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"the upgrade company" <component mods> - Page 47  

post #1381 of 2187
2/13/10 at 9:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclsound View Post

Technically speaking,you may call Ontario Audio on whether or not the player is still there,they are a authorized Marantz factory service dept. and Krell and 95 more.

My question is whether or not covering up all the vents in the lids of these players with your super mat creates alot of internal heat,IS this good for a player?

Player is not hot my friend.

Yes i believe the super mat is covering the inside of the lid and the vent over the ac plug.Does the lid itself act as a heatsink? And if the inside of the lid is all covered in supermat,would this not stop heat from dissapating,Hence creating a very hot internal space?
post #1382 of 2187
2/13/10 at 10:40pm
From the BBB website:

If a business has been accredited by the BBB, it means BBB has determined that the business meets accreditation standards which include a commitment to make a good faith effort to resolve any consumer complaints. BBB accredited businesses pay a fee for accreditation review/monitoring and for support of BBB services to the public.

BBB Code of Business Practices represents standards for business accreditation by BBB. Businesses based in the United States and Canada that meet these standards and complete all application procedures will be accredited by BBB. The Code is built on the BBB Standards for Trust, eight principles that summarize important elements of creating and maintaining trust in business.

BBB accreditation does not mean that the business' products or services have been evaluated or endorsed by BBB, or that BBB has made a determination as to the business' product quality or competency in performing services.
post #1383 of 2187
2/14/10 at 9:36am
What value testimonials?

Quote:


Testimonials and vivid anecdotes are one of the most popular and convincing forms of evidence presented for beliefs in the ...... pseudoscientific. Nevertheless, testimonials and anecdotes in such matters are of little value in establishing the probability of the claims they are put forth to support.

Quote:


Anecdotes are unreliable for various reasons. Stories are prone to contamination by beliefs, later experiences, feedback, selective attention to details, and so on. Most stories get distorted in the telling and the retelling. Events get exaggerated. Time sequences get confused. Details get muddled. Memories are imperfect and selective; they are often filled in after the fact. People misinterpret their experiences. Experiences are conditioned by biases, memories, and beliefs, so people's perceptions might not be accurate. Most people aren't expecting to be deceived, so they may not be aware of deceptions that others might engage in. Some people make up stories. Some stories are delusions.....In short, anecdotes are inherently problematic.....

Quote:


If such testimonials are scientifically worthless, why are they so popular and why are they so convincing? There are several reasons. Testimonials are often vivid and detailed, making them appear credible. They are often made by enthusiastic people who seem trustworthy and honest, and who lack any reason to deceive us. They are often made by people with some semblance of authority, such as those who hold a Ph.D. in psychology or physics. To some extent, testimonials are believable because people want to believe them. Often, one anticipates with hope some new treatment or instruction. One's testimonial is given soon after the experience while one's mood is still elevated from the desire for a positive outcome. The experience and the testimonial it elicits are given more significance than they deserve.

http://www.skepdic.com/testimon.html
post #1384 of 2187
2/15/10 at 7:27am
I think it's fairly obvious that TUC is not willing to substantiate its claims of improvement objectively.

If there's an enhancement anywhere, it should be measurable between 20Hz-22kHz as a gain or attenuation that causes the listener to notice a difference from stock.

Any change is/should be measurable to prove that the listener is not just being fed a colorful placebo that cost them thousands of dollars.

All this audiophile jargon that can not seemingly be proven objectively is really just psychological and physiological reactions to the listening environment.

TUC's business is predicated on the fact that at any particular listening session, a consumer won't be able to accurately deduce that the "paid-for-profit" upgrades cause performance to be worse than stock.

Therefore, if they can't be worse, they must at least be equal or better, right?

Well, then, thanks for your $$$ and have a nice day.

Perhaps it's not really snake oil...but shrewd marketing and gullible well-to-do's...
post #1385 of 2187
2/15/10 at 7:30am
Btw, I wonder if TUC decided to slap some arbitrary (imaginary?) before and after measurements of their upgrades on their website alongside the testimonials, would this thread all but disappear?
post #1386 of 2187
2/15/10 at 8:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lodit View Post

TUC's business is predicated on the fact that at any particular listening session, a consumer won't be able to accurately deduce that the "paid-for-profit" upgrades cause performance to be worse than stock.

Therefore, if they can't be worse, they must at least be equal or better, right?

