ADA Mach 4......WOW!!!! - Page 56

Question to you humble lot....

I recently sold my suite 7.1hd to a friend. Its the original 1.3 version.

Now he is interested in sending it in for the upgrade to hdmi 1.4 for only the new dsp chipsets. He is not interested in 1.4 hdmi.

Has anyone done this upgrade? Be it on a suite or crm4. Would you say it was a worth while spend of £1200 if only looking for sound quality improvements. My guess is not.

A customer of mine went through that upgrade; it included the new HDMI board regardless. There were some issues with the original firmware, that was what prompted the upgrade (HDCP handshakes became flaky).

We haven't had HDCP problems since.

Dan

Thanks Dan.

So your customer didn't come back to you with, 'Wow, what an upgrade it now sounds super super amazing. '

As I thought its more for technicalities and bug issues rather than general sound quality improvements.

So another question comes to my mind now. Did this customer get this upgrade for free as it essentially fixed a buggy or faulty hdmi board?

I have a crm4 with version 1.10. Hdmi 1.3 and things like my TiVo that worked perfectly on my Ada suite 7.1hd are now flakey on my crm4. Often have to switch to the input a few times to get it to lock onto audio. Similarly with the oppo 93. Not a biggy for me but wonder if these are the kind of bugs your customer encountered.

Hey folks,

Just checking out the ada site, and noticed they actually have announced the Cinema Reference Mach IV. Any idea of release date, and pricing (is it really $40K)? Not sure I "need" anything above the Cinema Rhapsody Mach IV... at that cost, youzza!

Thx,

Stieger

Yes that firmware was free: the unit was still under warranty.

Cinema Reference is shipping now (limited runs). I have one in my demo system for those that would like a demo.

Dan

Dan,

Did (Joel?) ever come to check out the Reference vs. the Rhapsody? I was reading through most of this thread and wasn't sure if he ever made it out since Air CA haulted his original plans.

See PM...

Stieger

Joel and I are still working on that; he's an extremely busy guy, so it's been a challenge.

The point of his demo is really to show the difference between the built-in Trinnov of the Reference vs. the add-on TEQ-12...I can tell people that there's an audible difference all day long- but you have to hear it for yourself.

Dan

I just wonder if a modular solution (cinema rhapsody + teq 12)
is better (for a 7.1 system) than the all in one of the reference..
I mean, if you want to change just the preamplifier in the future
(because of new codecs like dolby atmos or other reasons..)
in the second case you have to change all the box, trinnov included:
more money now and after!!

There are still 2 very important, very real differences: the connection between the two devices is DIGITAL inside the Reference, and the output DACs from the Reference are actually Trinnov, not the normal ones ADA uses. There's also talk of the capability to expand the Reference to greater than 16 channels already.

As far as new codecs: how many years spanned the gap from Dolby Digital to Dolby TrueHD? and prior to that how many spanned Dolby Pro Logic to Dolby Digital (AC3-RF even)? Consumer codecs don't change that rapidly- and when they do, in most cases the accompanying technology change (read video connectors- DVI, HDMI, Component, etc) is really more of an impetus to change processors than the audio.

We truly are a fringe group here on these forums- and especially in this particular forum, where we discuss equipment so far past the realm of normal expenditures that most "normal" people don't even know you can spend this much bread on electronics.

Theta guys (not picking on you) spend on average how much per upgrade? 3-5k? the Six Shooter cost how much? DAC upgrades? The HDMI upgrade? My point is that many have chosen to jump ship based on the recurring expenses of keeping the Casablanca up to date- but those that have done just that sing its praises as loudly as they ever have.

Modularity isn't really a game changer when you look at sales of high-end processors:
Casablanca, Levinson 40, Cinema Reference/Rhapsody, Lexicon MC-12__, Meridian 861/whatever they call the new one, Halcro, Parasound Halo, Krell, TAG/McLaren, none have really dominated market share based on a modular design- in fact the biggest determining factor to market share size has been whether or not the company stays in business.

