanks for taking the time to test this.

the_phew I decided to go with the sub 25 based on his experience with the sub 1. I figured with twice as much power I should be safe and I never heard anyone claim to bottom out the sub 25. I'm hoping for the best. I couldn't afford the sub 2.

I don't think you can go wrong with either sub. The Sub 1 is priced right between the Sub 15 and Sub 25, and it probably performs accordingly. I was just drawn to the Sub 1's compact form factor and 'novel' driver arrangement. It does seem to resolve fast bass guitar riffs better than the big 15"+ driver subs I've heard, although I haven't seen any measurements of the Sub 1 to confirm this perceived 'speed'.

Unfortunately I had to purchase without hearing either one but many agree with you. BTW the new MSRP's have gone up in September. I got these prices directly from Paradigm. Piano Black Sub 25 $4700 Piano Black Sub 1 $4999. So as you can see the Sub 1 is now more expensive than the 25.

That's absurd. I paid a little over half that new MSRP back in January for my Sub 1, and thought even that was a bit of a stretch compared to some of the internet direct options. $5k can buy a lot more subwoofage than Paradigm offers with these units.

Agreed.... and I guess this is the reason many go over to the dark side and go DIY. I'm not shooting down these subs - but it certainly makes one think....

Warp, "Cost-effective" isn't exactly the first phrase that comes to mind when your subs are discussed ;-) What did those monsters+their amps cost you, $20k?

Seriously though, I don't think many people considering the Paradigm Reference subs are cross-shopping against the DIY options. Paradigm offers space-efficiency and aesthetics (read: WAF), the weak points of DIY.

I think DIY makes the most sense for those with an acoustically transparent projection screen and the ability to hide their boxy abominations.

Actually, I have about $4k with drivers, box and both amps in each box, I'm comparing cost per output.... so all in $12K - not sure where you got you $20k from, I did my best to work these as inexpensively as I could. I need tremendous output, one of mine roughly = 3-4 times output of a Sub2 . I'd like to think my subs came out nice... Honestly I thought the Sub 1 & 2 are really nice looking, great looking small packages, but I still stand by my statement.

DIY Abominations.... here are just a couple very nice looking DIY projects, all comes down to YOUR imagination and input of work.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1275564&page=2

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...238601&page=11