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Paradigm Sub 1 and Sub 2 - Page 34

post #991 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybobjimbob View Post

Quick udate, ive been emailing Nick and Andrew from tech support so they can possibly establish what the problem is. Ive also been advised not to use the sub as the popping sound before the sub cuts out, could possibly damage the drivers. I hope it hasnt damaged them already .

It's been 4 or 5 days since anyone reported about this problem.

Anyone have any new information ?
post #992 of 1511
I was planning on posting a detailed report today but unfortunately things didn't quite work out the way I planned. I PBK'd both the SUB2's on Tuesday night. Played the opening scene and tunnel scene of Dark Knight and it sounded good and the SUB2 did not trip. I did not have time yesterday to listen to anything music or otherwise to see if I could get it to trip like it has during some scenes in other movies. I was planning on trying that today since my dealer was coming over to demo the system. That way he could witness it first hand.

Before he got here, I decided to upgrade my software in the D2V and run ARC as well so hoping to get a refined and ready system. The updates and ARC went smooth with absolutely no hiccups at all. (Upgraded to v2.10 and downloaded the latest ARC v3.0.1)

Unfortunately the after-results were a different story. The software upgrade seems to have caused multiple issues in my system. The noise floor is extremely loud. Previously on a scale of 1-10 it was a ZERO! Now when I make adjustments to bass and treble while playing a source you can hear a clicking sound while making changes. Lower bass has been completed robbed from my SUB2's. The same scenes that I have been demoing for the last few weeks - Dark Knight, Ironman, certain musical selections all are lacking the low end. In fact during musical playback the subs sound like they are barely on and I had the volume on the SUB2 that has no issues to MAX!! To all the SUB2 owners out there you know just how loud that is. (and my volume on the D2V was at -15!!!!). Let me just say that I never came close to playing source material at those settings before the "software update". It was plenty loud and thumping with the volume knob at the half way indent.

And yes all other settings were the same as previous to the download a I hadn't made any changes since I started using the D2V. One reason being that the entire room is treated so it sounded suprisingly good out of the box.

The one setting that was added that was definitely muting the sound overall as well as the bass was the dolby volume. When I turned that new setting OFF it sounded much better and closer to how it sounded prior to the download but still missing the lower end - on both music and movies.

So needless to say, with the SUB2's playing as if someone robbed them off half their drivers and juice, there was no way I could get the SUB2 to trip to show my friend/dealer what I was referring to.

I am going to see if I can find a way to rollback the software to the original version it came as.

Once I get this issue fixed and can test the SUB2's with a few different source materials I will post an update.

PS. Billyjimbob - did you finally PBK your SUB2 and see if that stopped the tripping? And what software version are yo running on your D2V?
post #993 of 1511
Well I was all exited as I had decided to upgrade my two Paradigm 15" Servos for two Sub 25s, I placed the order and then my dealer called me back and said he would get me two Sub 1s for the same price I was going to pay for the Sub25s, he thought this was a good Idea because I have been complaining about the lack of kick I was getting. He suggested that the two Sub 1s would give me that kick I desire. Anyone have any thoughts on 2 Subs 1s compared to two Sub 25s as the hunt for that kick continues?

John
post #994 of 1511
I tried to compare the displacement and thus maximum sound pressure levels of each of the signature subwoofers earlier in the thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post18653599
post #995 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by studlygoorite View Post

Well I was all exited as I had decided to upgrade my two Paradigm 15" Servos for two Sub 25s, I placed the order and then my dealer called me back and said he would get me two Sub 1s for the same price I was going to pay for the Sub25s, he thought this was a good Idea because I have been complaining about the lack of kick I was getting. He suggested that the two Sub 1s would give me that kick I desire. Anyone have any thoughts on 2 Subs 1s compared to two Sub 25s as the hunt for that kick continues?

John

Do you realize that the MSRP of the Sub 25 is more than the Sub 1? It sounds like your dealer had just come up with a clever plan to pocket more of your cash.

