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ADA Mach 4......WOW!!!! - Page 62

post #1831 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

I was having a play with modes today on my crm4. When I have a 5.1 Dolby dig source pl2x will only give me 5.1 out. Switch to discrete es/ex and I get full 7.1.
Any ideas. As far as I can see everything in the software is set right.
This problem sounds familiar -- something that was discussed a year ago and addressed with a firmware update (see this post). You might check into that.
post #1832 of 2083
Ah I remember reading about this now.

So if it does turn out to be a firmware issue, should ths be covered by warranty or will the be a chargeable fix?
post #1833 of 2083
Hi,

I own both a Trinnov MC and an ADA Mach IV HD.
I plan to buy a master world clock (Anteloppe Trinity) to use with the Trinnov (significantly improves DA conversion : much more details and biggest soundstage and precision).
I know moders (ModWright , Audiocom, asitek, ..) sometimes propose to replace the internal clock (example : http://www.asi-tek.com/NeutronStar.html).
I do not want to change the internal clock inside the ADA unit ... But I would to be able to have a world clock input, to synchronize timing between multiple devices.

FYI : Trinity master clock ables to drive serveral units (3 Independent & simultaneous audio generators up to 384kHz).

Do you know if these kind of modification is possible on the ADA unit ? Maybe someone here has experienced it.

Regards.
post #1834 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

Hi,
I own both a Trinnov MC and an ADA Mach IV HD.
I plan to buy a master world clock (Anteloppe Trinity) to use with the Trinnov (significantly improves DA conversion : much more details and biggest soundstage and precision).
I know moders (ModWright , Audiocom, asitek, ..) sometimes propose to replace the internal clock (example : http://www.asi-tek.com/NeutronStar.html).
I do not want to change the internal clock inside the ADA unit ... But I would to be able to have a world clock input, to synchronize timing between multiple devices.
FYI : Trinity master clock ables to drive serveral units (3 Independent & simultaneous audio generators up to 384kHz).
Do you know if these kind of modification is possible on the ADA unit ? Maybe someone here has experienced it.
Regards.

Tell us about your impressions on the combo.

Thanks!
post #1835 of 2083
I did replace already the internal clock on a Cary Audio unit (cinema 11a).
Huge improvement, really.

But it's not the right place to discuss of that. My concern is to get a wc input on the ADA unit.
This is not the same thing ...
post #1836 of 2083
Gotcha,

But tell me about the effects of bass, soundstage, etc with the current (non WC) ADA MACH IV/MC combo.

I have a MACH IV and am thinking TEQ / MC. Just general impressions. Thanks

What source are you using? Modded Oppo for a digital multichannel into the MC?
post #1837 of 2083
For my point of view, the original Trinnov MC unit is better than TEQ but it is most oriented pro (DB25 connectors, i/o wc, ...).
Why better ?

-Much more possibilities
--> like adding digital cards (instead of analogic cards).
--> Better quality of the power supply management.
--> World clock i/o !! There are many differences like with or without remapping (by analogy).
--> You can upgrade it whatever you want (number of chanels).

AND your are sure to benefit of the last functionalities offered by Trinnov company (your unit will be up to date anytime).

To be honest, I could not live without a Trinnov !!
Ok this is a significant investment but what a result !!!
It's fully customizable (infinite number of profiles, curves, bass management, able to drive active/passive speakers, ...).

Regarding my sources : Oppo 93 (modded by Asi-Tek) / Logitech SB Touch (modded by Fidelity Audio).
So :

Oppo --hdmi--> ADA --analogic--> Trinnov ----> power amp --> speakers
OR
SB Touch --spdif--> ADA --analogic--> Trinnov ----> power amp --> speakers
Edited by Sound&Life - 9/20/12 at 1:03pm
post #1838 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

So :
Oppo --hdmi--> ADA --analogic--> Trinnov ----> power amp --> speakers
OR
SB Touch --spdif--> ADA --analogic--> Trinnov ----> power amp --> speakers

Is there a converter / means for a digital output from the modded Oppo (with an adapter) to the digital DB-25 input of the Trinnov directly (bypassing the ADA)?
post #1839 of 2083
You can use a spdif/AES converter and plug the SB Touch (or the Oppo for 2ch/stereo) directly to the Trinnov.
But to be honest, there is no difference at listening between both solutions.
Multiple conversions has no effect when using top of the art units !!

