ADA Mach 4......WOW!!!! - Page 10

Allen:

Thanks again for catching my error. There is no Cinema Reference Mach IV and no current plans in the work for one. Our focus is on the TEQ right now and will be until we are in full swing.

Unfortunately all our preamps are in high demand right now which makes it difficult to even keep units set aside for review. A good problem to have but none the less one that precludes us from providing any better arrangement than our existing Test Drive. Should this change, I will post here.

As for your position regarding blindly purchasing products, I feel the same way about my purchases and very much respect your position.

Yes it's the halcro owner. I figure that once the mechanics of the calibration are complete, doing a direct A-B comparison should be pretty easy. Of course there's the added complication of doing a demo for the DPI LED projector as well, all in the span of 2 days. I can't wait, it'll be just like old times!

Dan

Dan,

If you are performing your first calibration this weekend then please make sure that you are familiar with the Solo Test functions. These will help to dramatically speed and improve your calibration.

If you are using an analogue signal generator then you can attach it to any analogue input and then select the processing mode Mono5 which redirects to every channel. Then just use Solo Test to select the channels you are interested.

If you have the Rhapsody connected to a router then you can do it all via Wi Fi from the main chair - very cool!

If this is your first time setup then I would also strongly suggest that you make sure you have two way comms with the EQ software as it is a little different from the normal setup software and can require you to change the IP settings on the device.

All very easy but you want to be able to do that whilst support is available if it is the first time for you.

Oh...

For the DPI demo try...

Colourspace and signal type = Auto
Colour temp = 6500K
Gamma = Film
Brilliant Colour = Off
Contrast Enhance = Off
Dynamic Black = On (or whatever the control is called)

Then it is a couple of clicks on brightness and contrast. You could spend another hpur or so calibrating but the benefits are in the order of a few dE which may or may not be relevant for your client.

Richard_ADA

Thanks for the clarification. I wish ADA all the best and in this economy that will be a very big wish indeed.

Meaningless? Really? Without speculation, hopefully tied to known past issues with other designs, where would one begin to look for problems and successes?

As I said Fanboys do not want to hear it so there you go. Fingers squarely and deeply planted in your ears.

I see what most here are excited about and I do not want to diminish that excitement but I do also want to clarify that IMO this SSP is not SOTA just Mid- Fi and as such is priced accordingly. It these price points there is only so much one can do and I know this.

I was more curious as Jeff had crapped all over every Theta thread to the point of having the moderators lock them rather than telling HIM to move on or shut up. Once I got here I saw not SOTA but Mid-Fi and thought I would point out some potential issues I saw for those here who would welcome another side or observation. For it's price it is fair and should do well as this seems to be where the bulk of the market is and rightly so.

Does it belong in the Ultra Highend ($20,000+ ) forum?
No!
Not IMO.
But that is a topic for another day.

Enjoy!

I really do hate it when people start throwing around the 'fanboy' term. Always strikes me as the 'home theater argument of last resort' when the debate is being lost.

Regardless, you are probably right that this unit is not state-of-the-art - but it is also, I suspect, much more than just mid-fi. Despite what one might think about them, it is hard to believe that processors like the Meridian 861/621 and Krell 707 don't offer a lot more for a lot more (both around $30K). There is at least one chap here who is replacing a Meridian 861 (albeit a v4) with the ADA, so it will be very interesting to hear what he thinks.

If discussions on this forum really were limited to components costing in excess of $20K, it'd be a much less lively place to vist IMO.

this thread is staying right here: please limit posts to technical issues

What really do you know w/o hearing it? Judging w/o hearing defines fingers in ears, no? Defines fanboy too.

We can talk features but only guess at SQ. Looking at parts and making a judgement at this level is silly. Does an 861 or 707 have 4x the parts cost of the ADA? Possibly not even 2x. Having owned an SSD 66THX way back when which was an excellent piece in its day, I'll guess the Mach IV will be great, but that's as far as I'll take it. Have owned and liked Theta and Meridian too so it's not fanboy, it's just rationality.