No one to my knowledge has measured the Sub 1 against the Sub 25. I would be extremely interested to see the results. All we have now is speculation based on estimates of xmax/effective cone area.
post #996 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

Do you realize that the MSRP of the Sub 25 is more than the Sub 1? It sounds like your dealer had just come up with a clever plan to pocket more of your cash.

No one to my knowledge has measured the Sub 1 against the Sub 25. I would be extremely interested to see the results. All we have now is speculation based on estimates of xmax/effective cone area.

He was giving me an excellent deal on the Sub 25s so I can't complain. The Sub 1s are on back order but he said he will let me know when it's in and he will do a side by side comparison with me to see which I prefer. I have just read this entire thread and still have no idea which way to go. Guess I'll have to listen to the demo although I would think 12 8" woofers should give me the kick I need.

John
post #997 of 1511
Watched Despicable Me last night. Wow is all I have to say if you have a Sub 2 in the room. The sound was incredible. And the punch and rumbles were some of the best of any movie I have watched yet. Enjoyable movie as well to watch with kids.
post #998 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestewman View Post

It's been 4 or 5 days since anyone reported about this problem.

Anyone have any new information ?

having exchanged a number of emails, i finally spoke to my dealer last thursday. I think someone from Anthem uk will be coming to have a look at my sub2.

I havnt heard from Nick or any of the guys at Paradigm/Anthem in Canada. Im not attempting any pbk'ing or arc as i was advised around a week and a half ago by the engineers at Paradigm not to use the sub.

I know Astral Essence has suggested pbk'ing the sub2, but i really dont think its relevant in relation to the sub cutting out. Any form of eq takes a bit of juice out of the sub, but the sub2 should have no issues straight out of the box. If it did have the tendancy to cut out without eq, im sure it would have been mentioned.

Myself and Astral Essences subwoofer serial numbers are only a sequence of three digits apart. Im not sure if there is anything of relevance in that finding, but its something the subs have in common.
post #999 of 1511
I re-downloaded the D2V v2.10 software from the Anthem website and did a re-upload and it looks to have cured the issues with the processor.

I then replayed the scenes I have been using to demo the theater to see if the low end was back to where it used to be and got it pretty close by toggling a few settings. Namely Dolby volume and ARC were robbing me of the low end experience so I shut them off. The other setting that had been switched due to the software upgrade was that my mains were set to large so low end frequencies were not being rerouted to the subs. Once these adjustments were made, things started to sound better but the subs still did not have that earth shaking impact to them.

Step 2: I erased the PBK EQ setting from one sub so I could do an A/B comparison and see if PBK was the culprit. Voila!! Lets just say the difference was night and day!!! The PBK'd SUB2 had no earth shattering effect, while the SUB2 that I had just erased the PBK EQ from shook the floor and provided the mind blowing experience one would expect out of a $9500 sub.

Once I realized that it was the PBK that was robbing me of the low end experience, I deleted the EQ out of the second SUB2 as well.

Result: I was able to trip both SUB2's into protect mode playing the Dark Knight. Not just the SUB2 that had given me problems but the other one as well. (For those that have been watching/reading the earlier posts, that is the one that was PBK'd at my dealer and would explain why it never tripped at my house until now).

Bottom line: Without PBK, both SUB2's trip when playing very low bass passages at moderately loud volumes. 30Hz and below I suspect.

For the others that have a SUB2 and a D2V, I would be interested to know if you could get your SUB2 to go into protection should you delete the PBK'd EQ and play some movie scenes at high volumes. As a baseline, for example when I demo Dark Knight, I have the volume on the D2V at -15, DolbyTrueHD, my internal level calibrations for all speakers including the subs are set to 0, my MAIN Bass is set to +3.0 and my SUB level including all other speakers levels which are toggled using the buttons on the front of the processor (eg. MAIN, Center, Surr, Sub) are set to 0. The volume on the back of the subs are set to the HALF way indent and the crossover is bypassed and set to 80Hz using the D2V.

With those settings above there is NO WAY a $9500 sub should be going into protect mode. I am not even pushing the limit volume wise. All settings on the D2V are at ZERO!!! and the volume on the SUB is at HALF. I think this is ridiculous and reinforces Billybobjimbob point that something is off, because the subs should not be tripping whether you run PBK or not. As advertised as the worlds most powerful subwoofer, they should be able to handle the full gamut of frequencies without a hitch, not just the limited bandwidth that and after-PBK EQ provides.

