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Meridian 861 + HD621 alternatives? - Page 4

post #91 of 146
8/29/10 at 3:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

While the 861v6 + 621 isn't exactly cheap, in my opinion it's the best processor on the market. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd be surprised if any other manufacturer will have anything close to the 861v6 within the next five years. It's that good.

I take no issue with any of that. And I understand Meridian has a very noninvasive room EQ process, one I'd really liked to have experienced, but the 861 I had was almost 10 years old, so it wasn't there yet.

Aside from that, speaking for myself, I ponder what I'd do without some means of cooking a house curve. I've had three different homes with three different setups, and never had the feeling that I could do without TasteEQ (tm).

The Tag before and now the SSP solve that for me without the encumbrance of extra A/D conversions. And I see ADA and even Krell offer onboard PEQ, too. IIRC Meridian of yore had no manual EQ--is that still the case with the newer models? My hat's off to you guys who "get there" without that crutch.
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post #92 of 146
8/29/10 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Aside from that, speaking for myself, I ponder what I'd do without some means of cooking a house curve.

You are indeed correct. Meridian has a room correction, but it's not for everyone. Someone who has a acoustically bad room might not really be happy with it.

I personally think that no room correction is the best room correction. I'd rather put $20k into treating the room than pay $200 for the best room correction in the world (yes, it will be more than that). So room correction is something I personally don't want to use and I think that MRC is good enough for the little bit there is left to touch up.

But you're correct, there might be rooms where Meridians MRC isn't enough and where a Trinnov could be added for better results.
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post #93 of 146
8/29/10 at 6:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

You are indeed correct. Meridian has a room correction, but it's not for everyone. Someone who has a acoustically bad room might not really be happy with it.

I personally think that no room correction is the best room correction. I'd rather put $20k into treating the room than pay $200 for the best room correction in the world (yes, it will be more than that). So room correction is something I personally don't want to use and I think that MRC is good enough for the little bit there is left to touch up.

But you're correct, there might be rooms where Meridians MRC isn't enough and where a Trinnov could be added for better results.

While room correction is an issue, and maybe one can use that to achieve the desired result, I'm talking about something rather different: house curve--personal taste, EQ that room correction does not do (at least not the ones I've tried, and that includes Trinnov). Compounding the problem, I do most listening at -30 dB, and flat tuning is way off the mark there.

As little of a purist as I may be, I still don't want Dynamic this or that to try to fix it. I want as little intervention as possible in the path. But if the result is off, spectrally, timbrally, or the deep bass notes are too recessed or missing, it grinds on me.

I may have painted myself into a corner, a small room with nulling problems, using the system as I do at low levels, and an opinionated view of how things ought to sound, so I'm not here to put my troubles into anyone else's reality.

I wonder if headphones and dummy head mics are good enough to allow folks to hear each other's rooms from a distance??? Pictures, response plots, they only go so far.
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post #94 of 146
8/30/10 at 6:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

It's not a limitation, it's the way it should be done. If one is using bitstream, some sounds from menus and extras can't be mixed into the bitstream, so they can never be heard.

While the 861v6 + 621 isn't exactly cheap, in my opinion it's the best processor on the market. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd be surprised if any other manufacturer will have anything close to the 861v6 within the next five years. It's that good.

Well, it is a limitation, in the sense that it is something the processor cannot do, that I felt the OP ought to know. However, I have never been able to distinguish unzipping the codec in a player versus in a processor so I think it is something of a 'tempest in a teacup'. Your point about the extras is a good one, although almost 3 years into BD and I've yet to actually use the feature .

I fully agree with you assessment of the 861v6/621 combination - blows away anything else I've heard. It would be interesting to see a comparison with the new Krell though.
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post #95 of 146
8/30/10 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I take no issue with any of that. And I understand Meridian has a very noninvasive room EQ process, one I'd really liked to have experienced, but the 861 I had was almost 10 years old, so it wasn't there yet.