That would be me and to be perfectly clear I am repalcing a Meridin 861v4/621 combination with the ADA Cinema Rhapsody MACH IV B...

The full results of my comparison / thoughts will be posted once the system is fully calibrated but, that said, rest assured that I will be brutally honest regardless of which way the cookie crumbles...

At present, and to get things somewhat back on track, please note:

1. I have thoughts on the control and software implementation of the two;

2. I have learnt -- thanks to Richard_ADA-- that the front panel blacnking fetaure is already available; and

3. I have experienced the difference in the level of direct to consumer support that is available from the two companies...

Should there be enough interest I can / will post these now although my initial thought was to post 1 comprehensive review...

Allen thanks for the good wishes. So far we are off to a very good start.

I for one would be happy to hear your observations on an ongoing basis, instead of waiting for a comprehensive review.

Might even help keep this thread OT...

Neil thanks for the tips, this isn't the first ADA processor I've setup so I'm familiar with all the various options and tricks to the process. I also appreciate the input on the M-vision LED, but again this is also not my first dance with this device either.

I do want to take this opportunity to say that your involvement with this thread and other pertaining to lines you carry has been very informative and useful. Please don't take this the wrong way when I tell you that you don't fit the typical mold of the "rep-tile" that I'm used to as a dealer. I'm sure that both DPI and the guys at ADA are very happy that you're the one repping their products in the UK.

Thanks again for the tips, I'll have to remember the time difference over the weekend if I get stuck late- you may get a PM.

Dan

Sorry, but I have to comment on this. Yes, it does belong in the Ultra Hi-End forum, simply based on its performance. Even if it is sub $20k, it's an excellent performer and will blow most competitors away. It's in my Top 3 manufacturers list, into which the Krell 707 didn't make it despite it's over $20k.

The good thing about Allen coming here is that is own words damaged him more than anyone's comments.

I'm the guy with the ADA Mach IVB, however, my Halcro SSP200 is broken so we can't do a comparison.

Here are my initial thoughts and short summary on a number of points:

Aesthetics

This is a matter of personal choice / taste and I will call this one a draw in that:

- Meridian's form factor (i.e. box) looks better on a table top than in a rack but it lacks a modern display (i.e. there one line display simply does not cut it in today's agae especially for a $25,000+ unit)...the scrolling that one has to do to get basic information can be painful.

- ADA's form factor looks great in a rack (at least I think so noting that my unit has the rack ears for mounting but not the rack handles, thank you Richard)...the ADA display is much more informative and modern than the Meridian's.



Computer Software/Configuration Utility

Meridian and ADA each have their own approach and thus their own learning curves...

Meridian's software is easier to learn as it leads the user using a cookie/crumb trail approach that was -- at least for me -- rather intuitive. Meridian's software is also a little easier to manage / save because all the information is saved in one file.

ADA's software is more difficult to learn and more more difficult to manage (i.e. there is one file that saves the "configuration input parameters" [i.e. Defaults / Cinema Rhapsody tab in the configuration software, these are *.C43 files] and there is a one file that saves the "other parameters" [i.e. all other tabs in the configuration software, these are *.C4P type files] noting those that have played with the software will understand this). ADA's software is -- at least to me -- written by engineers for engineers.

ADA's software took me about 2 hours to learn and understand but once I understood the paradigm and the best / preferred navigation route it is very flexible and very powerful...

ADA does have three very powerful and preferred charcteristic over the Meridian in that:

- Changes to the ADA are immediately loaded into and "impacted on" the pre/pro...this is not the case with the Meridian where the entire configuration file needs to be loaded.

- The software application can be used to control the pre/pro in real time which is not possible with Meridian.

- The software application can be used over a LAN; that is, unlike the Meridan there is no need to connect the computer / laptop directly to the pre / pro via a serial connection...this is a big bonus because i) it is far more comfortable to program the unit at my desk than on the floor near my rack and ii) it is, for those of us that use RS-232 control systems, a pain to remove the control system's connection, plug int the laptops connections and then plug in the control system's connection into the one and only RS-232 connector...

