Official Epson Home Cinema 8500UB thread! - Page 2

I am interested in the gaming lag on the 8500 compared to the 4000.

The other AE4000 is rated for 2000 hours, not sure where you're getting 1000? (potentially it would work for more than that, it doesn't explode at 2k) This is a conservative rating designed to deep your picture looking fresh, bulbs will decrease in value over time and their bulbs are nowhere near $550 USD today! The differences on these pjs is being blown WAY out of proportion...if you use you pj ALL THE TIME, it might make you a $100 difference every few years, assuming you don't upgrade before that.

I am on the fence....but leaning toward getting the Epson 8500UB. Other projectors in consideration are

Sony VPL HW-15
Panasonic AE4000
Mitsubishi HC6800

My struggle is that I really want the most "film-like" projector that I can get. "Pop and Wow" are fine, but is the image film-like. I don't want artificially driven colors or overly sharpened images. I want a digital projector that doesn't look "digital". I want to feel as if I am at the movies. I see all sorts of reviews that describe the Epson as having "Pop and Wow" and "Punch". Then I read reviews of the sony describing it as "more elegant" (projectorreviews.com) and a review of the previous Sony model (hw-10) as "very film-like quality" (hometheatermag.com). I really haven't read anything on the Epson describing it as "film-like" which makes me nervous. The one thing that is reassuring me is the fact that the new Epson 8500UB is THX certified, which would lead me to believe that this new generation of Epson is indeed more "film-like".

What I like about the Epson 8500UB reviews are 1) THX certified 2) Best Black Levels 3) Very Bright in brightest mode. 4) Warranty 5) Lamplife of 4000 hours

While the primary use for this proj will be movies on Blu-ray, I will also use it to watch sports and some TV in ambient light situations, which is why the brightness is appealing. Bottom line is the image on Blu-Ray movies though --- I will trade everything else for that, though the projector must have at least a respectable image in ambiant light situations. I was able to Demo the previous Epson 6500 and it held up very well in ambient light. Unfortunately the showroom that I saw it in did not have blackout capability so I was not able to see it in perfect dark conditions. So I can't comment on it in that regard.

I am pretty sure I will get the Epson....but can't help but wonder if it is the most film-like of the 3 listed above. I doubt I will ever get to see them all....so I will probably just have to take the plunge.

Anyone have any thoughts on which is the most film-like projector?

I'm also considering the 8500UB as well as the Mits HC6800 - I'm glad I've at least got it down to two pj's ( far too many choices ) I had a 6500UB which I just sold for a great price, but I'm not sure if I want to go with Epson again. I liked the pic, but it was definitely not one I would consider film-like. I very much like a sharp pic, but there was something a touch harsh/noisy with the Epson. I'm leaning towards the HC6800 (even though I LOVED the CFI on the Epson -Great feature) There are always trade-offs. From what I've read so far the Mits seems to be sharp, smooth and detailed - all things I'm looking for. AND, I could do a 2:35 set up! Now that would be SWEET for movies!

For the most film like you probably want the HW15. I have occasionally used the AE3000 which should not be that much different from the AE4000. AE3000 did have a gorgeous image but not as "elegant" as the VW60. I am not sure what it is with the SXRD tech, it may have been the smooth motion or the clarity of images. But these 2 advantages may have been nullified by the enhancement to CFI and new sharpening algorithms on AE4000 and 8500.
I think if you like the 6500 you can not go wrong with the 8500. Since you have some ambient light in your viewing environment, the film like images on HW15 may not come though as well as it should be.
8500 is highly demanded so I think you shall have no problem selling with a small loss if you end up no liking it or want to trade it in for HW15.

You may be able to reduce the input lag using VGA in. There should be a lot less process for the VGA vs component or HDMI signals.

Will this Chief mount work with the 8500UB?

I have a complete light controlled room and love movies, but I also want to be able to watch tv and football with the lights on as well. Can I still get a good color balanced picture with the lights on using this projector and have it not look washed out? I am coming from a sanyo z2000. I have a plasma in the other room and I would like to be able to get my picture at least close to that image with the light on a bit. The sanyo just seems too dim to be able to compete and always looks flat and washed out with the lights on. Am I asking too much for a projector to be able to do this?

Yes.

What are you talking about? I don't have an AE4000. I'm upgrading from an Infocus who's bulbs cost $550 and I'm lucky to get 1000 hours on each bulb. Isn't an AE4000 a Panasonic?

