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Samsung cap failures?

post #1 of 84
11/20/09 at 10:35am
Thread Starter 
After reading through this forum (especially the 61,65 etc. series owners thread) it's obvious that Samsung has a cap problem in their sets. I had to have 3 replaced in my 4065 and it appears that they begin to show up somewhere between 18 to 24 months. Has anyone experienced any cap failures yet with the a550, 650, 750 etc. series TVs yet? I have a 40lna550 that's about 14 months old (fortunately I have an extended warranty) and was wondering if I should expect another failure as these sets should be getting into the same age as the previous series that began to show failure.
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post #2 of 84
11/20/09 at 7:21pm
I noticed the new power supply boards use higher voltage caps and are not covered with a metal cage anymore (reduce heat issues?).
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post #3 of 84
11/20/09 at 7:32pm
I have a 40lnb550 and have not seen any issues yet, but it is only about 11 months old at this point.

There are allot of things that can affect the lifetime of a power supply capacitor. Temperature in the operating environment, the voltages that they are subjected to in relation to the rating of the cap, usage if they are left on for long periods they simply wear out, etc.... Most electrolytic caps in power supplies will eventually fail, but a good power supply design will take into account all of the above factors and try to limit these failures, maybe Samsung got some bad caps or had a poor design.
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post #4 of 84
11/21/09 at 12:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxdog03 View Post

After reading through this forum (especially the 61,65 etc. series owners thread) it's obvious that Samsung has a cap problem in their sets. I had to have 3 replaced in my 4065 and it appears that they begin to show up somewhere between 18 to 24 months. Has anyone experienced any cap failures yet with the a550, 650, 750 etc. series TVs yet? I have a 40lna550 that's about 14 months old (fortunately I have an extended warranty) and was wondering if I should expect another failure as these sets should be getting into the same age as the previous series that began to show failure.

I have explained the background reasons for capacitor failure before in detail.... so in the nutshell:

1. Cheap companies try to save money by utilising "high voltage" capacitors right on the boarder in regards to nominal voltage. We are talking here something like 220uF and lets say 160V DC (for 110V AC mains). This is right on the boarder because the capacitor should be rated at 200V DC.

Why?

DC voltage the capacitor is exposed to is around 150V DC nominal. However, the mains fluctuation will swing this DC level... so the cap may end up seeing 155V DC.. or more. Now, the electrolyte inside the capacitor will start to overheat (slowly cook!) at around 150V DC for 160V DC nominal capacitor rating. The electrolyte overheats and slowly it evaporates, the capacitor looses capacitance... and the wishes circle continues until the electrolyte can not provide its functionality.. and 220uF cap becomes 50uF cap - and the DC voltage rail drops in voltage... because it is not DC any more, but DC with a lot of ripple... This is when the electronics start to misfire...

So, why did Samsung do this????

To save a fair bit of money, because at such a "high" nominal voltage the caps can be very expensive, and move from 160V DC to 200 V DC nominal rating would mean definite loos of profitability... Us customers (well, you guys - not me - I would never let Samsung product enter my household) - the TV will work okay during warranty period, right?

Boky
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post #5 of 84
11/21/09 at 3:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky View Post

1. Cheap companies try to save money by utilising "high voltage" capacitors right on the boarder in regards to nominal voltage. We are talking here something like 220uF and lets say 160V DC (for 110V AC mains). This is right on the boarder because the capacitor should be rated at 200V DC.

Why?

DC voltage the capacitor is exposed to is around 150V DC nominal. However, the mains fluctuation will swing this DC level... so the cap may end up seeing 155V DC.. or more. Now, the electrolyte inside the capacitor will start to overheat (slowly cook!) at around 150V DC for 160V DC nominal capacitor rating. The electrolyte overheats and slowly it evaporates, the capacitor looses capacitance... and the wishes circle continues until the electrolyte can not provide its functionality.. and 220uF cap becomes 50uF cap - and the DC voltage rail drops in voltage... because it is not DC any more, but DC with a lot of ripple... This is when the electronics start to misfire...

So, why did Samsung do this????