Worth also noting is that the ADA can be programmed remotely by opening two ports on yoru router / vpn which provides easy access, dealer support and trouble shooting...


All that said, ...in terms of the software's look, learning curve and ergonomics Meridian is the clear winner...sorry, ADA.



Configurability

Complexity and ease of use are often a double edge sword and this proves to be true in this case as well.

Each of the Meridian 861 and the ADA Cinema Rhapsody MACH IV B have their own unique features but at the end of the day the Meridian is not as configurable nor as powerful as the ADA offering (and the difference is not small).

The other important point is that one need not be an expert to configure the ADA unit; that is, someone with basic knwoledge can get the ADA pre/pro to sing but to extract the very best performance, the configuration is best performed in the hands of an expert or experienced user...this of course is my view and others are welcome to challenge it or differ from it.

With that, combining the comments in the immediately preceeding section as well as this section my strong preference is for the ADA offering.



Controlability

This is not even a contest, the ADA wins hads down based on those features that are important to me noting that I am using a Crestron control system with 2 way control and a "control window" on my touch panels...the reasons include:

- ADA has a much richer rs-232 command set...again, this is written by engineers for engineers meaning there is literally (or as close to as is possible) as command for everything.

- ADA software has the ability to export the hex command strings; that is, press a button in the configuration software, the hex code appears and it can be copied directly into the programming application...very cool.

- ADA software, as communicated to me by the CI who programmed my Crestron system for both my Meridian 861 and my ADA Cinema Rhapsody MACH IV B, is much easier to integrate / use in a Crestron system particulalrly with respect to a control or feedback window which mirrors an OSD.



Documentation

Meridian's documentation commonly contains errors and ommissions noting that this not just my experience but that of the Meridian HH group as well.

ADA's docuemntation simply does not exists; that is, there is now a HD Suite 7.1 manual but there no Cinema Rhapsody MACH IV B manual (i.e. the unit arrived with no manual; that is, th eonly thing in the box was the unit and the power cord).

ADA does however have 8 videos that describe the configuration of the unit using the HD Suite software but, again, someone with patience and a little skill can master the software (heck, I did, and I am neither a computer engineer nor a software engineer)!

All that said, errors and all, Meridian wins because at least they have some documentation. Richard, for a very nomimal fee I will write the manual for you, call me!



Manufacturer Support

Meridian use to be one of the better/best manufacturers in terms of direct to consumer support in that in the not-too-distant past a consumer could either e-mail or telephone Meridian and get a very competent support technician respond with the right answer...think of Lumagen, Tag McLaren Audio ("TMA") and others...those days are long gone with Meridian now pushing end users to the dealers which is hit and miss because not all dealers know all the ins and outs of the Meridian equipment...

ADA brings back to mind the long ago days of TMA, not-too-distant past Meridian days and present day Lumagen manufacturer support...in short, ADA trumps Meridian hands down in terms of direct to consumer support and, as exmaples, I offer the following:

- Richard's participation in this and other forums whereas Meridian rarely participated in the Meridian HH forum.

- Richard et. al. availability when calling or e-mailing ADA in that in a very short period of time it has been easy to establish an excellent relationship with Richard and other of his colleagues.

- Particpation / support from the distributor is second to none. Neil (and Graham over at AVForum), thank you ever so much.

++++++++++++++++++

All that said where are we:

-- The key, or at least one of the key, determining factors is sound quality and this remains to be compared and heard (pun intended) which I will get to and provide a much more detailed review with time.

-- The other factors -- those noted above as well as those not discussed at this point -- have me leaning very much towards the ADA. And, while some (perhaps many) will say that this is because I no longer own a Meridian and now own an ADA I can honestly tell you that this is NOT the case and, to that end, I will debate and defend the above views as I have played with both enough to feel that I have a good basis of comparing the above categories.

Ahhh, bring on the comments...



PS. Apologies for the typos but it is late at night...