Aside from that, speaking for myself, I ponder what I'd do without some means of cooking a house curve. I've had three different homes with three different setups, and never had the feeling that I could do without TasteEQ (tm).

The Tag before and now the SSP solve that for me without the encumbrance of extra A/D conversions. And I see ADA and even Krell offer onboard PEQ, too. IIRC Meridian of yore had no manual EQ--is that still the case with the newer models? My hat's off to you guys who "get there" without that crutch.

Actually, the 861 does. You can edit the filters manually.
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post #96 of 146
8/30/10 at 10:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Actually, the 861 does. You can edit the filters manually.

That's neat. So if it cooks a few for room modes, I can add a few more of my own design? Does it cap at a certain number of filters per channel?
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post #97 of 146
8/31/10 at 4:04am
I should know that. Hum. I haven't run out of filters yet.
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post #98 of 146
8/31/10 at 7:05am
I have recently traded in my v4 into a V6 and I also purchased HD621. In my opinion, this combination is really amazing. I had Meridian 861 v4 and a Denon 5308 before...none of these are even close to V6+HD621. I really loved the Realta process for video, so I got the denon 602CI for improving image quality. With this equipments, I could not be happier...the results I got are really really really great...
Meridian products are really expensive, but they worth what they cost...
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post #99 of 146
8/31/10 at 7:39am
IIRC (on the G68), there's a limit of 60 filters. You run MRC and it makes a set of measurements and creates a default set of filters by channel with reported decay time. You can then set lower decay times and it generates more filters based upon the initial measurements. You can also go in and manually adjust each filter individually.
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post #100 of 146
8/31/10 at 9:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renabot77 View Post

I have recently traded in my v4 into a V6 and I also purchased HD621. In my opinion, this combination is really amazing. I had Meridian 861 v4 and a Denon 5308 before...none of these are even close to V6+HD621.

Welcome to the insanity! Fully agree that this combo is world-class .... now all you need is a Lumagen Radiance to complete the set
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post #101 of 146
8/31/10 at 9:40am
For now, this Lumagen Radiance will have to wait...my fiancée will kill me if I spend more money with my HT this year...
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post #102 of 146
8/31/10 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renabot77 View Post

For now, this Lumagen Radiance will have to wait...my fiancée will kill me if I spend more money with my HT this year...

No, no, you've got to get as much stuff in the HT as you can before you get married, then it becomes a 'prexisting condition'. After you're married, you can only go to the 'honey, it was always there you just didn't notice' well a handful of times.

Although, come to think of it, I did manage to 'smuggle' in a Danley DTS-10 subwoofer (which is very large) without anyone noticing. Maybe she's just humoring me ....
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post #103 of 146
8/31/10 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post

No, no, you've got to get as much stuff in the HT as you can before you get married, then it becomes a 'prexisting condition'. After you're married, you can only go to the 'honey, it was always there you just didn't notice' well a handful of times.

Although, come to think of it, I did manage to 'smuggle' in a Danley DTS-10 subwoofer (which is very large) without anyone noticing. Maybe she's just humoring me ....

Which other things do you recommend?
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post #104 of 146
8/31/10 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post

No, no, you've got to get as much stuff in the HT as you can before you get married, then it becomes a 'prexisting condition'. After you're married, you can only go to the 'honey, it was always there you just didn't notice' well a handful of times.

+1, I could not agree more...
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post #105 of 146
8/31/10 at 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by isb View Post

IIRC (on the G68), there's a limit of 60 filters. You run MRC and it makes a set of measurements and creates a default set of filters by channel with reported decay time. You can then set lower decay times and it generates more filters based upon the initial measurements. You can also go in and manually adjust each filter individually.

Sounds reasonable. Can you confirm if it allows adding new filters--or is it confined to tweaking the ones it generates?
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post #106 of 146
8/31/10 at 1:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Sounds reasonable. Can you confirm if it allows adding new filters--or is it confined to tweaking the ones it generates?

