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myn's Tuba HT Review (LLT vs THT) - Page 3

post #61 of 403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post

I most likely missed it, but what is the amp that you are powering it with?

EP2500 running it in stereo from 1 of the channels (650 watts @ 4ohms). Way overkill but it is the amp I already had powering my LLT.

I've got the attenuation on the amp turned way down (12 oclock position) as giving the THT a full 650 watts would result in a listening level that would be dangerous (Above 130dbs). Not to mention the cops would be back .

I believe MaxMercy is running his THT on a plate amp with way less than 500 watts.
post #62 of 403
mynym,

I have checked out Bill's site and he has a few different sizes of the THTs. You built the 24" one. With my specs I can fit up to a 32" box through my doorway to get down to the basement so the 30" version would fit. Would I be getting that much 'more' out of the bigger version? Also, do they use the same driver? I have 2 eD190v.2's (18") still in boxes and an ep2500 waiting for a rather large build, but from the sounds of it you would recommend the THT over the twin 18" monster with a ton of power? My current plans are probably an easier build compared to the THT for me because this will be my first HT subwoofer. I've built many car subs. Are they a more difficult build?

I guess to go way over the top......... I have the room for both. Would they compliment each other? You state that you are looking to get rid of your LLT, so my guess is that either you don't have the room or you just flat don't need it because of the performance of the THT. Have you run both at the same time?


One other thing. I watched your videos and you were worried about your neighbors coming over to complain. Are you in a single family home / de-attached home? Not a condo or apartment?

Thanks for a great thread and for any information you can throw my way.


dbldare
post #63 of 403
This is an example of another build from that site. Pretty impressive seeing how he is only running them straight off of his stock car stereo, 8-10 watts!!!


dbldare
post #64 of 403
My THT has never seen more than 80 Watts, and that's because I boost the sub-20Hz region due to my room. I don't get much room gain. Above 20Hz, my THT usually never sees more than 10 Watts.

The dual 18's will probably outdo the THT below 15Hz, only due to the displacement advantage they have. The THT is only horn loaded to 22Hz, and the response drops from there until it matches a sealed 15". Above 20Hz, you have a competition to post about....

JSS
post #65 of 403
Thanks for the info.

Due to the fact that I already have the materials for the dual 18" build, I think I'll crank that out and then give the THT a try.


dbl
post #66 of 403
Hey myn, is that pussycat dolls video just something that was on TV or is it a DVD? Would like to try that on my system. Looks like a track that you can really crank plus the girls, err, scenery isn't bad either
post #67 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Hey myn, is that pussycat dolls video just something that was on TV or is it a DVD? Would like to try that on my system. Looks like a track that you can really crank plus the girls, err, scenery isn't bad either

LOL! Now there's an action flick!!!
post #68 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbldare View Post

LOL! Now there's an action flick!!!

No doubt. Would watch it once probably with sound on and cranked, but any subsequent viewing would probably done with no sound as to drown out the horrible music. I think the same thing about Jessica Simpson. She may be the perfect girl if she didn't have to go around talking all the time. Where's the mute button???
post #69 of 403
Lol! +1, +1
post #70 of 403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbldare View Post

mynym,

I have checked out Bill's site and he has a few different sizes of the THTs. You built the 24" one. With my specs I can fit up to a 32" box through my doorway to get down to the basement so the 30" version would fit. Would I be getting that much 'more' out of the bigger version? Also, do they use the same driver? I have 2 eD190v.2's (18") still in boxes and an ep2500 waiting for a rather large build, but from the sounds of it you would recommend the THT over the twin 18" monster with a ton of power? My current plans are probably an easier build compared to the THT for me because this will be my first HT subwoofer. I've built many car subs. Are they a more difficult build?

I guess to go way over the top......... I have the room for both. Would they compliment each other? You state that you are looking to get rid of your LLT, so my guess is that either you don't have the room or you just flat don't need it because of the performance of the THT. Have you run both at the same time?


