Plasma - Flicker - 24P proccessing

I'm wondering about this too. I'm a LCD person wanting to change over to Plasma. I asked in another thread and flickering does not happen on LCD (or so someone else claimed), and that makes sense b/c I had no idea what it was.

I'm interested in this b/c I'm trying to decide between the 50" G10 and 50" V10.

It has something to do with the s1 or g10 not able to process 1080p/24p during BD playback causing the flicker.The v10 can.Cant explain it in tech terms sorry.If you do a search on the subject there are alot of threads there.
found this
-The elimination of 3:2 pulldown only makes sense for HD movies since all SD DVDs are in fact 480i requiring deinterlacing and 3:2 pulldown. All 3:2 pulldowns wherever they happen will introduce a slight motion judder by their very nature. The only way to preserve the original frames 1080p/24 without any judder (and without de-interlacing) is if the display/projector can accept 1080p/24 AND refresh the 1080p frames at a multiple of 24Hz (48, 72, 96 or 120Hz). This is obviously the ideal concerning fidelity to the original movies.
If the display can only refresh at 60Hz then a 3:2 pulldown will happen with judder. Of course, if scaling to 720p or whatever is needed then the resolution will not be the same as the original movie neither.
So if your HD player can output 1080p/24 AND your display can accept 1080p/24 AND your display can refresh at mutiples of 24Hz then you should eliminate all processing on the original 1080p/24 source. All other sources (480i/p, 1080i, 1080p/60) will need 3:2 pulldown and deinterlacing done by the player, and or external VP, and or the display.
Hope this help somehow...

1. Is this flicker a feed / source (I Robot) problem ?

No...its a TV problem, prevalent on most Panasonic plasmas (word is the V series gets it right)

2. Is this flickering issue common for plasma TVs ? Does this happen in LCDs as well ?

With Panasonic yes... Samsung owners will have to speak for themselves. LCD's not sure but I'm sure it exists.

3. Does this happen only in White background scenes on Plasmas ?

Mostly or any light or pastel colors that serve in the backdrop. This is where its most noticeable as its always present.

4. Is that flicker because of lack of 24P processing ? Is this flicker also called as Judder ?

Judder is when panning stutters across the screen. 24P is supposed to alleviate that problem as it refreshes the screen in conjunction with film sources at 24fps. Otherwise both the TV and the source are running the same speed.

5. Finally....Would the same scene flicker on Panasonic 65V10 ?

See above... allegedly not.

Depending on the store and the feed, I would find it very hard to believe that any of the plasmas were set up for 24p playback. 24p playback is not an option on the Panasonic S1, only 60hz with 3:2 pulldown.

To compare with the LCD playback, you would need to play the same scene on an LCD.

Also, I have no idea about "I Robot". Was this a Blu-Ray or standard DVD? How was the source mastered? What playback options were selected on the playback device? How was the playback device connected (HDMI/Component/Coax) as each of these will introduce various playback artifacts?

I have not heard of anyone who sees flicker at 60hz 3:2 playback as that is the way we have been watching film on TV from the 1930's until 2006. It was only with the advent of Blu-Ray that 24p playback was an option and I don't believe there were any HDTV's that could take advantage of this until 2007.

As far as 24p playback options, Panasonic offers two.

The G10 can do 24p playback at 48hz. Most people, myself included, can see flicker at 48hz.

The V10 and Z1 do 24p playback at 96hz. Very few people can see flicker at this resolution. Some people do perceive flicker with this setting, but it is more with their peripheral vision than direct. Also, there was a hug debate on this in the V10 forum where a number of users could see flicker on static images with 24p playback, but my personal belief, based on what I have read and think I understand, is that what was being seen was the effect of seeing 24fps with 4:4 pulldown. Showing the same image four times then selecting the next image (even if it is the same as on a static screen) and showing it four times. This process repeated 24 times each second.

Pioneer uses 72hz for 24p playback with basically the same process as Panasonic except using 3:3 pulldown.

With LCD's the process is usually different. I do not know of any current LCD's that use a 3:3, 4:4, 5:5 pulldown process. Most process 24p at a higher refresh rate that typically makes the image look smoother. Some people like this as it gives film more of a video look. Others prefer the film like cadence of one of the pulldown methods.

The purpose of 24p is to emulate the feel of film which shows 24 distinct frames each second. Depending on the type of scene, projector, screen and interior lighting, some people can see these same effects in a movie theater.

I live in San Diego and go to Fry's about once per week (I know, I need help). That I, Robot feed is NOT from a Blu Ray source or even a standard DVD source for that matter. It's on their variety feed that shows all sorts of stuff. I don't even know which type of source that even comes from, but it's not a good source to base the quality of a TV on that's for sure.

As far as the technical reasoning for this stuff, I will leave that to other people with more knowledge.

You guys are stating that a lot of Panasonic models suffer from this. Do some Samsung plasma models do this? I own a Samsung plasma but haven't seen I Robot and have never experienced this flicker on anything I have watched to date.

So does this mean that pioneers have this problem or does the 3:3 solve this?