Let me know how it goes Asif with the Anthem visit as I am going to be working with my dealer as well to get a resolution. It would hold even more power if we can get someone else to get their SUB2 to trip following the above......MBFLEMING?? what say brother? :-)

PS. If anyone on this thread is going to be down in the San Diego area and would like to hear what these puppies sound like, send me a PM and we'll see what we can arrange.

AE
post #1000 of 1511
Additional info: Both SUB2's are connected to 240V lines and have had well over 40 hours of break in time - music and movies.
post #1001 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by astral_essence View Post

Additional info: Both SUB2's are connected to 240V lines and have had well over 40 hours of break in time - music and movies.

Hmmm... Maybe it's some kind of voltage issue. Have you tried them on a standard 120V line?

Is everyone else experiencing this issue also using the 240V option?


EDIT:

After a bit of quick digging, from what I can tell, those experiencing this issue are using the 240V option. This could explain why so few are reporting this issue. Try them on a 120V line and see what happens...
post #1002 of 1511
I can't run mine at the detent position, because Pioneer's MCACC complains that is too high. I've watched dozens of movies using my sub, and I have never had it go into a protection mode. I've got it connected to a 120v 15 amp circuit that is shared with all the other electronics that run my theatre. I noticed all the people having problems are running 240v. If I had access to a 240v circuit I would try it out, to see if I could reproduce the problem.

While I was waiting for my sub to be built, my dealer said in August the amplifiers pass through a burn in test of several days, so I would have expected them to fail at that time if they were defective.

The fact that you reproduced the problem in the other sub by removing the PBK is a significant clue, because that should have increased headroom, not reduce it.



post #1003 of 1511
When BRAC visited me for a demo, we played War of the Worlds, and he can attest I didn't spare it any volume. I've pushed it pretty hard without it tripping.
post #1004 of 1511
Earlier this year I was playing with a SUB 1 connected to a power meter. This device would tell you if there was a voltage sag on your circuit during use. It can record all kinds of useful information about line voltage, current and frequency. I bought mine at Fry's Electronics in the City of Industry. Astral_essence, you could swing by the Fry's on Aero Drive in San Diego to pick one up to try it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

Here is a graph showing the maximum watts drawn by the SUB 1 while watching the movie Hot Fuzz. Each column represents approximately 30 seconds of time. The height of the column represents the maximum watts during that interval. Interestingly the sub bottomed out several times during the movie which has very heavy bass, without using the full power of the amplifier. The measurements were made using a Watts up? PRO ES power meter.


It's too late in the day to run some tests on mine without pissing off my neighbors, so I will post some graphs tomorrow.
post #1005 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

When BRAC visited me for a demo, we played War of the Worlds, and he can attest I didn't spare it any volume. I've pushed it pretty hard without it tripping.

We gave it a good solid workout. That WOW demo would have sent many folks running for the exit.

My money is on 240V having something to do with it...
post #1006 of 1511
I shouldn't make any wild guesses about what is wrong, but I will point out the following post where Nick has indicated the sub's DSP has direct control over how much power is drawn from the mains power circuit. Hopefully the problem you guys are having can be corrected by new firmware.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

As Randall mentioned I got to know the model quite well through testing its software, then setting up and using multiple Sub 25s in the factory's theater. I'm also familiar with the lineage beginning with the Servo 15 v1. Some clarifications regarding this thread:

Residential 120V circuits are almost always 15A or 20A and with that the Sub 25 amp can deliver 3000W to the voice coil's minimum impedance for a few seconds. After that the DSP lowers output so a dedicated 15A breaker doesn't trip. This intentional characteristic was modeled within a 15A breaker's time constant. With 208V or higher the Sub 25 can put out 3000W continuously. In North America 240V circuits and receptacles are used with window air conditioners and pumps. Converting a dedicated 3-conductor 120V (non-Edison) circuit to 240V is a minor operation, with a receptacle change and 2-pole breaker instead of single-pole (15A or 20A according to wire gauge, or typically 10A in 240V countries). If the outlet to be converted is not a dedicated circuit, it has to be turned into one - contact a licensed electrician. 240V is really not needed. With the bassiest music track that we use for testing subs, average consumption through the track is 800W if level is set so its peaks are at 3000W. This doesn't trip a dedicated 120V 15A circuit, and this is synthesized bass that is practically a sine wave.