For the Oppo, there is no reason bypassing the ADA MAch IV unit (for HT use) !!!
There is no comparison between how the Oppo do the job and how the ada do it (decoding, quality of the analog / digital parts, ...).
In addition, there is no codec inside the Trinnov allowing him to perform the job of the ADA.

For my own use, the Oppo (like the SB touch) is just a player.
Edited by Sound&Life - 9/21/12 at 5:26am
post #1840 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

--> World clock i/o !!

Regarding my sources : Oppo 93 (modded by Asi-Tek) / Logitech SB Touch (modded by Fidelity Audio).
So :
Oppo --hdmi--> ADA --analogic--> Trinnov ----> power amp --> speakers
OR
SB Touch --spdif--> ADA --analogic--> Trinnov ----> power amp --> speakers
It would seem to me that there are two possible aspects regarding use of an external wordclock generator. Timing and jitter. The main purpose for WC is to force all devices within a complex "plant" to share the same timebase, so that multiple sources (A/D converters, disc players) which otherwise unilaterally decide the clock rate do not conflict. This is important when two or more sources connected digitally must converge live, as in a mixer.

In your system, that issue does not exist. When the ADA selects a source, it slaves to it and ignores any others present. The Trinnov, connected with analog inputs, is immune to any of that, and just uses its own local clock. No problems at all.

If you could connect a wordclock to the ADA, it would not be able to use it except for analog sources because it has to follow the clock of the digital source signal.

If the Trinnov's clock has excessive jitter, perhaps there would be some improvement using an external wordclock, but I have not seen evidence that Trinnov's is lacking, nor that an external one will do any better, specs notwithstanding.
post #1841 of 2083
Agreed.

Most of those who have listened the combo (Trinnov + master wc) are unanimous.
You get much more details and biggest soundstage with than without.

And yet, Trinnov's clock is not cheap junk...
post #1842 of 2083
Sound&Life, is your MC8 unit analog or digital? If you have the digital have you tried to connect a direct digital signal into the Trinnov?
post #1843 of 2083
analog only (but i could add another cards like aes or trs).
But some guys here have a AES version.

I wanted to know if someone here listened already to both ADA and Bryston SP3 ?
There is no match available on any forum ....
Edited by Sound&Life - 9/21/12 at 5:25am
post #1844 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

But to be honest, there is no difference at listening between both solutions.

Since you don't have a digital input into your Trinnov, and have not been able to compare digital in and analog in with A/D conversion how can you draw this conclusion? I have a different experience. There is no comparison between an Oppo via HDMI into an ADA and then analog into Trinnov with A/D conversion and direct digital input. I am not speculating - I tried this at home. Two caveats. First, if you use the standard Oppo coax digital output for 2 channel, you may be compromising the digital signal because it is allegedly a pretty mediocre. With the modded, reclocked Oppo with digi out card or a better digital transport on two channel, the differences are night and day. Second, if you screw up the S/PDIF to AES/EBU conversion / impedance matching the benefits are highly compromised as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

Multiple conversions has no effect when using top of the art units !!

Quite the opposite. The better your system, the better you hear differences in the signal path.
post #1845 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

If the Trinnov's clock has excessive jitter, perhaps there would be some improvement using an external wordclock, but I have not seen evidence that Trinnov's is lacking, nor that an external one will do any better, specs notwithstanding.
Provided the owner doesn't bugger the clock settings, eh Roger? wink.giftongue.gif
post #1846 of 2083
Quote:
Since you don't have a digital input into your Trinnov, and have not been able to compare digital in and analog in with A/D conversion how can you draw this conclusion? I have a different experience. There is no comparison between an Oppo via HDMI into an ADA and then analog into Trinnov with A/D conversion and direct digital input. I am not speculating - I tried this at home. Two caveats. First, if you use the standard Oppo coax digital output for 2 channel, you may be compromising the digital signal because it is allegedly a pretty mediocre. With the modded, reclocked Oppo with digi out card or a better digital transport on two channel, the differences are night and day. Second, if you screw up the S/PDIF to AES/EBU conversion / impedance matching the benefits are highly compromised as well.

