The future! When will there be a pre amplifier/blu-ray/dvr!?!?

hopefully never...

i cant imagine it ever working right.

IMO, htpcs and receivers dont mix. it would be HUGE and i would image it would get hot as hell...

let the audio guys do audio and the the pc guys make pc parts...

i dont mind have two audio and video separate.

I respectfully disagree with your assertions for the following reasons:

1: I currently own MSI's DIVA (5 ch amp + RCA sub out) and to my ears, it sounds at least as good as the two Onkyo receivers I have in house (a 705 and 607).
2: I don't necessarilly think the case needs to be huge, though I will admit the case I use for my DIVA is large (Antec Fusion Max). However, I made a conscious choice to use the Fusion Max because I simply like having a lot of room to work with within a case.
3: My DIVA system uses an AMD 4850e 45W CPU passively cooled with a Scythe Mini-Ninja HS, with average temperature around 45C. It has never exceeded 50C under load. The video is an IGP with its own HS. The amp card also uses a HS sans fan so the only fan I use in my system is a low speed 120mm unit at the rear which draws heat from the CPU HS. Thus, my system is essentially silent and does not get hot at all, yet has more than adequate processing power for typcial HTPC functions.

But let's say for argument sake that to use an amplified system like mine one has to use a large case like the Antec Fusion Max. I could counter with the argument that because you don't need a separate CD/DVD player (and possibly TV tuner/DVR depending on one's programming needs), my Fusion Max is no larger-and quite possibly smaller in total-than the separate components one would require with consumer electronics to provide equivilent media functionallity. Note that we haven't even discussed cable clutter from external components yet.

Indeed, the only reason I have not replaced both Onkyos with DIVAs is due to a key feature missing from the DIVA: It can't accept or process MC PCM or more importantly, Dolby Digital 5.1 from external sources (preferably via HDMI for audio and video). This feature is key because many users (myself included) will insist on MC playback from gaming consoles and TV tuners/DVRs. Some good news on this front is that early next year, digital cable tuners are due to become available that will allow Windows 7 HTPCs (amplified or not) to serve as cable DVR replacements, including encrypted channels. However, fully functional HDMI inputs are still required for the gaming consoles and satellite tuners if the DIVA is to serve as a complete AV receiver replacement.

MSI also released a 7.1 prepro card that from what I've read within AVS works pretty well, but does have an issue with flawed mapping of surround signals to the card's RCA outputs. Further, the lack of HDMI inputs applies to it as well.

In summary, MSI almost provided what the OP requested. IMO, the MSI DIVA systems show great promise, but definitely require refinement. At this point, I believe it is a race to see who will deliver the ultimate HTPC-like experience first: Consumer products with HTPC functionality, or HTPCs that provide consumer product reliability and features. Both camps have the technology to do so, it's simply a question of who will step up to the plate first.

Personally, I'd prefer the HTPC-based solution due to its inherent modularity in hardware and software, more open platform (espeically for "Wintel" systems), and as a result of the preceding factors, lower relative cost for the consumer.

Eric

Short answer, don't hold your breath.

Somewhat longer answer for something like that, you should probably watch Bose, they'd probably be one of the first OEMs to try and market an all-in-one solution (but it won't run off windows)

-Suntan

You're probably correct about Bose. They'll sell any piece of crap that will net them a profit at the expense of realistic sound reproduction.

FYI - separate components will always yield better sound quality than an all-in-one solution. The main reason is that it allows each section of the audio chain to have it's own dedicated power supply. Different components have different power demands. Sharing a power amp with a Blu-Ray drive would create an extreme imbalance on the PSU. Throw in the huge power requirements of a PC and the power supply would probably have to be massive.

Nothing says you can't have two separate power supplies in the enclosure. That said, I too would put down wagers that, for the same money, buying separates in this situation will always yield better quality than buying some Bose or other oem BR-in-a-box setup.

-Suntan

If you can really truly consolidate EVERYTHING into 1 box.