If the Fry's in Lombard IL is anything like your Fry's, they use coax to connect the TVs. And they amp the hell out of the signal in order to drive all the TVs they have on display. My Fry's has (I'm guessing) 75 TVs all showing the same thing. Can't possibly be a decent source signal.

There's no way this has anything to do with Panasonic's handling of 24p material because I can GUARANTEE that none of the sets in the store have that on. The demo reel is going to be 60hz.

The "flickering" could be anything but I would bet that you're just seeing the naturally low framerate of film. 24 frames per second doesn't look smooth when there's a lot of motion on the screen. Many LCDs can smooth this out though in my opinion it looks horrible and unnatural...movies just aren't supposed to look like that.

This is not a problem. The intention of 24p playback is to create the illusion of film on a television screen. This includes cadence. Which some people say as flicker.

I think a lot of this is how familiar a person is with watching film. This means in a decent theater, good projector, screen, etc. Some of the older theater screens were much worse at showing perceived flicker than most modern ones.

As far as Samsung models, it depends. The lower end Samsung plasmas offer only 60hz playback with 3:2 pulldown. The higher end offerings offer 24p playback but I don't remeber their specs or if they are using frame repeat of frame intrpolation as most LCD's use. I have seen the 850 plasma at Best Buy and it gave a very good impression, but that was several months ago and I don't remember what the content was and don't believe it was showing Blu-Ray at 24p.

People that are looking for 24p playback do not look at the sometimes perceived flicker as a problem. This is the film mode many have been seeking since their first Laser Disc back in 1977/78 or VCR in 1976.

If you consider this a problem, then yes, Pioneer has it.

One other thing, 48/72/96 is not the same thing as the refresh rate on a PC monitor. Please see my explanation above. If anything 24p playback would most resemble a 24hz refresh rate on a PC monitor. To make the image acceptable each of the 24 frames is repeated a certain number of times to diminish or eliminate the perception of flicker. Based on my own eyes, 48hz or 2:2 is not enough but either of the other two work very well.

I still don't think you understand why there is flicker. Again, motion judder has nothing to do with flicker. There is flicker on a film projector because the projector has a shutter that blocks off the light when each frame moves to the next. So we see flicker because there is a rapid succession of light and no light. This is also why it makes sense that flicker is more obvious when there is a bright scene. And even though movies are 24fps, film projectors usually work at 48 displaying each frame twice so there is less "black" between each frame and therefore less flicker. The same concept applies to Plasmas and CRTs but of course they work differently. I don't know exactly how they work but I think the phosphors decay to black very quickly. Like a film projector a higher refresh rate would have less flicker.

So I don't see how these TVs are any different than a refresh rate on a PC monitor other than maybe they only accept a 24p signal.

Now as for what the OP is seeing, I don't know. Some people can still see flicker at 60hz on plasma so maybe he is seeing flicker. Maybe he is seeing judder.

But again, motion judder has nothing to do with flicker. A low refresh rate does, which is why Panasonics 48hz has crazy flicker.

He's just trying to get to the bottom of the OP's question -- what is it that he's describing? It may be "flicker" like a bad flourescent flight or it could just be that he's comparing plasmas without any motion interpolation to 120hz/240hz LCDs.

Also, a 60hz plasma is not the same as a 60hz CRT, any more than a 60 LCD is like a 60hz plasma. LCDs essentially don't flicker at any refresh rate due to their long duty cycle (lack of black between frames, as you described). You could have a 20hz LCD and it would look rock solid. That's a blessing and a curse, as it also means that LCDs have to pull all kinds of motion interpolation tricks to avoid blur.

Plasmas have a shorter duty cycle than LCDs, though not as short as CRTs so a 60hz plasma will generally be less flickery than a 60hz CRT.

I think that the OP is probably just bothered by film's low frame rate, which plasmas preserve and LCDs don't.

Right, and I was actually just mostly continuing a conversation with him that started in the V10 thread a week or so ago that was also about flicker.

LCD's most certainly do. Almost All 120 hz and 240 hz LCD's display 24p content correctly with the motion interpolation turned OFF. When the interpolation is turned OFF a 120 hz LCD will display 24p content with a 5/5 cadence and a 240 hz LCD will display 24p content with a 10/10 cadence. In either case it preserves the natural film look while eliminating judder and introduces no flicker and no soap opera effect.

I'm not talking about preserving film cadence, I mean motion blur. An LCD can properly do 5:5 or 10:10 pulldown, be totally judder-free, and still have serious motion problems due to the "sample and hold effect." They're completely different things.

If the refresh rate is below 85Hz and you have sensitivity to flicker then you will notice this on plasmas all the time. LCDs refresh differently so it does not apply here.

The new high end Panasonics can do 96Hz refresh rate which is flicker free even for sensitive people. 85Hz or so is the threshold where people can't notice flicker anymore.

Actually it was discussed in the V10 topic that for some odd reason 96hz had more flicker than 60hz. No one knows why other than somehow the 48/96hz modes work differently than the 60hz.