One other thing. I watched your videos and you were worried about your neighbors coming over to complain. Are you in a single family home / de-attached home? Not a condo or apartment?

Thanks for a great thread and for any information you can throw my way.


dbldare

The wider 30" would give you a slightly smoother response. The down side of wider panels besides an overall larger foot print is it will be a little more of challenging securing and gluing the wider panels in place. The 24.5" width seems like the sweet spot where there are diminishing returns the larger you go. Regardless of width, they both use the same driver selection.


I have never heard the eD190v.2's but I suspect if it even had double the performance of my IXL18.4's, I'd still think a single THT would easily overshadow a couple of them in LLT enclosures in both SQ and SPL.

I've built 6 or 7 car audio enclosures, sealed and ported and last year I built my first HT sub, the LLT. I would consider myself an n00b/amateur in wood working. Bill Fitzmaurice has a scale on the Construction Degree of Difficulty. The THT is rated a 4. There are 10 internal panels, Since all of the angles are less than 10 degrees, you can use 90 degree cross-cuts, just make sure you caulk well with the recommended glue (PL Premium) for any air leaks. Despite having a table saw, I preferred to use a circular saw. Will it take longer to build than say a SonoSub or sealed/ported alignment? Yes but the degree of difficulty in construction isn't really that much greater. And I would say it's actually easier from an assembly perspective as the detailed plans outline how to do everything.

My original intention before the THT was built was to run both the LLT and THT in tandem. I actually thought the LLT wouldn't have a problem keeping up. After hearing both the THT and LLT side by side, The LLT only seems to detract away from the effortless low distortion sound the THT produces. And with the THT's ability to get to insane levels of SPL while maintaining ultra low distortion levels, the LLT is really now obsolute. The value it would bring would be more detrimental to the total sound.

As far as my house goes. It's a 3200 sq foot single family home. The media room where the THT lives in 19' x 23' x 9'. I DEFINITELY would not recommend this sub if you live in an attached apartment, town home or condo.

To give you perspective, I'm on a corner lot so I have an advantage where the house is sitting. Towards the front my adjacent neighbors are 40-50 feet away. Towards the back, 20 - 25 feet. The media room is actually sublevel and has cinder blocks half way up the wall and on the wall that the horn is bouncing it's sound off of has doubled up studs and insulation . The floor in this room is also concrete.



post #71 of 403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Hey myn, is that pussycat dolls video just something that was on TV or is it a DVD? Would like to try that on my system. Looks like a track that you can really crank plus the girls, err, scenery isn't bad either


Pussy Cat Dolls Live in Malaga 2008




It's visually and audibly a great demo for the "LIVE KICK" you normally feel at concerts.
post #72 of 403
Myn,

Thanks for the very informative reply! That told me all I need to know. I've ordered the plans, heck even if I don't build one - $15? I have a very similar basement (my cement walls climb to the top though, but basically the same. I've built a 'sub-floor' over the top of the cement floor. It's 2x4's on their sides nailed down to the concrete with 3/4" MDF glued and screwed down to them. The walls are traditional 2x4 16" centers also floating (code here in Colorado). AND, I have SUPER cool neighbors! Hummmm, a 24" compared to the 30" isn't too big of a difference? I think maybe a 24" is in my near future.

BTW, I love your thread on your build!

Thanks again,
dbl
post #73 of 403
How would a monster (like Ricci's LLT) perform in the sub-20 Hz area compared to your THT ? I am trying to see what some pros/cons of LLT/THT would be. Does an LLT at a fairly common low tuning of 11 Hz perform better in it's tuning area than a THT tuned to 22 Hz ?

Again, for the purposes of what we are talking about, we can assume reasonable gear choices for each of LLT/THT. I'd like to get an idea of whether the LLT has a reason for existing anymore versus a THT.
post #74 of 403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garric33 View Post

How would a monster (like Ricci's LLT) perform in the sub-20 Hz area compared to your THT ? I am trying to see what some pros/cons of LLT/THT would be. Does an LLT at a fairly common low tuning of 11 Hz perform better in it's tuning area than a THT tuned to 22 Hz ?