Then you can do it with the AMD Maui platform right now.

The second you want to add anything else (gaming console, ect...), you're f'd and I wouldn't expect AVR style audio/video switching coming to the PC in the next 5 years.

Everything you have said has been said many times over in the years past (just exchange Blu Ray with DVD.) Do some searching through the backlogs and you will see multiple threads about it. Including more than one or two threads from "startups" that were "just weeks away" from offering Windows based "Pre/Pros" that were going to be nirvana for audio/videophiles... Guess what, nothing has ever materialized.

As I said, don't hold your breath.

-Suntan

The obstacle is software. Not the hardware. We're still a good 10 years away untill general computing hardware starts to converge. XBMC + Xbox or XBMC + ion is a taste of things to come.

There are already bookshelf systems that tie almost every aspect of a home theater system in a single chassis. From past experience, these tend to be essentially starter systems and are usually positioned at the low end of the quality scale. When you start to go up the food chain to better quality gear, that's when you start finding them split out into separate components.

There's no guarantee that buying an all-in-one solution will yield you the best bang for your buck. Manufacturers are notorious for scrimping in certain areas to save a buck or two. Open up one of the bookshelf systems and you'll see what absolute pieces of crap they are. You may get a system that has a decent preamp (highly unlikely at the low end), only to find that they tossed in a cheap Blu-Ray transport as an afterthought (most bookshelf DVD systems use cheap PC DVD-ROM transports). This is definitely a component that will end up on the low end of the scale.


True, but then you're adding more expense and weight, not to mention how much bigger the chassis would have to be to accommodate two separate power supplies. It's just not a practical solution in most cases.


Better gear is always aimed at the audiophile/home theater enthusiast market, mainly because it's a smaller area of interest. Doesn't it seem strange that the mass consumer market tends to deal with mid to low level quality hardware? If more people were interested in better quality you'd see more of the high end stuff trickle down to the mainstream and bring the prices down.


Pointeless to you, perhaps. It makes perfect sense to me and many others like me. OTOH, I own two S3 Tivos with cableCARDs, eliminating the need for any cableco STBs. My system electronics consist of a preamp/processor, HTPC, and two Tivos. I store Blu-Ray and DVD rips on an unRAID server located in another room. When the new CableCARD tuners become available I'll be ditching the two Tivos, reducing my setup to just two components. I have separate monoblock amplifiers for each speaker so they're all located next to the speakers themselves.


I don't see it happening with any decent level of quality. Higher quality equates to higher cost, placing it out of reach for most consumers. Blu-Ray by itself speaks of higher quality performance. Once Blu-Ray hits a certain percentage of market penetration and the prices drop below a golden threshold you may see the BD drives integrated into some sort of all-in-one solution. I would be surprised to see some sort of component that also integrates a DVR into the mix.


If you think computers haven't reached an affordable level then you definitely won't like what quality home theater gear costs.


It's also in the best interest of the consumer interested in quality hardware. If the manufacturers thought they could sell something in large enough quantities, you can believe they would bring it to market.

There isn't enough interest, that's the problem. In general people are satisfied with a DVR from the their provider, and a Blu-ray standalone from their favorite mfg, and an HTIB.

Few people really care about integration, I mean really care, if people did, good universal remotes would be everywhere and integrated systems would be commonplace.

When you really get down to it, the last thing you want is an "all in one" system, especially on the cheap/cost-effective end, because on that end nothing is upgradable.


They're already affordable, I have no idea how that relates to the discussion.


So what do you want, it sounds like you want a high quality, probably upgradable, maybe modular, integrated, all-in-one system. How much do you think that would cost...

Well lets see, Anthem is one of the very few companies who makes upgradeable HT hardware, and their SSP with video processing is $5000 (it's very nice too), add another $2000 for an amp to go with it, throw in a good BD player and DVR functionality, and I really think you'd be looking at a $10,000 box.

If you're expecting a $1000 box, you're going to get something that can't be upgraded.