I didn't test it at home but I heard already the test elsewhere....
Oppo is a great player, really but it is not able to support the comparison with ADA : DA or AD conversion, analog / digit stages, clock & Anti-jitter circuits. Dolby / DTS decoders (Algorythms), ...
Be sure I would not have bought an ADA if the Oppo is equivalent in term of quality/performance....

Quote:
Quite the opposite. The better your system, the better you hear differences in the signal path.

Disagreed.
I have to look for the link I'm going to refer (will post it later).
Measurements were done on some systems with DA AD/DA conversions.
--> any alteration on measured curves (or nothing that can be heard if using top of tha art units).

(example : Professional recording/mixing studios).

PS: Here in France, 10yrs we use Trinnov ...
Edited by Sound&Life - 9/21/12 at 6:56am
post #1847 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

I didn't test it at home but I heard already the test elsewhere....
Oppo is a great player, really but it is not able to support the comparison with ADA : DA or AD conversion, analog / digit stages, clock & Anti-jitter circuits. Dolby / DTS decoders (Algorythms), ...
Be sure I would not have bought an ADA if the Oppo is equivalent in term of quality/performance....

A modded Oppo with reclocking digital into a Trinnov beats going through an ADA with A/D conversion hands down. I tried this at home. If you can live with the limitation of having no post processing and you do all bass management in the Trinnov the digital input route this is the best signal path, provided you have a high quality digital source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

Disagreed.
I have to look for the link I'm going to refer (will post it later).
Measurements were done on some systems with DA AD/DA conversions.
--> any alteration on measured curves (or nothing that can be heard).
(example : Professional recording/mixing studios).
PS: Here in France, 10yrs we use Trinnov ...

How can you disagree that you are more likely to hear changes in the signal path on a more resolving system? May be I am misunderstanding. Also, how can you tell from comparing two curves what sound better, or conclude from comparing two curves there is no audible difference?

Also, the quality of the A/D conversion is clearly a factor - however, the Trinnov is hardly the final word in A/D conversion. The studio doing a lot of the transfers from analog tape to high rez digital for HD tracks uses the MSB platinum which is $30K for just two channels.
post #1848 of 2083
Quote:
A modded Oppo with reclocking digital into a Trinnov beats going through an ADA with A/D conversion hands down.

Have you tried listening to a modded Oppo without reclocking? The JVB mod and and plain Vanity (not 93) do not have reclocking. Putting two reclockers in series does not guarantee lower jitter, otherwise we would be adding reclockers willy nilly. The jitter could actually increase.
Quote:
Second, if you screw up the S/PDIF to AES/EBU conversion / impedance matching the benefits are highly compromised as well.

What do you mean by this? How are doing the conversion? Are you increasing the S/PDIF voltage or just trying to impedance match? If there is an RCA plug anywhere you have not impedance matched. I understood it was generally agreed (Hansen, Lavry) that for short runs (say under 2m) a conversion is not necessary nor desired.
post #1849 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

Have you tried listening to a modded Oppo without reclocking? The JVB mod and and plain Vanity (not 93) do not have reclocking. Putting two reclockers in series does not guarantee lower jitter, otherwise we would be adding reclockers willy nilly. The jitter could actually increase.

No, I never tried. But a lot of folks report the standard oppo coax digital output is pretty mediocre, so I would not advise going the straight LPCM pass thru route of these boards. I have an outstanding offer from Bulldogger for a wager that the JVB board (Shawn Fogg) also reclocks, (I declined the wager), but that is a different issue. The vanity lite board certainly does not reclock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

What do you mean by this? How are doing the conversion? Are you increasing the S/PDIF voltage or just trying to impedance match? If there is an RCA plug anywhere you have not impedance matched. I understood it was generally agreed (Hansen, Lavry) that for short runs (say under 2m) a conversion is not necessary nor desired.