To save a fair bit of money, because at such a "high" nominal voltage the caps can be very expensive, and move from 160V DC to 200 V DC nominal rating would mean definite loos of profitability... Us customers (well, you guys - not me - I would never let Samsung product enter my household) - the TV will work okay during warranty period, right?

Good explanation, Boky!

Some additional comments, though:

Not only Samsung that has to learn that customers don't tolerate product failures after a short time and therefore extreme cost savings don't pay off in the long run.
A lot of Acer Aspire iDea media center PCs died because of power supply failure - blown capacitors after less than three years - and many respected computer mainboard manufacturers had the very same problem around five years ago. They ended up using expensive solid caps.

Samsung themselves may think that their TVs are disposable products like razor blades or condoms but owners still have the - rightful - opinion that a TV should last longer than the warranty period. Less technical minded persons will get very annoyed when their treasured, glossy high-tech piece of furniture suddenly stops to work. Especially when they paid a comparatively large sum of money for it!

Therefore I also see another vicious circle happen: When less people buy products of a certain company it will have to save costs even more drastically to remain on the market - by using even cheaper components...
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post #6 of 84
11/21/09 at 5:27am
The fact is that consumers DO tolerate poor quality. They keep buying based primarily on price and features and throw things away easily.
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post #7 of 84
11/21/09 at 6:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

The fact is that consumers DO tolerate poor quality. They keep buying based primarily on price and features and throw things away easily.

Exactly. The only way this kind of thing would stop is if consumers would refuse to buy Samsung TV's en masse because of issues like this. That's not going to happen (unless the Internet really starts to come alive with publicizing of the way Samsung is handling this).
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post #8 of 84
11/21/09 at 8:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky View Post

I have explained the background reasons for capacitor failure before in detail.... so in the nutshell:

1. Cheap companies try to save money by utilising "high voltage" capacitors right on the boarder in regards to nominal voltage. We are talking here something like 220uF and lets say 160V DC (for 110V AC mains). This is right on the boarder because the capacitor should be rated at 200V DC.

Why?

DC voltage the capacitor is exposed to is around 150V DC nominal. However, the mains fluctuation will swing this DC level... so the cap may end up seeing 155V DC.. or more. Now, the electrolyte inside the capacitor will start to overheat (slowly cook!) at around 150V DC for 160V DC nominal capacitor rating. The electrolyte overheats and slowly it evaporates, the capacitor looses capacitance... and the wishes circle continues until the electrolyte can not provide its functionality.. and 220uF cap becomes 50uF cap - and the DC voltage rail drops in voltage... because it is not DC any more, but DC with a lot of ripple... This is when the electronics start to misfire...

So, why did Samsung do this????

To save a fair bit of money, because at such a "high" nominal voltage the caps can be very expensive, and move from 160V DC to 200 V DC nominal rating would mean definite loos of profitability... Us customers (well, you guys - not me - I would never let Samsung product enter my household) - the TV will work okay during warranty period, right?

Boky

Thanks for your input and I understand the reason behind the failures and why companies shortcut to save money. I was hoping to hear if the more current models were starting to experience the same issues that prior models were having. Without the confidence that this issue has been addressed and taken care of, I would encourage buyers to get an extended warranty as it seems to happen somewhere around 2 years into life. I don't normally buy extended warranties but glad I did for my two Samsungs.
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post #9 of 84
11/21/09 at 9:42am
I can feel for you. I had a Sony that started to have problems even before the LABOR portion of the warranty expired. I put enough money in it just for the labor.

It failed the same way after the Parts and Labor warranty expired. I decided not to throw good money after bad. Sold the TV for the price of the remote control, $25.

What I don't understand is that Consumer Reports survey of 118,700 LCD owners reported that only 3% of Samsung owners who purchased sets between 2006 and the first half of 2009 needed repairs. Statistically, 3% is within the margin of error, with the best brands including Sony, and Panasonic showing only 2% needed repairs.