I fully agree, just saying that one could if they wanted to. But that was covered in my point about not holding ones breath.

There were a couple of chaps putting together an all-seeing, all-dancing HTPC with separate pre/pro (in the same frame, but everything split separate including the power) a while back. But it just kinda fizzled along for a while then the thread went silent at least a year back.


Actually, went to a BB last weekend to play with their camcorders and was kinda impressed with some of the TVs they have in there. Thought they were pretty huge and expensive for a regular J6P retail store like BB. Didn't look at what their selection of receivers or processors had though (too busy sitting on the comfy couch watching the Discovery channel HD video they had rolling.)

I do disagree though that you would see prices come down on audiophile equipment. It is obvious that a good deal of money is exchanged in that market specifically *because* the equipment is so expensive. $300 toslink cables anyone? But to your point, the kind of people that pay audiophile prices are the same kind of people that would never think to buy an all-in-one and certainly not one based on the generic MS operating system.


Yes, I much prefer having separates. The added cost of a $3 monoprice HDMI cable is easily worth it when you have better flexibility on replacing/upgrading components. My livingroom setup has been using the same receiver for years, even though I have replaced the playback devices 3 or 4 times.

-Suntan

For those who don't know, the MSI DIVA I mentioned previously and the Maui are synonymous. I have a question about this assertion that we won't see AVR-like AV switching for HTPCs for at least five years. Why? As HTPCs can deliver most media content now from internal devices or the network, I don't see why it would be so difficult to offer two HDMI inputs on a mobo that could support PAVP to satisfy TV and movie content providers. Further, PAVP would be easier to implement for these inputs because as a practical matter, they would really only have to pass encrypted video from the source plus up to 5.1 LPCM or DD (the only audio content external TV tuners and gaming consoles will output for the forseeable future).

We're not saying it can't physically be done. We're saying (based on having this conversation umpteen times in the past) that you won't see any name brand vendor (be it from the denon,marantz, etc. group or the Dell, HP, etc. group) offer this any time soon.

But, as has been started (and never finsihed to my knowledge) in the past, feel free to design your own and start a little online boutique selling them.

-Suntan

Really why is HDMI switching nearly impossible to implement on the PC?

How does it work?
If the PC has to capture the stream de-HDCP in the incoming stream, because it must be HDCP certified, lock it up with encryption at capture time, split in to audio and video. Pipped to the audio mixer and the video card, still encrypted. This all has to be done with a Minimum of latency, the standard 100+ms that encoder cards take would render the solution unplayable for console gaming.

Then there is the software solution, with would be very difficult to properly integrate.

The other huge hurdle is the hardware can't be developed without software. The software would need to be HDMI, AACS, HDCP, PVP, PAP certified. We don't even have widely available PAP hardware yet.

The ecosystem for content providers to TRUST the PC as a platform that can decode any HDCP HDMI source is NOT there. Nobody with any authority would sign off on such a peice of hardware at this point, not matter how much you want it.

If you're talking about a component from a traditional consumer electronics company, I generally agree with this as most components are not modular. Conversely, this would not be true for an HTPC where all of its parts are easily upgradeable.

Further, if you look at the buying population in general, I'm not sure that they would agree that all in one components are not desireable. Quite the contrary; I think that most people would value a system where all media content could be stored, consumed, and even amplified within a single box. To be clear, I'm talking about the general public, not audiophiles.

I think the potential of the MSI DIVA/Maui platform has been underestimated by many. If it provided some HDMI inputs as I suggested previously and was properly marketed, I believe it could seriously challenge consumer AV recievers in general.