The response to your post did seem a bit confused. And we do know that some lamps used in the past 4-5 years reduce in lumens at a rapid rate. One from, it would seem, a company not keeping up with the competition of late, was notorious for a 50% reduction after IIRC only 300-500 hours. With a lamp that was very expensive. Other than that a great pj in it's time. I am not referring to any Infocus units.

But I'm curious, at 1000 hours was your Infocus lamp just too dim, not enough output for your screen size/type and ambient light conditions, or did they die ?

Would seem to me that there is not enough discussion on AVS in all the pj threads about lamp dimming and potential long term ownership costs.

In my case with a BenQ 7700 it has been an interesting experience. Lamp failures when the unit was new. Lamp redesign, FW updates and final stable use. Even at 2000 hours on a 133" Da-Lite HP screen not bad. Approaching 2400 hours, things are getting dim at more than a simple arithmetic rate.

The Manufacturers ratings of 3000 or 4000 hours are probably unrealistic.

Remember before we had RMS ratings for amps?

Joe

I know this is a newbie question but i'm totally new to projectors and am really considering this when it comes out later this week. What is the "optimal" screen size for this projector? How far back should the throw distance be? I looked at the Epson site and it gives me a calculator, but I input my own numbers so it doesn't help. Thanks

No, I never even noticed any dimness from start to finish, the bulbs would just die.

Welcome to AVS!!

There is no optimal screen size. It depends on your room and desires.

Throw distance is a range using the lens zoom from closest position to the screen to farthest for a given screen size.

What are you planning on in terms of screen size and Projector placement? The 8500 will most likely work.

Joe

Ok, so I was originally thinking of getting a 100" screen but now I'm thinking 120". It feels natural to me that the bigger the screen size is the lower the quality the picture will be. If that is the case I will stick to 100" otherwise 120" would be ideal. I believe the room is long enough (20 feet). Thanks

And Infocus did not address this problem? I have no experience with their products but 1000 hours to failure must be a record.

Unless they had a problem like BenQ with the 7700 and did not fix it. Toshiba with their 7700 clone left people high and dry and got out of the pj game.

So back on topic.

Anyone concerned about the reports over on the Epson 6500 thread about continuing and relatively new problems?

Even after all the "fun" I've had with my BenQ 7700 I may just re-enlist with a W6000. No convergence issues with DLP not to mention the LCD panels other long term possibilities.

Joe

From about 13' my 720p pj looks fine on a 133" screen. At 1080p it will look better.

Bigger is always better. If it fits go for the 120".

Joe

Ed_T,

Well, at night it will be black out conditions with dark walls and dark ceiling above the screen. 95% of movie viewing will be under these conditions. The ambient light situation is for casual TV watching and sports during the day. Overall that would only amount to about 25% of my total viewing time on the projector. Even then, I am considering getting some blackout shades which should reduce light greatly when I need to.

It's so frustrating....One minute I think I will get the Epson, the next I am almost sure I will get the Sony. Then I go back to the Panasonic AE4000 and back again to the Epson. Problem solved if I could see these projectors for myself in dark conditions. I mean, projectors are now pretty popular items. Why isn't anyone properly demonstrating them? I guess it is too time consuming and takes up too much space.

There use to be a company in Santa Monica that had several theater rooms that would demo projectors. I can't remember their name, but I bought my Standard Def Optoma from them 4 years ago. I actually chose 2 projectors - An Optoma and Infocus - and they set them up to do a comparison. That's customer service!!! They even showed me a 3rd projector, but I don't remember what brand. I bought my whole setup from them - ceiling mount, projector, and screen. They went out of business unfortunately.

If anyone knows of a place in the Los Angeles vicinity to get demo's of mid-priced projectors please let me know.

Oh wow! I just noticed that the Epson 8500UB does not have 1080p/24hz capabilities. Now....I am not 100% sure what this means, but when reading a review of the OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray player it said:

"True 24p Video - Many Blu-ray Discs are recorded at 24 frames per second, the same frame rate as the original movie's theatrical release. The BDP-83 can faithfully redeliver the original frames using 1080p 24Hz output (compatible display required) for smoother motion and a flicker-free, film-like home theater experience. It can also restore the original 24 frames per second progressive-scan video from well-authored DVDs and output as 1080p 24Hz."

Under the specs at projectorcentral, it only lists 1080p/60. Can someone explain what this means? Does this mean that the Epson can't do true progressive 24 fps?

Where did you see this?

