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ADA Mach 4......WOW!!!! - Page 58

post #1711 of 2083
Just want to add.

On my old suite 7.1 hd and on crm4 I have peq boosts upto 6db and speaker levels from -3 for fronts, + 3-4 sides and rears and plus 11 for sub.

I have run movies upto 0 db on the dial and never experienced such clipping. I would be looking to see if you can get the firmware looked at. What versions are you both running.
post #1712 of 2083
Mines bang up to date, it's just come back from a service.

V 4_16

I need to carry out more checks before I can pin this down to the ADA. But like I said, Super 8 with Audyssey no PEQ, during the train crash, I thought the train was actually coming through my lounge it was that loud. Wonderful stuff. smile.gif
Edited by magicj1 - 6/29/12 at 4:28am
post #1713 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post

I experienced 'momentarily' audio drop out during heavy action scenes whilst watching Mission impossible 4. When this happens, if I rewind and play again at a lower level everything is fine.
Is this because my speakers levels are to high, or that I have a few PEQ levels set on a positive Gain, or a combination of both.?
This has nothing to do with PEQ. If there were any sort of clipping or overdriving in the DSP, it would be there regardless of the volume setting as the PEQ happens before the volume control.

Perhaps the AC power might be fluctuating excessively when the train crash is in full bloom. Do you run the ADA on a UPS? I do that (for both and processor and DVR) just to keep them happy if the power company sends me a glitch.
post #1714 of 2083
There are certainly some sounds in that scene that push the boundaries- I've heard what I thought was clipping in that scene as well; through the Rhapsody/TEQ and the RS20i both. I think it may actually be in the recording- I guess the way to tell would be to use really good in-ear monitors or headphones and check the sounds at low levels to see if that issue is there.

The sounds happen in the 15-20 seconds prior to that tank-car launching into the air; primarily the sounds that are background crashes to the metal-bending-impact sounds that stand out.

Dan
post #1715 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

This has nothing to do with PEQ. If there were any sort of clipping or overdriving in the DSP, it would be there regardless of the volume setting as the PEQ happens before the volume control.
Perhaps the AC power might be fluctuating excessively when the train crash is in full bloom. Do you run the ADA on a UPS? I do that (for both and processor and DVR) just to keep them happy if the power company sends me a glitch.

It isn't a power issue as it is repeatable.

The fact that turning the PEQ off or lowering the channel levels cures the issue would seem to imply it is related in some way.

Adam
post #1716 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post

It isn't a power issue as it is repeatable.
The fact that turning the PEQ off or lowering the channel levels cures the issue would seem to imply it is related in some way.
Adam

If it happens during the most dynamic scenes ,Chou likely have things at some frequencies boosted to the point where your speakers / Amos are saying, "uncle". That scene requires a lot of power and fortitudeocn your equipments part.

Try setting your PEQ to flat with no boosting of frequencies and I'll bet you're ok.

What speakers, Amos (power rating) are you using?
post #1717 of 2083
I can say that it will not be the amps. Angeleyes has ab international cinema amps.

Plus I fail to see why if indeed it was the amps that the pro should clip and protect..... It has no way of knowing if anything past it is clipping.

I have to agree on super8 soundtrack. It's really poorly mixed down. Levels are all over the show.

But if I can run that film thru my system into b&w 802d being powered by an emotiva budget amp at reference levels then I think it has to do with the dsp firmware on their units.
post #1718 of 2083
Maybe I missed it but which speaker(s) are clipping?

Is the ADA shutting down or the speakers bottoming out?
post #1719 of 2083
It is simply stacking of levels in dsp. Boost+trim gain+overall volume defines output. By design this is limited iirc to 110dB. If signal exceeds this then a mute protects from hard clipping aka blown tweeters!

This is not directly related to amps and speakers other than suggesting the use of both a relatively low gain amp and speakers. Say no more than 27db in the amp and 85 in speakers. Typically trim gain is the hidden culprit not peq boost.
post #1720 of 2083
I also observe the fact that if you used up all PEQ , a total of 96 , even with moderate boosts below 8db , there are frequent chances that the sub output will stop working requiring a reset to factory default .

I have the Suite master volume fixed to 0db and usng a high quality pre-amp (in my case , an Chord DSP8000) to do volume control , I think it sounds much better my way .

Larry
post #1721 of 2083
Thanks for chipping in Neil, as you know I was discussing it with Graham earlier, does anyone else give weekend support like that??? cool.gif

In my case I had some +5dB boosts on some speaker channels (but only cuts on the sub), however the sub level trim was at +7dB, when the cut-outs occurred it was all speakers going silent and not coming back on. It is a sensible safety feature for sure I just couldn't work out why it was happening but you learn something new every day in this hobby.

I 'cured' the issue by winding the sub amp gain up and dropping the sub trim level. redface.gif

Adam
post #1722 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelEyes View Post

It isn't a power issue as it is repeatable.
The fact that turning the PEQ off or lowering the channel levels cures the issue would seem to imply it is related in some way.
Hi Adam,

Being repeatable does not mean it is not related to the AC mains. Turning off PEQ or reducing gains is consistent with the possibility that the AC mains are dropping under load of the power amps' current draw. Have you never seen an incandescent light dim momentarily when the system hits a peak?