Great comparison. Thanks.

Can't wait to get mine up and running this weekend.

This may or may not add to what Joel was saying, but I've always considered ADA to produce very powerful tools and most other companies to produce very fancy toys. Anyone that has to work with real tools can attest to the difference.

That's not to say that companies like Lexicon or Krell or Meridian don't have great products, but Lex is the closest to my estimation of a tool out of the generally accepted high-end processors.

Dan

I am interested in the new Ada Preamp lineup. Two things trouble me though...

- Lack of multiple, individual subwoofer outputs (with individual delay, level and phase settings).

- integrated PEQ somewhat limited and Trinnov processing not available.

My question: Is the integrated PEQ software updateable to include more filters per channel, wider range for the Q/cut parameters and above all...shelve filters instead of just notch filters?

The last point about the lack of shelve filter is my major concern.

Although I understand your concerns is this a criticism of the ADA unit or a criticism of all/most units because I am not aware of any units [this does not mean that they do not exist] that satisfy all of the above issues...

And, for what it is worth, in my system I have addressed and overcome these issues by using an external DSP engine...and, while some will argue that the additional D/A and A/D conversion will degrade the sound my views are as follows:

1. The degradation cuased by the additional conversion will be more than offset by the ability to fine tune and tweak the room; and

2. The professional who specified my equipment and will be calibrating my room tells me that this will not be an issues and, plain and simple, I believe him...and, for complete disclosure, I did consider a standalone Trinnov system, a TacT system and others but, at the end of the day, the recoomendation was to use two QSC DSP engines...

Terrific early thoughts Joel, thx!

I suppose my only quibble is that for Meridian, here in North American at least, I do not note a significant change in the ability to directly contact them in Atlanta. Perhaps they are busier (or have less people), but the willingness seems to still be there. Although I have no direct experience, that willingness apparently no longer exists in Europe.

I could not agree more, though, with the observation about the display. I'm quite surprised, given their claims to a completely redesigned architecture, that Meridian didn't put in a more modern display capability on the 861v6.

The other thing I would say, quibbles and niggles aside, is that both Meridian and ADA are class outfits. I own, and have owned, kit from both companies - and when I recently had some trouble with a fairly old piece of ADA kit, they were enormously helpful in resolving my issues.

I look forward to some reports on sound quality performance from the ADA unit. Would love to read some head-to-head with the new Meridian 861v6, but that's probably tricky.

Simon

Appreciate the feedback and happy that you enjoyed the mini review




Even though I agree that Meridian America is much easier to contact and much more helpful than Meridian UK, the issue that remains is that the answer and solution to many items still needs to be sourced from Meridian UK which is still problematic. That is, it is nice to get a helpful and live person to answer the telephone (Meridian America) but not, at the end of the day, very useful when they have to go elsewhere (Meridian UK) to get the problem solved.




Nothing to add here that was not stated before.




With respect to ADA agree from what I have recently been exposed to and seen.

With respect to Meridian this use to be my view and why I invested so heavily in their equipment (i.e. 557, 558.2, 800V4, and 861V4). To me the sheen has come off for a number of reasons post Muse's investment in Meridian with some of the more obvious changes being i) pricing [which was previously high is now extremely high], ii) distancing themselves from their clients / users and iii) etc.




You shall have them but it will be impossible for me to compare with a Meridian 861V6 as I do not have access to one (noting that I would also need a 621)that said, I would be more than happy to do a comparison versus the 861v6/621 combination or any other pre/pro

It sure is more of an general "critisism"/wishlist/request...

May I ask which QSC DSP's you use for speaker/subwoofer EQ?

"1. The degradation cuased by the additional conversion will be more than offset by the ability to fine tune and tweak the room"

I agree. But given this argument the differences in sound/DAC quality between a unit like the Ada and much more expensive but also much less expensive units (think Onkyo/Integra) becomes obsolete as well.

Therefor the only conclusion is to buy Ada for its feature set and interfaces and not for any gain in SQ you expect compared to cheaper units. Because those become inmaterial when using external DSPs for EQ.