With 208V or more the Sub 25 amp can actually put out 4500W but since the cone can't use it the sub is rated at 3000W, not 4500W. This is the opposite of how some other manufacturers rate their subs when amp power exceeds driver rating. Also, the Sub 25 power figures are real measured continuous watts, not "equivalent" power that some manufacturers quote based on amp performance with a lighter load - it's like saying a small car that goes 60 mph (100 km/h) uphill has an engine that puts out 500 HP when a 10 ton trailer is pulled.

----------

Another factor in getting all this power is active power factor correction, which changes PF from around 0.65 to 0.99. All power supplies have poor power factor. Lower cost passive correction can take it up to about 0.85. Power factor represents the phase difference between AC voltage and current. The lower this is, the lower the real power because current can only flow while the voltage cycle peaks, resulting in a spiky current cycle instead of a sinusoidal one.

----------

When on but with no input signal the Sub consumes 26W. If this seems low for a 3 kW amp remember that it's a class D amp with a switching power supply. When it's playing, consumption depends on how loud it's playing. When in standby mode the consumption was too low for the meter I used - probably well under a watt.

----------

Due to high voltage inside a permanent grill was indeed needed to pass safety regulations. The certifications body later recognized that people aren't normally going to push things through the cone but what's done is done.

-----------

The SPL figures below are from anechoic measurements. For in-room response add 3 dB per nearby boundary, so if the sub is in a corner add 9 dB to all the numbers (that's where the data sheet's 125 dB of clean in-room bass comes from).

The Sub 25 puts out 9 Hz cleanly up to around 89 dB - after that it's limited by the DSP. We could make it go louder but it won't be clean. This is still better than not having 9 Hz response at all, and it's not like some manufacturers who say that if you input 8 Hz you'll get 120 dB out when what they're not saying is that it's loaded with distortion and/or containing no fundamental tone to speak of. From 17 Hz and up Sub 25 output is linear up to 108 dB. Beyond that the DSP rolls off the deepest bass off and the remainder goes up to 116 dB cleanly.

--------------

A proper setup and good source material says the rest.

Incidentally if you're using ARC, PBK usually isn't needed regardless of the number of subs (the greater the number, the more even the pressure around the room - it self-corrects). Just remember that when using multiple subs they must be balanced to one another before running ARC. This can be done by setting them individually to a reference SPL - usually below 70 dB each to account for the other subs - or by adjusting levels so peaks and nulls at the listening position set up by one sub are complemented by the other(s).

NOTE1: Subwoofer correction such as PBK only accounts for one sub at a time. The overall response is different when all subs play together, so overall correction in a pre-pro, such as ARC, must be run in a multi-sub setup after each sub has been individually corrected.

NOTE2: **Results can still be better if each sub in a multi-sub setup is PBK'd before running ARC. The only way to find by how much is to try both ways.

For more info the quickest way to reach me is to e-mail tech at anthemav dot com.
post #1007 of 1511
I've been reading this thread with some interest as I've owned a sub2 for quite some time (August 2010) and haven't experienced any cutout issues thus far. I thought some info gained from personal experience might be of use to others however.

For the first two months I ran the sub, it wasn't PBKed - more recently however, it's been both PBKed and ARCed. No cutouts in the first two months, no cutouts afterward.

I noticed that some discussion has popped up around it being a 240v issue. I'm not saying it's impossible - but I'm also running it via 240v, same as billybobjimbob - we're both in the UK and we only have the option of 240v here! In other words, if 240v is the issue then paradigm are going to have a lot more upset european customers...

The other thing maybe worth commenting on is Astral_Essence's experience of ARC killing off his low-end frequency response. It might simply be nothing more than the ARC settings being incorrect.