You can add new filters, but are limited to 10 per channel, though that limit may be less in practice because as you approach the limit of 60, lip sync resources get reduced. This Wiki page talks about how to use Room EQ Wizard with MRC:

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/wik...ewMrcProcedure
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post #107 of 146
8/31/10 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

You can add new filters, but are limited to 10 per channel, though that limit may be less in practice because as you approach the limit of 60, lip sync resources get reduced. This Wiki page talks about how to use Room EQ Wizard with MRC:

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/wik...ewMrcProcedure

Thanks much for that, Andrew. 10 per channel on top of the room mode filters seems quite generous. Even though I'm not shopping, that puts it on my short list of preeminently usable, EQ-able SSPs.
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post #108 of 146
8/31/10 at 5:10pm
The 861v6 offers terrific sonics ... now with that aside ....

Yes, you can create your own filters, and many of them, which helps a lot for us inveterate tweakers.

On the other hand, you can't create broad filters, only fairly narrow ones. So, you can't really create a house curve the way you can with more flexible PEQ filters, shelf filters, etc. It'd be easy for Meridian to add that flexibility, but it goes against their purist leanings.
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post #109 of 146
8/31/10 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

The 861v6 offers terrific sonics ... now with that aside ....

Yes, you can create your own filters, and many of them, which helps a lot for us inveterate tweakers.

On the other hand, you can't create broad filters, only fairly narrow ones. So, you can't really create a house curve the way you can with more flexible PEQ filters, shelf filters, etc. It'd be easy for Meridian to add that flexibility, but it goes against their purist leanings.

What's the minimum Q? I get by with Q=1, but yes, t'would be nice to have 0.9, 0.8, 0.7 options, and shelves, too. Funny, Tag's TMREQ had that done and dusted 10 years ago!
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post #110 of 146
9/3/10 at 9:18pm
Can someone give me a rough ballpark for the cost of upgrading from a V4 to a V6 861?
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post #111 of 146
9/3/10 at 9:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgarcia View Post

Can someone give me a rough ballpark for the cost of upgrading from a V4 to a V6 861?

Meridian had an upgrade program that set the cost at USD 16,000 before dealer negotiations....the program has, at least in theory, expired meaning that you would be in for the USD 25,000 cost of a new unit less what you could get for your existing unit...

I hope this helps..
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post #112 of 146
9/4/10 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

Meridian had an upgrade program that set the cost at USD 16,000 before dealer negotiations....the program has, at least in theory, expired meaning that you would be in for the USD 25,000 cost of a new unit less what you could get for your existing unit...

I hope this helps..

I am pretty happy with my V4 as it is now, what else is there to make it sound better?....25k wow..
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post #113 of 146
9/4/10 at 1:55pm
As Joel pointed out, the trade-in program expired. I would recommend to sell the 861v4 to a dealer and buy a v6 instead. I've done it that way and it turned out to be the cheaper route compared to the regular trade-in program. At least that's true for the UK, it could be different in the US or other countries.

A way to make the the 861v4 sound better is to add a HD621, at least for HDMI sources. If you have a 621 already, there are some people who had their power supplies modded and reported better results.

If analogue speakers and non-balanced output cards are used (OA03 if I remember correctly), there's the option to replace them with the balanced 192kHz cards (OA13) for better results.
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post #114 of 146
9/5/10 at 12:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

A way to make the the 861v4 sound better is to add a HD621, at least for HDMI sources. If you have a 621 already, there are some people who had their power supplies modded and reported better results.

Do you have any links please?

Thx Nick
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post #115 of 146
9/6/10 at 4:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

What's the minimum Q? I get by with Q=1, but yes, t'would be nice to have 0.9, 0.8, 0.7 options, and shelves, too.