Do you have experience with an Anthem D2V (including ARC)? This is the only other option I am considering right now (I know - it also doesn't have soltutions to my 2 requests).

Thank you for sharing!

We ask, Joelc responds...

Thanks, Joel-- great write-up!

No problem, it is a pleasure...

Apologies but I completely disagree with this because your are ignoring/missing the point that quality of the D/A and A/D conversion between/from the ADA Cinema Rhapsody MACH IV B and QSC 922uz (one for the subwoofers and one for the non-subwoofer speakers)...that is, the quality of the ADA Cinema Rhapsody MACH IV B is the a key ingredient / reason why this works and work much better that in would with say an Onkyo (your suggestions)...






The only comment that I will make here is that my short list had a number of options which included i) the Anthem D2v and ii) the ADA Cinema Rhapsody MACH IV B noting that in both cases because of the multiple subs, etc. DSP engines was speced...

These pre/pros were (and others) were considered by "those in the know" (i.e. read professionals that assisted in the design and build of my new home theatre) and the end result was the ADA...

With respect to the Anthem's ARC my view of it (and all auto correcting algorithms) is that they are secondary to the capability and results that one derived from having a knowledgeable professionable equailize the room with the right tool...for me this means the QSC DSP 922uz in the hands of Dennis.

I appreciate the feedback.

That is unfortunately true. A couple of years ago it was no problem to get in touch with someone at Meridian. Technicians, managers, ... one could just pick up the phone and call in or drop a mail. Nowadays emails are not answered, there's no way to get through to anyone via phone. Dealers have a "secret" phone number they have to call when they want to get in touch with Meridian. The end user has no option to speak to Meridian directly.

A friends 568 was broken last year and sent in for repairs through the dealer. It took over a month to get some news from the dealer and he was told Meridian would repair the unit for a small fee. Getting it back took another month and after he got it back he found something else didn't work.

After a mail to Meridian and several phone calls to the dealer, Meridian was willing to deal directly with him and the whole issue (including pickup/delivery) was sorted out within a week. It's not that Meridian can't deal directly with end users, it's just that they don't want to... for whatever reason.



That is something I complained about as well. Meridian claimed the current display is good enough. I also believe they think most users will put the 861 somewhere in a rack, where it can't be seen, so a display isn't needed at all. The "new management" wants the end user to use Crestron or similar systems to control the components and they want the dealer to set it up. All the end user should do, is change volume, switch inputs and DSP modes. And for that it doesn't need a better display.

We have to face the fact that we're in a minority here. I like playing around with my system, but Meridian doesn't see it that way. We have to accept whatever Meridian is dictating. While I'm not too happy about it, I accept it as long as they deliver the best audio quality possible.

One thing I also hate with Meridian are their "silent updates", they keep making changes to their products without telling anyone about it. Be it a new mainboard in Sooloos or changes to their speakers. Not even their dealers are informed.

When I first listened to the DSP 8000, I was very disappointed. The current ones (latest update from early this year from what I've been told) sounds excellent. When the 5200 came out, I wasn't impressed at all. The latest non-speaker link versions sounded good. Speaker link versions even better.

But as much as I hate Meridian for some things and their stubbornness, I love em for the quality they deliver. Choose your poison.




I'm not Joel, and I might have posted it before. Found the 861 to have a bigger soundstage, more detailed and more accurate to sum it up.


Now, not turning this into a Meridian thread I'm gonna ask a ADA related question which I've asked before but got no answer.

Is there any chance we might see a version with digital outputs? This is becoming more and more common these days. I spoke to Adam-Audio earlier this year and they've begun to release digital input modules for their speakers.

A Mach IV with digital outputs combined with a Adam S6X or even S7A would sure be a killer combination for a HT.

Stephan:

As far as the above commentary goes is it in respect of an 861V6 versus i) an 861V4 or ii) an ADA Cinema Rhapsody MACH IV B.

Thanks.