These are all topics I've covered with the guys at ADA since the Reference was announced- after all I have to justify a 40k processor as well. The bottom line for me was that I could instantly recognize a sonic difference between the Rhapsody and the Reference when I heard the Ref, once I knew the difference was audible- I had my justification.

Pease don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that that the Reference isn't an extreme device, there will probably be a 10:1 ratio of Rhapsody to Reference sales- but those that can make that expenditure do get rewarded.

Dan

$40k ?

yes, MSRP on the Cinema Reference is indeed $40,000. That is not a fabrication or misinformation.

Dan

Dan, I get the digital part, but if you get the ADA + TEQ wouldn't the TEQ unit use the same Trinnov DACs that are used in the Reference?

Yes, BUT the Reference does not contain the DACs that are normally used in the Suite 7.1 or Rhapsody- and there is your difference. When you have the TEQ after another ADA processor (or any processor for that matter) you hear the DACs of said processor coupled to the DACs Trinnov uses: good or bad. In the Reference, the only DACs are the ones Trinnov uses. There's an audible difference: more air, smoother, less fatiguing over time with high volume.

It's like Superior vs Extreme or GenVIII : the differences are there.

Dan

No doubt eliminating two conversions (one D/A and one A/D) from the signal path improves sound quality. Just wanted to re-emphasize that the DACs in the TEQ unit and the ADA reference are the same DACs. What is different is what is feeding these DACs. Direct digital for the Reference and D/A -> A/D converted signal for the TEQ.

It is ironic that an architecture that uses fewer components and just one chassis (i.e. the Reference), ends up costing more than the in principle more expensive to build architecture (ADA + TEQ). All this to circumvent HDCP restrictions on processing high rez signals in the digital domain.

That's not the whole story, though. The Reference is essentially a COMMERCIAL Trinnov @ 16 channels inside the same chassis as a Cinema Rhapsody. The processor chipset is different (Intel i5 vs Atom) ,and therefore computation is noticeably faster while running Trinnov optimization. There's the 10" touchscreen in the faceplate (@ 1080P resolution)- these are all items that add-up for the price.

Dan

I am still having trouble understanding the economics of the Reference. You take an 8K box (ADA MachIV), and a 20K box (Trinnov-Pro 16 channel), you strip out a bunch of hardware (ADA Dacs, Trinnov A/D converters), stick it in a single box and now you have a 40K box?

Now, the single box 40K sounds better than the 28K two boxes, so "value pricing" justifies the higher pricetag. Also the engineering and design cost of the single box have to be recovered from a very small number of units sold, which explains some of the cost.

I still think they would have been better off selling the Reference for 25K, competing head on with Meridan, Krell (and soon to be Theta Dirac).

Problem with that is it would render the 2 box ADA + TEQ system an unattractive combo relative to the single box reference.

Tough marketing decions...

I guess the options are there. Apparently the Reference unit is better but again is it worth the price? Only the consumers can answer. If I understand correctly, The Reference unit is commercial (as Dan said) and the Mach IV is for home use. I am not interested in the Reference since I don't need the extra channels...

More that the Trinnov unit inside the Reference is commercial: better processor, more channels, etc. At 40k, I expect the vast majority of people to say that the Rhapsody is the route to go for them. The people that are contemplating a Rhapsody AND TEQ-12 are the ones that are going to consider the Reference. I made the decision based on my time with the Rhapsody/TEQ-12.

Please make no mistake; the Reference is an extreme piece, intended for the very fringe of consumers that have not only the means, but also the passion to eek every last bit of performance out of their rooms/systems/experience for films and music. This thing is certainly NOT for everybody; I still feel that dollar-for-dollar the Rhapsody is the best processor on the market- not the best at everything, but it certainly "punches above it's weight class".