At projectorcentral's spec page:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epso...ma_8500_UB.htm

And further detailed reading of the review on Projectorreviews:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...specifications

I think it does basically. It can take 24p and display it at 96p by just showing the same frame 4 times (no frame interpolation enabled) from what I understand, which is basically what you are looking for there. It might even be in that review on projectorreviews as 4:4 or in the 6500 review from last year.

--Darin

I have 3 questions!
1.) How will this projector perform on a 135" white 1.1 gain screen? The room will be dark. Here is a link to the screen I'm thinking of getting: VApex Screen
2.) What is the optimal throw distance for that size (135" screen)? I have calculated it myself but it seems like the throw distance range is too big. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will answer my questions.
3.) Will I lose quality in the picture if I go with a 135" as opposed to, let's say a 100"?
My my experience with overhead projectors in classrooms. It seems the further the projector was pulled back, the bigger the image got but decreased in image quality (brightness, contrast, etc). Is that true for this projector?
Thanks

The 8500 does 24fps input fine, the 1080p/60 is the max. Look at all the reviews and it lists how it handles 24fps content from bluray. It even states that the epson is the only projector that displays 24fps at 120hz instead of everyone else's 96hz, and for HDNET users it converts the film back to 24fps before processing, everyone else just doubles the frames fro 60hz to 120hz.

The PDF info sheet over at Projector People specifically says it handles 24fps Blu ray content...

Help me out....I am not seeing this anywhere. I just see projectorcentrals specs which only lists:

PROJECTOR CENTRAL
HDTV: 720p, 1080i, 1080p/60
576i, 576p
EDTV/480p: Yes
SDTV/480i: Yes
Component Video: Yes
Video: Yes
Digital Input: HDMI
Computers: Yes

PROJECTOR PEOPLE (which didn't specify hz)
Data Signals Native: 1080P PC Compatible
Video Signals DTV: 480i, 576i, 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p NTSC, NTSC4.43, PAL-M, PAL-N, PAL, PAL60, SECAM

rprice54 and Nightanole
Do you have a link to the online pdf? or to how this projector handles content that is 1080p/24?


EDIT -----

OK...I did find some info out on Epson's 7500 from the website at Epson...apparently they do not have the 8500 up yet. It states:

FineFrame interpolation processing technology
Film is encoded on Blu-ray at 24 frames per second. FineFrame deconstructs
and reconstructs these sources for a 1080p frame rate output of up to
120 Hz, virtually eliminating flicker and frame-to-frame judder. The 4:4 pulldown
function also makes corrections for improperly encoded sources, and features
a reverse 2:3 pulldown detection and correction function.

If I understand this correctly they are taking 24frames and making it 120 (5x24) to help eliminate some of the jutter that is inherent in the film source material. Is that correct?

Click Here

Look for the manufacturer spec sheet, first link.

Thanks --- got it!

Wonder why they did not include that in the specs at projector central.....

So....my questions is though, when showing the content at 96hz 1) does that conversion process introduce additional artifacts 2) The "judder" that it eliminating - is that inherent in the source material --- is it eliminating judder that was in the film print that was shown at the theater?

My concern is I want my image to look however it looked in the theater...if the film had judder in the theater, then I want it that way on my system at home. Not sure if I am making sense.

I guess I am just leary because it doesn't say 24p. Perhaps it is better than 24p. But sometimes better can be in the eye of the beholder. Like some of the "color enhancers" or CFI (creative frame interpolation). These tools creatively interpret the source material. I want the closest I can get to the source material. I guess I am not sure, because I don't understand what the difference is between 24hz and 96hz. Is it just showing each individual frame 4 times or is it interpreting in-between frames?

If you turn off FI then it will just double shutter 24fps to 48 fps just like real theaters do, and dlp units that can slow down the color wheel to 48hz. So yes these are all options that you can turn off. I think only like 3-4 projectors even have FI so your safe.

Yes the jutter is inherent to the 24fps source aka film print. You also have 3 levels to get rid of jutter, so you dont have to go all out and get the "soap opera" effect.

No your worse off. it shows 4 frames, one of which is the original, the others are interpreted. If you turn it off you will only get the original 24fps content.

#3. Buy the projector and shoot it on a white wall at 100" and then zoom it out to 135"...do you like what you see? (if it loses too much brightness, buy a higher gain screen). A pj image will generally look OK up to a cerain point and then dimish...that point is usually between 100-135 (just an estimate) but I think your image will definitely lose some punch.