I agree with Boky. Using parts that are borderline insufficent for the task, to save a few cents on a handfull of parts does the customer a great disservice. Samsung knows how many of it sets experience failures. Parts should be rated for the number of thousands of hours between failures within the overall design of the product.
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post #10 of 84
11/22/09 at 9:12am
Samsung 4254 plasma

Purchased 11/07

Bad caps started 10/09
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post #11 of 84
12/2/09 at 9:23pm
But isnt it a pretty cheap and easy fix to do yourself (if you know how to solder)? Maybe someone could provide a repair guide with pictures.
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post #12 of 84
12/2/09 at 9:38pm
The Samsung caps that fail are typically 1000uf/16v.
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post #13 of 84
12/2/09 at 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirsilent View Post

But isnt it a pretty cheap and easy fix to do yourself (if you know how to solder)? Maybe someone could provide a repair guide with pictures.

Not much too know. U place the hot iron tip in there, wait a few seconds, the solder begin to melt (hopefully) that allows u to pull the old cap off.

Now to do it successfully, a newbie is advised to practice with a throw-away circuit board a few time first. U have to learn by feel.
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post #14 of 84
12/4/09 at 11:47am
5271 sammy

purchased 6/08

warranty ended 9/09

problem started last week...

how convenient.... call samsung and they told me I was on my own....


I'm going to repair this on my own..

first and last samsung product I will buy
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post #15 of 84
12/4/09 at 12:06pm
I'm not paid for this, and they are repairable, just replace these capacitors.

The main reason some capacitors failed is these capacitors themselves are inconsistent quality to begin with even is rated 105C and voltages are within specs with sufficient margin. 10V for 5V, 16V for 12V/13V, and some used 25V and 35V for some that needs 24V lamp inverter supply. These caps Samsung uses is samwha and sometimes samyoung. Not always decent but other caps that did not bloat or ESR going higher (measured) get replaced while leaving good ones in as they usually don't give trouble.

Just obtain number of quality capacitors and correct type like low ESR with high ripple current capacitors and fix these Samsung and other TVs. This is nothing to get real excited about, even the generic TVs have this plague as well as other major brands like philips, toshiba, etc. And my advice, go to www.badcaps.net where forum is there to help anyone to learn and obtain proper capacitors. Do not buy from electronic suppliers that do not list what kind of capacitors they are, they often are general purpose which is inappropriate type.

To some who swore off Samsung just for caps fiasco, too bad where will you go to for another TV with good support? Philips recently quit the /27 series support and RCA bought out again and we lost the techical support where we send questions etc to. Toshiba and other major brands, no knowledge. What I really appreciate any makers is decent and wonderful parts support for several years. I can't say same thing for generic TVs. Having maker that maintain good parts availability for at least 5 years is important. Point in case: Fixed a 2004 17" Samsung LCD by replacing a micro controller IC several months ago (summer), only few bucks.

Cheers, Wizard
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post #16 of 84
12/4/09 at 2:22pm
Sharp, on the other hand, uses the best capacitors available out there, made by Rubicon.... on ALL their modules / PCB's...

Boky



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard256 View Post

I'm not paid for this, and they are repairable, just replace these capacitors.

The main reason some capacitors failed is these capacitors themselves are inconsistent quality to begin with even is rated 105C and voltages are within specs with sufficient margin. 10V for 5V, 16V for 12V/13V, and some used 25V and 35V for some that needs 24V lamp inverter supply. These caps Samsung uses is samwha and sometimes samyoung. Not always decent but other caps that did not bloat or ESR going higher (measured) get replaced while leaving good ones in as they usually don't give trouble.

Just obtain number of quality capacitors and correct type like low ESR with high ripple current capacitors and fix these Samsung and other TVs. This is nothing to get real excited about, even the generic TVs have this plague as well as other major brands like philips, toshiba, etc. And my advice, go to www.badcaps.net where forum is there to help anyone to learn and obtain proper capacitors. Do not buy from electronic suppliers that do not list what kind of capacitors they are, they often are general purpose which is inappropriate type.

To some who swore off Samsung just for caps fiasco, too bad where will you go to for another TV with good support? Philips recently quit the /27 series support and RCA bought out again and we lost the techical support where we send questions etc to. Toshiba and other major brands, no knowledge. What I really appreciate any makers is decent and wonderful parts support for several years. I can't say same thing for generic TVs. Having maker that maintain good parts availability for at least 5 years is important. Point in case: Fixed a 2004 17" Samsung LCD by replacing a micro controller IC several months ago (summer), only few bucks.