I am using the Z-system Z8 digital router, which also convertes S/PDIF to AES/EBU. I did my proof of concept on 2 channel with a cheap short run of a 75 Ohm cable terminated RCA one end and XLR on the other, which worked OK. However, I also used a Canare adaptor which totally sucked - probably because of bandwidth restrictions on the canare). I now use two Transparent audio digital cables (1600 MSRP a each) (one S/DIF into the Z system and one AES/EBU out) for the mains with much better result. Cabling really makes a difference.
post #1850 of 2083
SO what is the hardware needed from a modded Oppo to the digital input of an MC? Start with what output type is coming out of the Oppo all the way to the DB 25 adapter? I don't have a clear understanding of what adapters are needed. Thanks!
post #1851 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

SO what is the hardware needed from a modded Oppo to the digital input of an MC? Start with what output type is coming out of the Oppo all the way to the DB 25 adapter? I don't have a clear understanding of what adapters are needed. Thanks!

You can do a few things:

1. Get 4 short (cheap!) S/PDIF to AES/EBU cables and connect directly to the XLR end of your AES/EBU to DB25 cable.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/410703-REG/Lynx_Studio_Technology_CBL_XMDR18_CBL_XMDR18_RCA_Male_to.html

2. Have a DB25 cable custom terminated with RCAs one one end

3. Get a Z System Z8 and run four S/PDIF in and connect your AES/EBU cables to the outputs of the Z-system.

4. You can also get 4 individual AES/EBU to S/PDIF adapters connect these to your DB25 to AES/EBU cable, and use 4 S/PDIF cables.

I think option 3 or 4 would be the best.
post #1852 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Provided the owner doesn't bugger the clock settings, eh Roger? wink.giftongue.gif
tongue.gif If only the effects of jitter were so pronounced!
post #1853 of 2083
I know 2 pro audio installators (there are only 3 mandated by Trinnov).
They have tested with and without a master clock...
It's not a question about Trinnov's clock quality (pretty good).

BUT the sound is much better with than w/o.
My seller will lend me a master clock for testing it at home (Anteloppe Trinity).
If there is no improvement for my ears, I'll send it back to the seller. wink.gif
Edited by Sound&Life - 9/25/12 at 3:05am
post #1854 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

A modded Oppo with reclocking digital into a Trinnov beats going through an ADA with A/D conversion hands down. I tried this at home. If you can live with the limitation of having no post processing and you do all bass management in the Trinnov the digital input route this is the best signal path, provided you have a high quality digital source.
How can you disagree that you are more likely to hear changes in the signal path on a more resolving system? May be I am misunderstanding. Also, how can you tell from comparing two curves what sound better, or conclude from comparing two curves there is no audible difference?
Also, the quality of the A/D conversion is clearly a factor - however, the Trinnov is hardly the final word in A/D conversion. The studio doing a lot of the transfers from analog tape to high rez digital for HD tracks uses the MSB platinum which is $30K for just two channels.

Theory is one thing, listening is another wink.gif
BUT I will do the test (in stereo)

My Oppo (modded) --spdif ---> (spdif/AES adapter) ---> Trinnov (AES card).

My seller (Trinnov mandated) did this test with a Oppo 95 (not modded).
He much prefers the Oppo plugged to the Trinnov in analogic.

To be continued ...
post #1855 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

Theory is one thing, listening is another wink.gif
BUT I will do the test (in stereo)
My Oppo (modded) --spdif ---> (spdif/AES adapter) ---> Trinnov (AES card).
My seller (Trinnov mandated) did this test with a Oppo 95 (not modded).
He much prefers the Oppo plugged to the Trinnov in analogic.
To be continued ...

Should be interesting. Few thoughts/questions:

What mod does your Oppo and how does it improve the S/PDIF output? Do you have another, possibly better digital source to go into the Trinnov direct?

Most S/PDIF to AES/EBU adaptors are resticted to 48/24. I tried a canare and this totally screwed things up. Make sure you get the right one, or possibly just a short run of RCA / XLR terminated digital cable.