Again, for the purposes of what we are talking about, we can assume reasonable gear choices for each of LLT/THT. I'd like to get an idea of whether the LLT has a reason for existing anymore versus a THT.

This is a very good question. Maybe Ricci can help us out with the answer.

I know Ricci was at The Great Southern Sub Shootout. He brought along some of what I would consider the best drivers available: LMS 5400 and a RE XXX although they were put in sealed enclosures at the shootout.

MaxMercy said it best:
Quote:


"Think of the THT as a 'poor mans' TH50. "

Ricci: How do your LLT's compare to the TH50 you heard at the shootout?



EDIT: I Found this post from Ricci on the shootout thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Here's my listening impressions...
...
..
.

DSL TH50
$3150 (I think), single 15" TH, 18hz extension rated, 25x34x45 or 22.15 cu ft external. 20hz 12db octave Butterworth HPF ( I think. Ask Ivan)

This is the one I wanted to hear most. It was run off of one channel on the PL9.0. This was the last one up and there was a lot of anticipation and expectations about it. It didn't disappoint. We ran through the movie tracks first since we were already on that disc. In short it was in a different league from everything else even the Worx sub in output and power from at least 18hz up. It pressurized the room and in a way and with an ease that nothing else did. It was concussive and tactile. You could feel the pressure on your face and your clothing in a way that I had not felt all day. It was clean and deep sounding too. I don't know how close it was to it's limits but it purely overpowered the deep bass void that was in the middle of the room where I had been sitting all day. Brute force. On music it was much better than the THspud IMO and closer to the CS30's. Not as good as the LMS but not bad at all. Huge punch and chest slam. I did detect a bit of some sort of resonance or overemphasis on some notes in the top of the bass range. Ivan switched to a slightly lower 80hz, I think, x over and it immediately sounded better. Just clean and deep at that point. Seems to sound better crossed lower. Once we got to Bass I Love You it was so loud that it knocked over some items on the desk near the computer and we decided to call it a day there. I think we registered 128.7db peak with it. When you consider that it's in the same price range as a Fathom F113, it looks like a bargain to me. It's huge of course and won't win any WAF contests but it'd be worth it for HT. This is the first time I've actually heard Danley products and this is the one that made me think Ok... Now I get what all of the fuss is about. Whatever they are doing in that cabinet is impressive. If you put that 15" driver in a sealed cab it would've got owned by the LMS. It wouldn't come close to doing what it does in that TH enclosure if it was a standard ported cab either. It was insane for 1 15" even if it is a big hefty 15.
post #75 of 403
What kind of asshat neighbors you have to call the cops on you?

What are the hours that you can play loud music? I live in a single family home from 12 pm to about 10 pm ..I can blast it as much as I can..

I got 4 Tempests in a 55 cubic foot vented box powered by a Crest CPX2600 wired for 2 ohms.... and it can literally vibrate the crap out of my 12" concrete foundation home.... I still don't know how much I can blast it... never had a problem with my neighbors... I feel bad for you...
post #76 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanaris View Post

What kind of asshat neighbors you have to call the cops on you?

What are the hours that you can play loud music? I live in a single family home from 12 pm to about 10 pm ..I can blast it as much as I can..

I got 4 Tempests in a 55 cubic foot vented box powered by a Crest CPX2600 wired for 2 ohms.... and it can literally vibrate the crap out of my 12" concrete foundation home.... I still don't know how much I can blast it... never had a problem with my neighbors... I feel bad for you...


That was you?!?!?!?! I'm callin' the cops next time!


dbl
post #77 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanaris View Post

What kind of asshat neighbors you have to call the cops on you?

Kind of what I was thinking too. Most noise ordnance's don't take effect until a certain time at night.

Also why I love living out in the country.
post #78 of 403
Huge LLTs will have an advantage in the subsonic range, it's just physics, no replacement for displacement, but that displacement only takes place at larger power levels....