I see that you say the problem is avoided by shifting the gain structure of the subwoofer. I presume that you did a 1 for 1 exchange (-6 dB in ADA, + 6dB in sub) so the SPL remains the same. If the ADA output was actually clipping, then such protection would be perfectly reasonable, and the rebalancing of the gains will make perfect sense as an effective remedy.

Does ADA mention that is has such a clip protection feature?
Edited by Roger Dressler - 6/30/12 at 12:30pm
post #1723 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Hi Adam,
Being repeatable does not mean it is not related to the AC mains. Turning off PEQ or reducing gains is consistent with the possibility that the AC mains are dropping under load of the power amps' current draw. Have you never seen an incandescent light dim momentarily when the system hits a peak?
I see that you say the problem is avoided by shifting the gain structure of the subwoofer. I presume that you did a 1 for 1 exchange (-6 dB in ADA, + 6dB in sub) so the SPL remains the same. If the ADA output was actually clipping, then such protection would be perfectly reasonable, and the rebalancing of the gains will make perfect sense as an effective remedy.
Does ADA mention that is has such a clip protection feature?

Hi Roger,

Sorry I misunderstood the mains issue you mentioned. I haven't noticed any brown-outs during playback but I would have thought my amps would be able to store enough juice for the kind of peaks you get in movies, however what do I know smile.gif

I did make sure I matched the SPL level correctly so overall volume was identical when changing sub gain and levels.

Adam smile.gif
post #1724 of 2083
Roger - you don't have the benefit of knowing half the guys on this thread are from the uk! 240v mains plus 32A ring mains means we almost never have problems with mains sag in the way you mention.
post #1725 of 2083
I'd like a way to defeat this. Can't speak for all but the ADA would blow up before my subs or LCRS would.
post #1726 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

Roger - you don't have the benefit of knowing half the guys on this thread are from the uk! 240v mains plus 32A ring mains means we almost never have problems with mains sag in the way you mention.
Forgot about Metric power! tongue.gif
post #1727 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

It is simply stacking of levels in dsp. Boost+trim gain+overall volume defines output. By design this is limited iirc to 110dB. If signal exceeds this then a mute protects from hard clipping aka blown tweeters!
This is not directly related to amps and speakers other than suggesting the use of both a relatively low gain amp and speakers. Say no more than 27db in the amp and 85 in speakers. Typically trim gain is the hidden culprit not peq boost.

Thanks Neil. I now know where I have been gong wrong.
post #1728 of 2083
I am currently running my Marantz UD9004 with six shooter into the Trinnov 4 channel processer (3.0) mode. The Trinnov applies A/D conversion to the analog signal coming in. Surround channels are bypassing the Trinnov and only level matched with the L/R/C using the six shooter. I just sold my subs because I will take possesion of the Evolution Acoustics MM3's in two weeks time, which have 4 x 15" powered woofer units. Critial MCH listening is SACD and concert Blu Ray.

Intruiged by the good ADA Mach IV vibes going around, and the possibility of simplyfying my system, I got my hands on a demo Mach IVb at a price that would make it an easy resale if things don't work out. If equivalent to UD9004 + Six Shooter, I could ditch the Marantz for an Oppo 93, lose a lot of cables and the Theta + Six Shooter combo. Less complexity and a cash flow positive move to boot.

ONLY criteria for me to pull the trigger was sound quality equivalence between (1) playing MCH SACD straigth from the UD9004 + Six Shooter in DSD direct mode into the Trinnov, and (2) playing MCH SACD trough the ADA + Oppo combo at 88/24 DSD to LPCM conversion over HDMI. This was a long shot from the outset, but I wanted to give it a try. I used my two identical copies of dark side of the moon SACD allowing me to A/B switch in real time, Long story short, the ADA + Oppo did not make the cut. Marantz + SS beats it handily on SACD. I only have two identical DVD in good old Dolby 5.1 (Pat Metheny). This was a closer contest, more "body" for the Marantz, but slightly more transparency in the highs for the ADA. A matter of personal preference.

I believe this is no indictment on the ADA + Oppo hardware, but rather proof of the superiority of the DSD direct signal path on SACD, and testimony to the quality of the Marantz DACs and the transparency of the six shooter. The ADA is up for sale on audiogon. Great processor, but if you don't need input switching, do decoding in a universal player, bass management and room correction/EQ in another processor, you are better off cutting it out of the chain. Very few people meet this criteria, and my system is a bit of an anomaly, but this week-end's shootout confirmed it works beatifully. For the record, Curt @ Trinnov is also an advocate of running sources direclty into the Trinnov if you can get away with it (which most people cannot).
Edited by edorr - 7/2/12 at 7:28am
post #1729 of 2083
I think the Ada gear is ok at music repropduction. And the crm4 being a bit better than the suite 7.1hd.