Cheers, Wizard
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post #17 of 84
12/4/09 at 3:34pm
Until sumbody make a bezel as sexy as the Samsung, I ain't going anywhere.
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post #18 of 84
12/4/09 at 3:42pm
Here is why Samsung elec caps fail. Samsung uses a number of part suppliers for the manufacturing of their sets, the caps in question all come from a particular manufacturer in China. The problem has been isolated and resolved. This problem will not happen to every Samsung TV out in the market but only to those sets that have been built with the tainted capacitors.
These capacitos are under-rated for the value that are suppose to be.
These are small voltages too so whoever posted 150V caps a few messages above is totally wrong. the 2 caps that usually fail in most LCD power supplies are 2200mf x 15v and 1000mf x 10v - these caps cost a total of $2 dollars at RadioShack and they can be easily replaced.
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post #19 of 84
12/4/09 at 11:36pm
Confuzius says:

TVs are like women: If the inner values aren't compelling you won't have fun in the long run, however sexy the exterior!

;-)
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post #20 of 84
12/5/09 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny42 View Post

Confuzius says:

TVs are like women: If the inner values aren't compelling you won't have fun in the long run, however sexy the exterior!

;-)

lol
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post #21 of 84
12/6/09 at 5:12am
Hi,

Just joined because I did some research and found out about the cap problems on Samsung plasma TV's. My wife and I just bought a Samsung PN42B430P2D. From what I have read on this thread the main problem with them seems to be the capacitors on the power supply. I don't expect them to be bad right off the bat but is there a way to tell when they are going bad so I can be prepared?

I have been an electronics tech for over thirty years so the idea of replacing them is not an issue. The question I would have is how easy is it to get at the board? Most manufacturers don't make it very easy to get at the internals.

This is our first HD TV and now that I have found this info I am considering taking it back and switching to another brand or is that over reacting?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Ironray

PS can anyone point me to where the calibration thread for Samsung is?
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post #22 of 84
12/6/09 at 10:24pm
You have nothing to worry about with your plasma- They do not have the capacitor problem. Its mostly limited to last years model LCDs and some DLPs.
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post #23 of 84
12/6/09 at 11:39pm
fwiw, plasmas can be just as susceptible to failing caps.

I just picked up a (broken) 2004 50" Toshiba Plasma and found bad caps on the y sus board ($250-300). These caps are 150v / 150u and a few 250v 150u SAMWHA (M)... not a great reputation and questionable cap 'grade' for the incredible heat these plasmas experience. Especially those w/o active cooling via fan.

A quick search on craigslist shows MANY LCDS and PLASMAs where they owner says "All I know is I heard a POP and then it stopped working..." classic sound for cap failure.

Another example. I repaired two $12,000 Raritan KVM units just by opening them up and looking for a buldging cap. Turned out they each had a few bad (Rubicon...) caps in the power supply's. Saved my company a nice chunk of change.

So my rule is if it uses electricity and it stopped working properly... check closely for bad caps on the power supply first... but don't rule out the others.
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post #24 of 84
12/7/09 at 2:57am
Yeah, plasmas would be even more susceptible to capacitor failure due to their greater heat output.

It's a shame that such great tvs are plagued by such an otherwise minor problem. And for what? To save a dollar or two per television by going with the cheapest supplier, instead of a more reputable one. Thankfully, switching out the caps with better quality and higher rated ones is an easy enough fix on LCD panels.
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post #25 of 84
12/7/09 at 3:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill4903485 View Post

It's a shame that such great tvs are plagued by such an otherwise minor problem. And for what? To save a dollar or two per television by going with the cheapest supplier, instead of a more reputable one. Thankfully, switching out the caps with better quality and higher rated ones is an easy enough fix on LCD panels.

TV sets consist of hundreds of components - if they'd only use the 'better' ones they may end up having twice the cost.

Not excusing - merely pointing out.

Add to this the trend to outsource even more than before (Sony for example) we may end up having the worst time still before us...
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post #26 of 84
12/7/09 at 10:56pm
Toshiba? I thought we were talking about Samsung here and Samsung's Cap problem..