Now, prepros via HTPC would present a different, though not insurmountable challenge. IMO, most people buy prepros for three reasons:
1: Better sound quality versus AV recievers
2: The ability to use larger and/or different amplifiers (tubes for example)
3: A combination of 1 and 2

MSI offers a 7.1 prepro card to compliment their DIVA amp that satisfies item 2 above. The real question is if a vendor could develop a prepro card that could rival the sound quality of say; Denon's AVP-A1 (which I currently own), Anthem's D2, or Theta's Casablanca III. IMO, the answer is yes because I've read enough posts within the HTPC forum about sound cards with very high quality sound (rivaling high-end DACs via analog out) to suggest that its more of a matter of will than technology. Further, given that the current MSI DIVA 7.1 prepro retails for ~ $160 (mobo and card-and can be had for less), I think a very high performance prepro card-mobo combination could be developed for say, $600 if not less. Add in another $600 for HTPC parts and DIY'ers could have a very nice sounding HTPC prepro for ~ $1200. Mark this up 100% for a vendor and you'd still have a viable competitor to current consumer prepros. Remember this hypothetical HTPC prepro would sound at least as good as say, an Onkyo Pro 886 prepro (if not better) with comperable features plus:

• Internal storage and playback of one's music collection (or NAS-based if so desired)
• Internal DVD/BR playback (or possibly NAS-based if negotiated with content providers)
• Easy Internet radio playback
• Very nice UI for media management
• Equivalent functionality of cable DVR early next year (note I didn't include tuner cost in aforementioned totals)
• Ability to act as media server for future extenders or clients
• Ability to serve as general purpose PC if so desired

Would I personally consider such a product in lieu my trusted Denon AVP for ~2K from a vendor (or substantially less if I built it myself)? In the immortal words of Sarah Pallin: You Betcha!

Eric

YOu are absolutely 100% dead wrong.

The reason most people get a pre/pro even when they know how to setup a HTPC, is so they can hook up other sources.

The audio switching alone is a good enough reason, much less video switching.

With an all in one HTPC box, you can't ever add anything that doesn't fit inside your PC. Want to add a Roku box for HD netflix streaming, sorry. Oh you wanted a game console, sorry. You still have vynl records, sorry.

The truth is an external audio/video switching reciever is infintely more flexible than any HTPC solution, and that is why it is widely prefered.

If they could ever get AV switching into a PC that story would change, but the likely hood of that is very slim.

Technically speaking, all the points you make for PC HDMI inputs apply to consumer AV receivers and prepros as well correct? These vendors use a closed combination of hardware and software to allow effective HDMI input and switching. At the end of the day, AV receivers and prepros are application specific computers combined with preamp and amp sections. IMO, PCs can effectively replicate any of these functions. It's simply a matter of will from the appropriate hardware and software vendors.

Your point is taken about the lack of hardware and software vendors that currently support PAVP but that capability is coming quickly, especially on the hardware side (existing Asus Xonar, ATI 5xxx cards, 2010 Q1 Intel Clarkedale CPU). Of the software side, I predict (but admittedly can't guarantee) that the usual suspects (Cyberlink and Arcsoft) will support this hardware within months, not years. Further, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to apply this support to HDMI inputs and again, were talking about PCM and DD only-not HD audio. Moreover, if the audio and video is transmitted through these inputs in encrypted form, I don't see how they would present any more copy risk than any other source that does the same. Decryption of HDMI audio and video occurs at the CPU and GPU correct?

I think that the greatest challenge to HDMI inputs would come from content providers, as opposed to any hardware or software obstacle. Even here as a vendor I'd have to ask the content providers why a user would want to copy console gaming audio or video? TV content is another matter, but again given how PAVP works, I don't see how HDMI inputs, in and of themselves would present any copy threat.

Not really, if you look at the "cheap" computers, they are very non-upgradable. You've got to move up to the Nivues Media type stuff to get an upgradable pre-built HTPC, and those are very expensive.


I don't see a lot of evidence of that. People are happy with their cable company DVRs because cheap, even if they are crappy and not integrated. Most people aren't willing to buy a $200 cheap, decent universal remote let alone a good one, to make their system integrated/automated.


I think people drastically overestimate HTPCs if they think the public at large will adopt them any time soon.