But these really come to life when fed a blu ray hd codec.

I also found the oppo to be a, well, not so great dvdA and SACD player. I much preferred the sound of my old yamaha DVD s2700. By a long way.

Have you tried the ud9004 into the Ada? I think that would be a pretty amazing combo.

Tbh, all trinnov need to do is add an hdmi stage and license some Dolby / dts hd codecs and they would have a pretty unbeatable pre/pro.
post #1730 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

I also found the oppo to be a, well, not so great dvdA and SACD player. I much preferred the sound of my old yamaha DVD s2700. By a long way.

I trust the conventional wisdom what as an HDMI transport the Oppo is a top notch performer. Surely you can squeeze a bit more out of some other transports, but I would be shocked if this was such a material difference it would change the findings of my shootout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Have you tried the ud9004 into the Ada? I think that would be a pretty amazing combo.

Agains, as an HDMI transport for Blu Ray, differences should be small. For SACD the Oppo should win, because the Marantz downsamples SACD to 48/24.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Tbh, all trinnov need to do is add an hdmi stage and license some Dolby / dts hd codecs and they would have a pretty unbeatable pre/pro.

If it was that simple, Theta would not take 3 years to do a project of this nature. Also, ADA would not be amused, since they just released the 40K reference unit, spending substantial R&D funds integrating a MachIV with a Trinnov processor in a single chassis.
post #1731 of 2083
Yer, sorry. I forgot you were running hdmi. I totally prefer the sound of DVDA / SACD from analogue outs. But as said, the old yammy kicks the oppos butt in that area.

And perhaps if trinnov were to do such a thing they could leave off the flashy built in screen. So as not to tread on toes, lol.
post #1732 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Yer, sorry. I forgot you were running hdmi. I totally prefer the sound of DVDA / SACD from analogue outs. But as said, the old yammy kicks the oppos butt in that area.

It was a long shot from the outset. There is a reason ADA has six channel analog inputs for SACD / DVD-A. Problem is, if I stick with the analog signal path, I might as well keep my Theta + Six shooter, this is (A) cheaper, and (B) the SIx Shooter is very likely better than the analog bypass in the ADA.
post #1733 of 2083
Guys,
I have Harmony 1 remote and I downloaded the Suit 7.1 commands but they are all over the place. Apparently Logitech does not have the commands for Rhapsody Mach IV. I sent to Logitech the hex codes which are attached on the back of the Rhaposdy manual and I was told they do not work and they need the hex/ pronto codes. I am not sure what is the difference but if somebody has them I would appreciate if you could send them to me. I found the Logitech service really outstanding and if I could get these codes, this will benefit all Rhapsody Mach owners. Thanks in advance.
post #1734 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamenoff View Post

Guys,
I have Harmony 1 remote and I downloaded the Suit 7.1 commands but they are all over the place. Apparently Logitech does not have the commands for Rhapsody Mach IV. I sent to Logitech the hex codes which are attached on the back of the Rhaposdy manual and I was told they do not work and they need the hex/ pronto codes. I am not sure what is the difference but if somebody has them I would appreciate if you could send them to me. I found the Logitech service really outstanding and if I could get these codes, this will benefit all Rhapsody Mach owners. Thanks in advance.

Suite 7.1 HD and Rhapsody use the exact same codes.

Adam
post #1735 of 2083
If you're talking about the Mach IV IR codes, they are a disaster. Some are "all over the place" and others are completely missing or non-functional.
post #1736 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfectionist2 View Post

If you're talking about the Mach IV IR codes, they are a disaster. Some are "all over the place" and others are completely missing or non-functional.

I would bet very few use IR. Even if the codes were all working, RS-232 / IP commands are bulletproof and fast!
post #1737 of 2083
Here are the codes I dug out from trawling the net before I went RS232, not many here but enough for day to day use.

http://www.livedigital.co.uk/review-ada-suite-7-1-hd/7/

Adam smile.gif
post #1738 of 2083
Cheers..Appreciated.
post #1739 of 2083
My home theater is now finished and have been enjoying movies for about a month now. All my equipment was programmed/setup by my custom installer.

The Oppo is wired via HDMI to my Runco DHD4 and then from the Runco HDMI audio out to the ADA Mach 4B.

If I set the Oppo for bittstream or LPCM I get different results with the ADA. If I use bittstream the DTS logo appears on the ADA display. LPCM I don't get the DTS logo.

When playing 7.1 DTS-HD blu rays I never get the DTS-HD logo on my ADA to light up. Only DTS. When I try using direct 7.1 It still doesn not light up and it looks like only 5.1 is coming in. The Oppo clearly shows the DTS-HD logo on the display.

Can anyone shed light on this?

thanks

Michel
post #1740 of 2083
Could be that since the Oppo is unpacking the DTS track, there is no flag to the ADA.

As a general rule, have the ADA receive the bitstreamed track. LPCM was needed in HDMI 1.2 and lower SSPs years ago, but there is really no need for it anymore in Blu Ray movie tracks.
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