If you add a $4500 Antilope clock into the mix outcomes may change. Few people will go down this path. You should try this without the clock as well to be able to tell if "all else being equal" the Oppo digital direct beats the Oppo HDMI ->ADA -> Trinnov with A/D conversion signal path.
post #1856 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Should be interesting. Few thoughts/questions:
What mod does your Oppo and how does it improve the S/PDIF output? Do you have another, possibly better digital source to go into the Trinnov direct?
Most S/PDIF to AES/EBU adaptors are resticted to 48/24. I tried a canare and this totally screwed things up. Make sure you get the right one, or possibly just a short run of RCA / XLR terminated digital cable.
If you add a $4500 Antilope clock into the mix outcomes may change. Few people will go down this path. You should try this without the clock as well to be able to tell if "all else being equal" the Oppo digital direct beats the Oppo HDMI ->ADA -> Trinnov with A/D conversion signal path.

About my Oppo:

Elaborate Power supply upgrades
NewClassD Neutron Star Flagship Clock (master clock replacement) => Precision better than +/- 0.2 ppm [http://www.asi-tek.com/NeutronStar.html].
NewClassD Ultra Low Noise Power Supply Upgrade (115v/230v)
Damping to chassis & transport plus new E-A-R isolation feet
Bybee : 2x for AC + 1 gold for the clock
Cryogenic treatment to circuit boards after work is completed
.



I have no another digital source better than the Oppo...
For spdif to AES adaptors, the following one is a "best have" : http://www.neutrik.com/en/accessories/aes/ebu-impedance-transformers/naditbnc-fx
post #1857 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

About my Oppo:
Elaborate Power supply upgrades
NewClassD Neutron Star Flagship Clock (master clock replacement) => Precision better than +/- 0.2 ppm [http://www.asi-tek.com/NeutronStar.html].
NewClassD Ultra Low Noise Power Supply Upgrade (115v/230v)
Damping to chassis & transport plus new E-A-R isolation feet
Bybee : 2x for AC + 1 gold for the clock
Cryogenic treatment to circuit boards after work is completed
.
I have no another digital source better than the Oppo...
For spdif to AES adaptors, the following one is a "best have" : http://www.neutrik.com/en/accessories/aes/ebu-impedance-transformers/naditbnc-fx

But you have tested and prefer the analog input of the MC rather than the digital input using the Neutrik AES/SPIF adapters?

Thanks!
post #1858 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

About my Oppo:
Elaborate Power supply upgrades
NewClassD Neutron Star Flagship Clock (master clock replacement) => Precision better than +/- 0.2 ppm [http://www.asi-tek.com/NeutronStar.html].
NewClassD Ultra Low Noise Power Supply Upgrade (115v/230v)
Damping to chassis & transport plus new E-A-R isolation feet
Bybee : 2x for AC + 1 gold for the clock
Cryogenic treatment to circuit boards after work is completed
.

I have no another digital source better than the Oppo...
For spdif to AES adaptors, the following one is a "best have" : http://www.neutrik.com/en/accessories/aes/ebu-impedance-transformers/naditbnc-fx

Oppo is top notch - no issues there. On 2 channel S/PDIF digital out into Trinnov - this should beat an A/D converted signal going through an ADA hands down. However, the neutrik adapter has a frequency band 0,1 MHz to 6 MHz. I believe this limits it to 48/24 so on high rez 2 channel sources this will not work. If you play 2 channel SACD digital out as 88/24 PCM it will not sound good going through this adaptor. Better to use this $5 piece of cable

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/373047.html
post #1859 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland 
But you have tested and prefer the analog input of the MC rather than the digital input using the Neutrik AES/SPIF adapters?
Thanks!

Not yet.
post #1860 of 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr 
Oppo is top notch - no issues there. On 2 channel S/PDIF digital out into Trinnov - this should beat an A/D converted signal going through an ADA hands down. However, the neutrik adapter has a frequency band 0,1 MHz to 6 MHz. I believe this limits it to 48/24 so on high rez 2 channel sources this will not work. If you play 2 channel SACD digital out as 88/24 PCM it will not sound good going through this adaptor. Better to use this $5 piece of cable
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/373047.html

Thanks for letting me know.
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