Dan

I am tempted to try a Mach IVb myself and do a shootout against the ud9004 + six shooter on MCH SACD. If it is as good or better, I can drastically simplify my system with little cash out. I would continue to use Trinnov A/D conversion and room correction on four channels in MCH mode, run digital directly into the Trinnov in stereo mode, and continue to use an external DAC for mains. The TEQ4 unit would not allow you to do this because it had no digital in/out.

It is unfortunate the Rhapsody never shows up used. I bit the bullet on the Trinnov, but I had buying digital stuff new and take a big depreciation hit down the road.

The alternative is to wait for Theta Dirac, but I won't do the upgrade unless they ship a new DAC card, so this would potentiall be a long wait and a big outlay.

Have you considered the Datasat RS20i with Dirac?

Way overkill and too much money. I am 80% 2 channel. I want my concert BR and MCH sacd to be up to snuff and that's it. The Mach IV + 4 channel trinnov pro foots the bill nicely. CBIII Dirac with new Dac card would be ok too, but more expensive and vaporware as of yet. I'm quite pleased with what I have, but if getting the Ada is a lateral move in SQ and cash flow neutral I'd do it to simplify my system.

Well I have just moved from an Ada suite 7.1hd to crm4 and could not be happier. 2 channel critical listening is very important to me, and as such I was going to get a linn klimax kontrol but I am now fully happy with the 2 channel direct bypass that the rhapsody offers.

I run my linn ak ds1 into the direct bypass for the critical work and then into the analogue inputs for not so critical listening. Here I use quad bypass and it's stunning.

But I did however do some shoot outs with my suite 7.1hd against denon AVp a1hd, classe ssp 800 and anthem d2v.

I found both the classe and anthem to be better on direct 2 channel music as the suite 7.1hd does not truly bypass. But on film work the anthem was better tan the classe and the Ada better than the anthem.

Both the anthem and classe were setup by their respective manufacturers and my Ada by me with no peq.

I would like very much to test the crm4 against the classe which I will do soon along with the bryston sp3. But it's not far off for stereo reproduction. Give it a digital input and not much will beat the rhapsody. The datasat perhaps with Dirac but that's about it before going into mega bucks.

You could consider this. Get a 4 channel trinnov pro unit. You run the Linn digital into the trinnov, apply bass management (if you have subs) and room correction, all stays in the the digital domain. You can either play 2 channel using the trinnov dacs or get an outboard dac (the pro has digital out). This should beat running the Linn through analog bypass hands down.

You can create a second preset on the trinnov that does A/D conversion on the ADA outputs when you play MCH. You would only |have 4 channels (mains, LFE and center), but that delivers 90% of the goods. Of course, if you want full 5.1 you could get the 8 channel pro unit (much pricier).

Remember that the Rhapsody has 7.1 channel analog bypass input - only an analog volume control after the input, for those extra concerned about SACD.

Dan

If for multi channel ("film work") the anthem beats the classe, and the ADA suite 7.1hd beats the anthem and the ADA Rhapsody beats the 7.1hd, doesn't it follow the classe is last of the pack and the rhapsody first? It would be interesting to see how the Bryston stacks up though.

When does the Bryston come out? I'm on my iPhone - gotta check out the specs and upgradability. When will you compare it to the ADA and dv2?

It is currently shipping. Read Kal's review in Stereophile.

Could you give some details on the shootout setup? None of the units were used with any EQ? How did all the preamps get switched into the same set of power amps? How were the channel speaker gains and bass management matched? 5.1 or 7.1 speakers? Same content? What content? How were playback volumes matched?

Are the analog record outputs on the mach4 always active? I'm trying to figure out if i can run an apple tv device to one of the hdmi ins and have analog out that will go to my control4 amp in for house wide audio that would come from my ipad.

you could use an airport express and it's available airplay feature- same thing but no conversion from digital to analog since the Express has an analog output (use 1/8" stereo to RCA cable).

Dan