My apologies of course if you've already tried this - but a few new settings appeared in the recent version of the ARC software.

Specifically, try changing the sub HPF from auto to flat - so that it doesn't squash the under 20hz range.
post #1008 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfield19 View Post

I've been reading this thread with some interest as I've owned a sub2 for quite some time (August 2010) and haven't experienced any cutout issues thus far. I thought some info gained from personal experience might be of use to others however.

For the first two months I ran the sub, it wasn't PBKed - more recently however, it's been both PBKed and ARCed. No cutouts in the first two months, no cutouts afterward.

I noticed that some discussion has popped up around it being a 240v issue. I'm not saying it's impossible - but I'm also running it via 240v, same as billybobjimbob - we're both in the UK and we only have the option of 240v here! In other words, if 240v is the issue then paradigm are going to have a lot more upset european customers...

The other thing maybe worth commenting on is Astral_Essence's experience of ARC killing off his low-end frequency response. It might simply be nothing more than the ARC settings being incorrect.

My apologies of course if you've already tried this - but a few new settings appeared in the recent version of the ARC software.

Specifically, try changing the sub HPF from auto to flat - so that it doesn't squash the under 20hz range.

OK, well, I guess trying a 120V line is out for those guys. Hopefully, Paradigm can fix this issue asap...
post #1009 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

When BRAC visited me for a demo, we played War of the Worlds, and he can attest I didn't spare it any volume. I've pushed it pretty hard without it tripping.

You won't know until you get some real power behind your Signatures! I would hope to hell that your SUB 2 doesn't go into protection mode and can keep up with your 100 watt receiver powering your S8/C5/ADP combo! But from what I recall BRAC mentioned that he heard your SUB 2 bottoming or making strange noises?
post #1010 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiznit View Post
You won't know until you get some real power behind your Signatures! I would hope to hell that your SUB 2 doesn't go into protection mode and can keep up with your 100 watt receiver powering your S8/C5/ADP combo! But from what I recall BRAC mentioned that he heard your SUB 2 bottoming or making strange noises?
We both heard it distort a couple times. I thought it was possibly one or more of the drivers hitting their mechanical limits. And, I will let mbfleming speak on what he thought it was. I'm fairly confident that it was NOT entering protection mode.

To further clarify, we were pushing his Sub 2 very hard. I don't think many people can handle that type of volume for more than a few minutes at a time. I know mbfleming had to turn it down at one point during WOW, because he simply couldn't take the pressure any longer. I was OK...
post #1011 of 1511
BRAC and I only heard the distortion on the THX Amazing Life crescendo. I couldn't bottom it out on the WOW pod scene; I tapped out before the sub did because my ears were starting to hurt. It's really hard to tell by listening if distortion is caused by electrical or mechanical limitations. We were running the sub from the kitchen electrical circuit using a heavy extension cord, so the sub had lots of power available when it distorted. I think there are some subsonic frequencies in Amazing Life that were asking too much of the SUB 2.

I would really like to know more about the features and benefits of Paradigm's Kilomax amplifier platform, specifically what DSP processing is being done to optimize available power-like power factor correction-and whether the DSP protects of the drivers from mechanical damage by limiting output. More details about the types of distortions the Perfect Bass Kit are able to compensate for would be appreciated too.
post #1012 of 1511
For the record I also have had a Sub 2 since Aug/Sept 2010 and I am also using a 240volt line. I started using it with a Lexicon MC12 but have since changed to the D2V a few weeks ago and I have had no issues whatsoever.
post #1013 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

BRAC and I only heard the distortion on the THX Amazing Life crescendo.

Actually, I heard the same thing happen during the lightning strikes in WOTW, the segment just before the pods emerge.
post #1014 of 1511
[quote=mbfleming;20000860]Earlier this year I was playing with a SUB 1 connected to a power meter. This device would tell you if there was a voltage sag on your circuit during use. It can record all kinds of useful information about line voltage, current and frequency. I bought mine at Fry's Electronics in the City of Industry. Astral_essence, you could swing by the Fry's on Aero Drive in San Diego to pick one up to try it out.