You know why I have an Anthem AVM20 and will buy another (still hoping to upgrade to a 50V)? Because the Anthem is rock solid functionality and build quality. It's probably litterally bulletproof (what with the 1/4" aluminum faceplate ).

I've seen nothing to convince me that a PC would work that well. Especially not if it's built on Windows or any other non RTOS. And just so it's clear, it's largely the Anthem software/firmware running on whatever custom, special purpos OS it uses that are the reason I'll buy another Anthem over something much cheaper.


With SW that's nowhere near as bulletproof as that of a dedicated prepro.


You know, I spent quite a while chasing the "all in one HTPC" dream and you know what I found? The old axiom, "Jack of all trades, master of none" is as applicable as ever.

The below statements are all IMO:

Preamp? My M-Audio Revolution 7.1 had great sound quality and could drive an amp capably. But the audio software on the PC, from the Revo's driver-based Bass Management and time alignment, player audio decoding, all of it was much flakier and inferior to my bulletproof Anthem. No desire to put audio processing back in a PC.

Audio playback? Ton's of apps exist that play my music collection capably on the PC, but a Squeezebox does it with a better interface (for music) and better form factor.

Blu-ray playback? I never liked PowerDVD and my path down the HTPC BD player reminded me why, even when it worked it was rather flaky, TMT didn't work for me at all for some reason. My Pioneer BDP-51FD has bested it in every way but speed.

General video playback? It's probably closest here, there are a number of good apps out there for playing video in an HT, and I use SageTV, but I use their HD200 extender which plays everything I need it to, and does it easier and with equal or better quality to the HTPC it replaced.

DVR-ing and media storage/management? These are IMO the places where PCs shine, it's what they've been built for from their inception, data storage/management/manipulation. SageTV smokes any standalone DVR in features and overall experience IMO.

Now, is it possible for somebody to build a PC based system that does everything possible with equal or better quality to competitively priced standalones? Absolutely I think it's possible, anything is possible with PCs, they're the proof of concept and development tools for most standalone products to begin with.

The problem is, the HTPC market iis far, far, far too small to attract the kind of attention and more importantly money and clout required to get everything in place to do it.


Exactly, and I highly doubt anybody is going to "step up to the plate" and do it.


We need PAVP HDMI input devices, which I don't see happening.


If we leave it to them we're SOL. They don't care about the HTPC market one bit. They only care about large OEM contracts.


Because standalones don't run user software and thus don't pass data over "user accessible" busses.


Have you not noticed that logic is the last thing on these people's minds? HDCP is utterly pointless since you can just grab the perfect, compressed data directly but doesn't mean people are going to stop using HDCP. We can't even get tuners to directly record Satellite TV, how are we going to get all this other stuff to work?

I don't disagree, which is why I stated more than once the need for HDMI inputs on HTPCs if they are to have any chance of serving as a prepro or AV receiver replacement. Though I could have made this point more clear, this statement was comparing the motivation for prepro purchases versus AV receivers, not HTPCs.


For what sources? If you're talking about a turntable or tape deck (analog sources in general), I would agree but if you're talking about CD, DVD, BR, or analog or Internet radio-which I suspect are the most popular sources for most users-PCs can switch these sources internally, eliminating the need for a prepro or receiver.


Not true: Let's take your Roku box as an example. Since I can stream directly from Netflix via Windows MC7 today via Ethernet, why would I need the Roku box? Further, most PC mobos accept analog stereo inputs standard. Optimal sound quality-not necessarily as this would depend on the quality of the A-D converters invovled but to suggest that one can't input external sources for PC playback is simply inaccurate. Indeed, my DIVA HTPC can accept analog or digital input from any consumer source (including gaming consoles) and play it back. The problem is that it can't accept or process multi-channel audio. Now, if I just had to use the DIVA on its own with my Xbox360 or TV and wanted surround sound from my games, I could have input the stereo signal and applied Windows stereo surround mode to it.