Quote:
Originally Posted by thegeeknme View Post

fwiw, plasmas can be just as susceptible to failing caps.

I just picked up a (broken) 2004 50" Toshiba Plasma and found bad caps on the y sus board ($250-300). These caps are 150v / 150u and a few 250v 150u SAMWHA (M)... not a great reputation and questionable cap 'grade' for the incredible heat these plasmas experience. Especially those w/o active cooling via fan.

A quick search on craigslist shows MANY LCDS and PLASMAs where they owner says "All I know is I heard a POP and then it stopped working..." classic sound for cap failure.

Another example. I repaired two $12,000 Raritan KVM units just by opening them up and looking for a buldging cap. Turned out they each had a few bad (Rubicon...) caps in the power supply's. Saved my company a nice chunk of change.

So my rule is if it uses electricity and it stopped working properly... check closely for bad caps on the power supply first... but don't rule out the others.
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post #27 of 84
12/8/09 at 5:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny42 View Post

TV sets consist of hundreds of components - if they'd only use the 'better' ones they may end up having twice the cost.

Not excusing - merely pointing out.

Add to this the trend to outsource even more than before (Sony for example) we may end up having the worst time still before us...

The powersupply itself is fairly utilitarian and sparse. But these capacitors are the main component on average failing in these televisions. You ever hear of the old adage pennywise and pound foolish?

We get the misrepresentation of failing caps being an isolated incident on AVSForum compared to the sheer numbers reporting this problem elsewhere, including Samsung's own forum.

http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=62360
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-4_102-0....hreadID=316414

These caps are like ticking time bombs inside of millions of televisions. Based on these pictures, and from what I also have experienced, I wouldn't be surprised if this is yet another case of a rogue Asian manufacturer counterfeiting a formulation and botching it badly.

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post #28 of 84
12/8/09 at 7:06am
Get these capacitors replaced with good capacitors used with low esr, high ripple current like rubycon, nichicon, Samxon GT series so on. That all to this.

Cheers, Wizard
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post #29 of 84
12/8/09 at 7:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill4903485 View Post

The powersupply itself is fairly utilitarian and sparse. But these capacitors are the main component on average failing in these televisions. You ever hear of the old adage pennywise and pound foolish?

We get the misrepresentation of failing caps being an isolated incident on AVSForum compared to the sheer numbers reporting this problem elsewhere, including Samsung's own forum.

http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=62360
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-4_102-0....hreadID=316414

These caps are like ticking time bombs inside of millions of televisions. Based on these pictures, and from what I also have experienced, I wouldn't be surprised if this is yet another case of a rogue Asian manufacturer counterfeiting a formulation and botching it badly.

Ah, yes. And while we are on that subject, lets be clear about the outcome of an earlier situation involving crappy caps. in the early 2000's (2001-2003?), motherboard manufacturers were putting out motherboards with caps bought from subpar manufacturers made with stolen formulas. The caps ended up going bad, and a class action lawsuit commenced. I, for one, got a free motherboard from MSI out of that class action lawsuit. The situation is even more dire here. A $1000 TV is a lot more expensive to start replacing than a $50 motherboard. It will take a lot less to create a class action lawsuit, and the consequences to the manufacturer will be much more expensive. They would be wise to fix these sets for free and get their manufacturing processes squared away before the gaze of some money-hungry class action lawyer gets wind of the widespread failures.
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post #30 of 84
12/8/09 at 7:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill4903485 View Post

...We get the misrepresentation of failing caps being an isolated incident on AVSForum compared to the sheer numbers reporting this problem elsewhere, including Samsung's own forum. ...These caps are like ticking time bombs inside of millions of televisions. ..

This is a valuable discussion, but you have to be more careful inferring frequencies from forum posts. I've seen this time and again in my years of reading AVS. A few dozen people report a problem, then get batting it back and forth repeatedly, and it can look like the sky is falling. It's surprising and encouraging to see how often the issue simply goes away, leaving millions of people who do not read forums happily watching their TVs, unaware they were ever supposed to be worried.
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