What a lot of people fail to realize is that the majority of movie bass is above 20Hz, right in the THT's and TH50's wheelhouse...with few exceptions, all the bass in music takes place above 30Hz....

The slam and kick you feel is way higher than you think, above 50Hz....

Here's a spectrum of me hitting the snare, rack toms, floor tom and kick drum on my drum kit. I use Ebony pinstripe heads, in other words tuned low compared to most kits. You can see that my floor tom has a pitch bend in its lower register, and that the kick has most of it's energy at 50Hz. It's fundamental resonates at 35Hz....

JSS
LL
post #79 of 403
More examples....

MK has said this is some of the lowest and strongest bass in TF2 (and I agree)....note that the sweep goes from 35 to 25Hz...it does have some sub-20Hz information, but it is at a lower level than the main sweep.

There are always exceptions...the second file is the sonic cannons firing up in the Incredible Hulk....Unreal content below 20Hz....but the 'slam' you feel when they first get switched on, at the bottom of the graph....60-80Hz...

The loudest scene in TF2? The last file shows it....all significant content above 30Hz.
LL
LL
LL
post #80 of 403
maxmercy, re: the various drum hits...great data!
post #81 of 403
Wow, this thread really has me thinking of trying a THT. I'd never really given horns much thought since all of the Danley ones are so huge, but this one isn't that unreasonable.

I'd been thinking of DIY'ing a couple end table 15's or 18's tuned to the mid-teens, but what I'm really after is the higher frequency effects and these horns seem to do that at a small fraction of the power & cost of a ported design.

Guess I better do some more reading on the physics involved, but so far I'm sold!

mynym, you seem perfectly content with your new THT, but in your listening thus far do you find yourself missing anything that your LLT did?
post #82 of 403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruttenjump View Post

mynym, you seem perfectly content with your new THT, but in your listening thus far do you find yourself missing anything that your LLT did?

Not a single thing. The THT to my ears does everything better.
post #83 of 403
For a picture - here are two subwoofer projects. One (silver graph) is a large EBS Tuned to 15 Hz. The other is a different design. Both are fairly large (20 cubic feet internal) projects - large, but not TOO large.

The EBS delivers 119 dB at 15 Hz to 114 dB for the other sub.

At 32 Hz, the other sub is delivering 126 dB to 119 for the EBS.

Finally, at 50 Hz, the other sub hits 133 dB to 121 for the EBS.

Mynym - I would venture a guess you would prefer the other sub. Your thoughts ?


post #84 of 403
Well i'm sold already on the folded horn performance having used them in small clubs throughout NY for live sound BUT i simply don't have the spec's space as it stands to build one. I'm limited to a 24" wide by 24" tall by 36" deep space. Are there any Tuba designs that will work with these dimensions? I suspect i'll have significant room gain as the new HT space is 16x12x8 fully closed. I'd like to build this as a table with a functional Granite top. Now this may seem like a Lazy approach but honestly my brain is simply too full of useless info to injest Hornresp and other design math to design my own enclosure.
post #85 of 403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

For a picture - here are two subwoofer projects. One (silver graph) is a large EBS Tuned to 15 Hz. The other is a different design. Both are fairly large (20 cubic feet internal) projects - large, but not TOO large.

The EBS delivers 119 dB at 15 Hz to 114 dB for the other sub.

At 32 Hz, the other sub is delivering 126 dB to 119 for the EBS.

Finally, at 50 Hz, the other sub hits 133 dB to 121 for the EBS.

Mynym - I would venture a guess you would prefer the other sub. Your thoughts ?

Measuring both my LLT and THT, The THT is significantly more capable of higher SPL at lower freqs (even below 20hz) in contrast to my LLT.