The PEQ isn't set using a Q parameter. Instead you set the center frequency, gain, and "width". At 190hz or at 40hz center and gain -3db you are limited to around 21hz of "width." Width appears to be the point that bisects the correction curve on the left and right sides of the individual filter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccerdude View Post

I am pretty happy with my V4 as it is now, what else is there to make it sound better?....25k wow..

The difference between the v4 and v6 is remarkable. I didn't expect that magnitude of improvement.
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post #116 of 146
9/6/10 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

The PEQ isn't set using a Q parameter. Instead you set the center frequency, gain, and "width". At 190hz or at 40hz center and gain -3db you are limited to around 21hz of "width." Width appears to be the point that bisects the correction curve on the left and right sides of the individual filter..

That's ok. We can translate between frequencies and Q as seen here.

The 40 Hz example Q=40/42 or essentially 1.
The 190 Hz example Q=90/42 or 4.5.

I realize the above examples are not perfect since the gain was only -3 dB, but I suspect the gain settings will not affect the width settings. Interesting that the widths are limited such that the same Qs cannot be applied at different frequencies.
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post #117 of 146
9/6/10 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

Do you have any links please?

Sorry, I don't have any direct links for it, no. Your best chance is to do a search in the Hitchhikers forum around 2 or 3 years back. From what I remember, there were a couple of threads on mods for the 500 and 800 series.
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post #118 of 146
9/6/10 at 3:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

The PEQ isn't set using a Q parameter. Instead you set the center frequency, gain, and "width". At 190hz or at 40hz center and gain -3db you are limited to around 21hz of "width." Width appears to be the point that bisects the correction curve on the left and right sides of the individual filter.



The difference between the v4 and v6 is remarkable. I didn't expect that magnitude of improvement.

I will wait till you sell your V6 while you waiting for V7..
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post #119 of 146
9/6/10 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

Sorry, I don't have any direct links for it, no. Your best chance is to do a search in the Hitchhikers forum around 2 or 3 years back. From what I remember, there were a couple of threads on mods for the 500 and 800 series.

I had read these threads going back to 2006:

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/ubb...=41609&fpart=1
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=27713.0

I thought you were referring to a PSU upgrade to the 621, which came along later (just bought one today BTW ). I speculated about the benefit of this in this thread:

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/ubb...158#Post123158
Quote:


I think linear power supplies are generally preferred on SQ grounds. Switch mode supplies, because of the necessarily high switching frequencies and harmonics, tend to generate lots of high frequency noise and interference that finds its way into everything, no matter how much screening and filtering you do. Linear supplies run at mains frequencies, which cause less noise. However, the transformers are less efficient, and therefore have to be much bigger.
......
Extending my reasoning before, I've been looking at the PSUs in other M gear. Apart from the odd G07, 506 or 561, all recent players and processors seem to have SMPS's. I don't think the power requirements are ever too great, and there seems to be space available in everything except the combined players/controllers/receivers.

Therefore there might be a case for an enthusiastic owner to upgrade the supply in their transport as well as the controller - or even in the HD621 as well. The 621 might not do any analogue conversion, but it's still a source of digital audio that's vulnerable to noise and jitter. Not wanting to get too carried away, I bet a suitably compact linear supply would help both the 621, and the rest of the system.

But I'd never heard of anyone doing it with an HD621. If a good quality, linear supply helps with a player or processor, I bet it would help with the 621 as well. Not sure I want to tear my new pride and joy apart just yet though.

Nick
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post #120 of 146
9/7/10 at 6:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccerdude View Post

I will wait till you sell your V6 while you waiting for V7..

Oh, don't go there!

Hopefully future versions of 861 will build on the 'new platform' that is the v6 - upgrade costs along the lines of v2 - v3 - v4, rather than needing to completely replace the unit ala v4 - v6 (whatever did happen to v5?).

Hard to see where v6 would go next. Could the sound quality improve? I suppose, but it's already the best sounding piece out there, so ..... It would be nice to have some flexibility in outputs beyond 8 channels, or some additional cards .....
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