You're 100% dead wrong here. Beyond the digital switching of external sources, where I agree that consumer receivers/prepros have the edge, HTPCs are far more flexible in hardware and software. For AV receivers and prepros:

• Can you swap their power supplies?
• Change their DACs?
• Change the power of their video processing in hardware or software?
• Change their processing power via CPU (for purposes of our discussion for media only)?
• Change the type of optical drive (oh, most AV receivers and prepros don't have drives to swap...)
• Change the size or type of media storage (beyond a USB thumb drive)?
• Change the types and capabilities of tuners used (analog or digital, OTA or cable)?
• Change the case itself if you want to change its appearance?
• Change the UI for configuration or media management?

Unlike AV receivers and prepro's, HTPC's are the very model of flexibility in hardware and software. Further, because PCs are based on a collection of standards in hardware and software, the user will have a much larger choice of vendors for its components. How many vendors can you chose from for Nad's pending Master Series receiver and prepro, or Anthem's D2, or Theta's Casablanca? They're all modular but closed systems. As a result the owner will pay dearly for upgrades, if they're ever developed at all. Oh, one more question: For consumer product how many, if any, of their modules will be user installable...

No not even close.

There is no user accisble point on a reciever to capture the data. Where as on the PC if the stream is unencrypted at anypoint it can easily be recaptured.

Not to mention the passing an HDMI signal through unaltered is very different from capturing it and passing it around inside a PC, wich you would need to be doing if you wanted to get room correction, video switching and all the other features integrated into a solid 10ft UI. This would also mean scaling and clock synching.

What your asking for is incredibly diffrent than any hardware available.

Because the PC doesn't do netflix HD!


But do they take phono input?
If you want to playback vynl you need phono input, and also anyone interested in doing that would rather put a gun to their head, then pipe their analog audio into a ADC.


Right because the HTPC as a pre/pro is a total compromise. Having to play your games in stereo when you are sitting in the middle of a 5.1 surround system is like a time warp back to 1995. Not to mention the AV sync issue that would occour running the audio int othe PC and hte video directly to the TV, or the massive lag if you tried to use something like a happauge with component input.


Wich makes them a great AV component, but without HDMI switching, wich as I've described mulitple times is years away if ever, the HTPC is best served as a source and not an end point.

my wifes girl friend asked for a quad system with convertx to dvd, which is crazy... I then explained to here how the video can be ported directly to her TV. she was all over it.

another story
a co worker of hers bought a 50 foot hdmi cable from me, for her tri core amd system and livingroom TV (Future shop)..female also

this kinda stuff brings a lil tear to my eye.

Not as fast as i thought & or would like it to be, but things are changing fellas.

I agree! I think it is just a matter of time until a vendor (or hopefully vendors) offers a more refined version of the MSI DIVA systems that will provide a commercially viable alternative to traditional consumer receivers and prepros.

All-in-1-box = Hard to upgrade.

Seems counter-intuitive, but history has shown this is the case. And buying new/keeping things separate is more economical in the long run. And we know $ is king.

Since the early 4.77 mhz IBM PC, they have attempted to have CPU in a module, so when u outgrow of that CPU, u just drop in a faster CPU module right. Wrong, the new CPU needs a lower voltage, a faster/wider bus etc. and that's the gut of the machine, it's cheaper just to start from scratch.

No high-end audio gears wants to put Windows inside their boxes. If something goes wrong, are they gonna tell you, Hey, it's not us, is Microsoft's fault! Too late, their once trusted brand is now forever tarnished.

Somethings are meant to be kept separate. And am unanimous on that. But hey, it doesn't stop u from building one. The technology is there, you just have to integrate them yourself, that's all.

All right! A heated battle on if a all in one HTPC is viable?

Well, I say just give us the few extra pieces off hardware that is missing and it should all be settled.

What we lack at the moment is real "universal" amplifiers for computers, not something half ass stuff that the MSI Diva seems to have become. Mainly reliability issues it would seem to have and that the amplifier card and pre pro only work on that specific motherboard?! WTH?