I see it a little more like this [below]. (White line being THT, Pink being LLT)

Even with the LLT tuned lower than the THT, the THT has more low end output. But when you equate room gain into this equation which isn't reflected in the graph, at least in my case the THT has more output even into single digits.


post #86 of 403
I have used folded horns in my theater as well. here are my findings. They were tuned to 25 or 20 hz, I can't remember which one. I used 2 of them, they were 18 inch folded horns and they cost me $700 for the 2. I compared them to 4 LLT's 18's that cost me $1000. During movie playback with both calibrated flat to the other speakers they hit the same spl during WOTW(125 db's from 12 feet away, uncorrected numbers). I then played the movie Pulse and it's famous 15-19hz lab scene. Guess what, they both played the same spl(110db's uncorrected). Now for the big differences in sound quality. There was no competition in the midbass, the folde horns were just so accurate and powerful in the midbass it was scary abd during the low frequency scenes it would shake some things pretty good. The LLT's had much more visceral effects with the low frequencies like pressurization and moving the pant legs, standing the hair on your head, but the chest slam was not as good. This Is why I am trying the Danley, being a horn that is tuned lower than my LLT's makes me think this will give me both and both would be an incredible experience.
post #87 of 403
Myn,

I thought your LLT was tuned to 11Hz....the graph looks like a 15Hz tune....now it makes perfect sense why the THT eclipses your LLT...when corner loaded, the THT doesn't act like a sealed box until it hits 10Hz. at 15Hz, it gets 3dB over a sealed box, and at 20Hz it's an 8dB difference. This is comparing a THT loaded with a Reference HF 15", with a 5 cuft sealed Reference HF 15" using hornresp.

8dB for the same amount of excursion is a HUGE deal as far as distortion in concerned...the sealed box driver would need to move twice as far at 20Hz to make up for those 8dB, bringing distortion with it...

To get what a single THT puts out at the same driver excursion levels, you'd need 3 sealed 15 inchers, and they'd need 3x the power that a single THT draws...the sealed boxes would win the displacement contest down low, and would put out more sound below 15Hz...the three sealed boxes would be about 15 cuft in total volume, the THT is 18 cuft....and the THT would still beat them above 50Hz...


JSS
post #88 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

you know that you want to scott, so just do it...


Heheheh, yeah! I was thinking something more like this though...



There's no cool, animated version of me in that one unfortunately.
post #89 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

Measuring both my LLT and THT, The THT is significantly more capable of higher SPL at lower freqs (even below 20hz) in contrast to my LLT.

I see it a little more like this [below]. (White line being THT, Pink being LLT)

Even with the LLT tuned lower than the THT, the THT has more low end output. But when you equate room gain into this equation which isn't reflected in the graph, at least in my case the THT has more output even into single digits.



I am guessing you modeled two different ported subwoofers for this graph ? If not, and that's an actual model of the THT, can you show how you modeled it ?

It's also possible you meant this is how the THT performs in your room ?

EDIT - The ESB sub I modeled was using the B&C 21 inch driver in a 20 cubic foot enclosure and tuned to 15 Hz. The amp was a 1500 watt amplifier. That would be one heck of a subwoofer.
post #90 of 403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Myn,

I thought your LLT was tuned to 11Hz....the graph looks like a 15Hz tune....now it makes perfect sense why the THT eclipses your LLT...when corner loaded, the THT doesn't act like a sealed box until it hits 10Hz. at 15Hz, it gets 3dB over a sealed box, and at 20Hz it's an 8dB difference. This is comparing a THT loaded with a Reference HF 15", with a 5 cuft sealed Reference HF 15" using hornresp.

8dB for the same amount of excursion is a HUGE deal as far as distortion in concerned...the sealed box driver would need to move twice as far at 20Hz to make up for those 8dB, bringing distortion with it...

To get what a single THT puts out at the same driver excursion levels, you'd need 3 sealed 15 inchers, and they'd need 3x the power that a single THT draws...the sealed boxes would win the displacement contest down low, and would put out more sound below 15Hz...the three sealed boxes would be about 15 cuft in total volume, the THT is 18 cuft....and the THT would still beat them above 50Hz...


JSS

Yup, my LLT is tuned to 14hz.
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