Thanks for the heads up. I will see if my dealer can come down here and run the tests with their power meter so I don't have to shell out the $190 for something I would use once or twice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rfield19 View Post

I've been reading this thread with some interest as I've owned a sub2 for quite some time (August 2010) and haven't experienced any cutout issues thus far. I thought some info gained from personal experience might be of use to others however.

For the first two months I ran the sub, it wasn't PBKed - more recently however, it's been both PBKed and ARCed. No cutouts in the first two months, no cutouts afterward.

I noticed that some discussion has popped up around it being a 240v issue. I'm not saying it's impossible - but I'm also running it via 240v, same as billybobjimbob - we're both in the UK and we only have the option of 240v here! In other words, if 240v is the issue then paradigm are going to have a lot more upset european customers...

The other thing maybe worth commenting on is Astral_Essence's experience of ARC killing off his low-end frequency response. It might simply be nothing more than the ARC settings being incorrect.

My apologies of course if you've already tried this - but a few new settings appeared in the recent version of the ARC software.

Specifically, try changing the sub HPF from auto to flat - so that it doesn't squash the under 20hz range.

Thanks rfield. I'll try that and see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigman View Post

For the record I also have had a Sub 2 since Aug/Sept 2010 and I am also using a 240volt line. I started using it with a Lexicon MC12 but have since changed to the D2V a few weeks ago and I have had no issues whatsoever.

Rigman, since you have a D2V and SUB2 can you mimic teh settings I posted above and play the Dark Knight at that volume to see if you can get it to trip?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post

We gave it a good solid workout. That WOW demo would have sent many folks running for the exit.

My money is on 240V having something to do with it...

Well if either you or MBFleming are back down in sunny san diego again, let me know and I'll try to send both of you running for the exit.
post #1015 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

More details about the types of distortions the Perfect Bass Kit are able to compensate for would be appreciated too.

Easy answer there: PBK doesn't do anything about distortion, it is just parametric EQ.
post #1016 of 1511
Is that all it is? Is there no secret ingredient, special sauce, or secret formula that Paradigm keeps locked in a vault (or anechoic chamber) that works better than anyone else's room correction?
post #1017 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

Is that all it is? Is there no secret ingredient, special sauce, or secret formula that Paradigm keeps locked in a vault (or anechoic chamber) that works better than anyone else’s room correction?

The first thing PBK does is to average all measurements (and apply the mic-specific calibration curve), so if you take multiple measurements around the room, one particular spot is less likely to dominate the results. I read this from an ARC rep, but I can't remember where.

The secret sauce is in choosing how many knobs (parameters) to use, and what settings to apply to those knobs. That part of PBK is a black-box, as is the included microphone calibration file. Regardless of how complex that black box is, however, it is still just an equalization curve that gets applied to the input signal before it hits the amplifier power stage. On top of this, they may (and do) modify the signal with the DSP.
post #1018 of 1511
I Also have the sub2 and run it off a 240v line. Never had any problems.
post #1019 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by studlygoorite View Post

Well I was all exited as I had decided to upgrade my two Paradigm 15" Servos for two Sub 25s, I placed the order and then my dealer called me back and said he would get me two Sub 1s for the same price I was going to pay for the Sub25s, he thought this was a good Idea because I have been complaining about the lack of kick I was getting. He suggested that the two Sub 1s would give me that kick I desire. Anyone have any thoughts on 2 Subs 1s compared to two Sub 25s as the hunt for that kick continues?

John

The saga continues;

Now my dealer, after conversing with his Paradigm Rep, have come to the conclusion that one Sub 2 will knock my socks off compared to two Sub 1s. Any thoughts people, remember that I love my music very loud and need that kick to the chest?

Plus, I can get a nice deal!

John
post #1020 of 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by studlygoorite View Post

The saga continues;

Now my dealer, after conversing with his Paradigm Rep, have come to the conclusion that one Sub 2 will knock my socks off compared to two Sub 1s. Any thoughts people, remember that I love my music very loud and need that kick to the chest?

Plus, I can get a nice deal!

John



Are you getting this/these from EHR?
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