Why is there required that weird extra connector for the pre-pro card and the amplifier? I would say it's not really necessary.

They could make a standalone all onboard add on amplifier card fittable in any PC whit a free PCI/PCI-E slot. Or 2 card solution consisting off a "soundcard" and matching amplifier card for connecting loudspeakers directly.

The amplifier cards should be fairly simple to add as extra hardware choice to todays computers. Just make a card that takes a soundsource on the computer and just outputs it, meaning right DA converter whatnot on the card. Could exist several tier levels in different price ranges.

Hell I read somewhere there is already a "universal" PC amplifier add on card on the way from some company. But the wattage and measurements etc claims on that card seem highly dubious.

About Phono? well should be simple to add to any product if there is demand for it. But at the moment is there really such a high demand for such a thing on PC now or in the future? I would say not really.

About HDMi inputs... Well that can take some time to show up at all into PC market. The way they handle that suff legally and all doesn't help encourage anyone from trying whit all kinds off limitations, costs and whatnot the product would be under to be accepted at all from the content providers point of view. Just to much hassle I would say. They would practically need to kill their bitching and policies for it to show up in any useful functional way.
Though I can see it happening in some way or the other if in some kind off limited way. Maybe a soundcard/amplifier combo has option bracket whit hdmi inputs where they take the audio directly handled on the add on cards to be processed and video just passthrough to the dedicated output. Basically the hdmi input bracket would be off limits from the PC side but to choose which input to use and be processed and outputed. Should be possible and whit not to much hassle if the video/audio stream is not accessible from the PC side but to set parameter settings on how to process and such the audio to output through comp amplifier/sound matching card. Isn't this the same functionality your receiver would have done whit it's "hdmi switch". I see it completely possible for the audio and video not to be accessible but still being output through the computer, or rather in concert whit he computer but kinda exterior. Should not be to hard to accept from the content providers viewpoint.

A PC is easy to upgrade if you put as much stuff to add on cards as possible. If you incorporate these things into motherboards it gets a lot messier.

Lets see...
A soundcard whit amplifier section and a hdmi input addon = 3x PCI/PCI-E slots. Add a tuner or two 1-2x. What more? well All in one should include gaming right? 2slot graphics card = + 2 more PCI slots occupied. Well should be about done there. Will all fit into a ATX motherboard whit 7 normal PCI/PCI-E slots and you have your all in one AVR/dvd/blu-ray/music/storage/gaming box that is highly customizable and variable in size and price depending on parts choices.

I really don't think the computer part is the problem, computers have the ability to get smaller and smaller and still get better, but if we look at a reciever they are the same now as they were 10 years ago (and probably 20 aswell, but that was before my audio-time. Yes it's better and have more functionalities, but you still need 7/9x100ish watt for the reciever, and then you need a good sized chassis to supply the power and to keep it cool.

But why do you want it in the same chassis anyways? Within 6 months we'll have the technology to build a HTPC that's smaller then a laptop and delivers enough kick for a HTPC including bitstreaming.

Having a 1-inch high or (even lower if you want) beautiful box ontop of a good reciever is imo a perfect setup. for a home theatre.

I agree, and though a lot of verbiage was exchanged when the rubber meets the road, the only lacking technology piece (a big one) at this point is HDMI inputs. Again, using the DIVA as an example I can speak to with first hand experience, if it had fully functional HDMI inputs it could serve as a legitimate AV receiver alternative for the masses.


Based on what it cost to build my amplified DIVA (and the prepro version's price is similar), I think it would be more like $1500, worst case via a B&M network. If an ID model was used, I think the price would be closer to $1000. HP actually released a multi-channel HTPC prepro with RCA outputs several years ago carried by Best Buy for ~ $1000 IMS, but it failed. IMO, it failed for three reasons: 1-The example I saw at BB was statically displayed and not playable. 2-The piece was on display in the PC area, as opposed to the AV area where it should have been set up for play and demonstration. 3-(shock alert!) the blue shirts in the PC area knew nothing about it.