I beg to differ. I did do a strict, level-matched, blind comparison of stock and TUC upgraded Denon 3800 players last year, and could confidently and repeatedly tell the difference. I wouldn't have been able to do that from memory, as you suspect.

I wouldn't be a repeat customer if I didn't have a lot of confidence in what I was getting. Having said all that, I still haven't done a direct stock vs modded comparison with the Onkyo yet, but I'm planning a couple of blind comparisons later this week.

Some of the points about testimonials I agree with; they didn't sway me much, especially where there were no side-by-side comparisons. It was direct contact with existing customers that did it for me, not claims, testimonials, reviews, specifications OR measurements.

Nick
post #1387 of 2187
2/15/10 at 9:49am
Nick,

We understand that you are strictly with the subjective camp, that the way it sounds is what ultimately influences you on your buying decisions. You've also stated that you understand that there are those that also require measurements to help them make those decisions. Therefore doesn't it raise any questions in your mind as well as in those who may consider a TUC mod as to why he refuses to post even just one set of measurements, which he says he has, to satisfy those of us who have asked to see them? If not why? Don't you think (and Mr. HEA himself) that providing these could increase his customer base? Don't you think that even those who would consider a TUC upgrade, including those in the subjective camp, would not become suspicious, leery since he continues to refuse to provide these? Don't you think that even those open to an upgrade would be asking themselves why doesn't he just post the measurements and get it over with? Don't you think that they may be asking themselves if Mr. HEA is being truthful about having measurements which would lead to raising questions about the other claims he makes? We're not asking for any secrets. Just some answers to some simple questions that any purchaser would ask. Or would they show some tweaks he's made which would give a perceived increase in performance? Those more qualified than myself would be able to answer that. Just asking.
post #1388 of 2187
2/15/10 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

I beg to differ. I did do a strict, level-matched, blind comparison of stock and TUC upgraded Denon 3800 players last year, and could confidently and repeatedly tell the difference. I wouldn't have been able to do that from memory, as you suspect.

Nick

Hi Nick,

I am not disputing your experience. You state that you heard a difference. That justifies for you, the amount you spent to hear it. Cool.

But then, if there is a difference, for better or for worse, would it not be simple enough to measure this difference across the audible range to know what, in fact, changed to influence you?

Would it not appease any and all doubters if TUC could simply publish factual measurements that proved their claims correct? Especially when they specifically state they have taken before and after measurements in their advertisements?

If there's a difference, then something has changed. That delta is what concerns us, especially with no evidence even after all of TUC's proclaimed "successful" upgrades sold to date.
post #1389 of 2187
2/15/10 at 12:00pm
I would be an objectivist if I could be, as it would fit my interests to correlate the art and science of it, but I happen to agree with DS that we don't seem to know what to measure (yet). I have a few ideas of my own about where we're going wrong, and what we should be doing instead, but they're some way off.

My impression is that improved measurements were not a development objective for TUC, and those that may have been taken were simply to support listening tests to assess different, individual techniques, rather than for a before-and-after comparison.

regards, Nick
post #1390 of 2187
2/15/10 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

My impression is that improved measurements were not a development objective for TUC, and those that may have been taken were simply to support listening tests to assess different, individual techniques, rather than for a before-and-after comparison.

regards, Nick

But wouldn't that be rather deceitful then as I would think that 99% of the people, including the general public, if shown the statement that measurements are taken before and after, would interpret that to mean the after measurements are showing improvements and backing his claims, not that they are made just to assess different techniques?
post #1391 of 2187
2/15/10 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

My impression is that improved measurements were not a development objective for TUC, and those that may have been taken were simply to support listening tests to assess different, individual techniques, rather than for a before-and-after comparison.

regards, Nick

Nick,

Seems odd that mods with no measurable added value or improvement could/should be priced in the $thousands.

Even more odd is that people would buy them without the need for proof.

And for a modding company not to strive for distinctly measurable improvements to distance itself from other competitors or to substantiate their claims is perhaps most puzzling.

You've said that objective measurements don't mean that much to you, but none of the above rings a warning bell at all? Seriously?
post #1392 of 2187
2/15/10 at 1:42pm
What i would like to know is how many people have heard a $10,000 player?Because these are the claims made""Your improvements are as good as a ????,worth $10,000"" And as said NO PROOF. Now how about the claim,in writing,""As good as the Esoteric 3-pc P-03,D-03,G-0Rb worth near $45,000""
I personally have never heard a $45,000 source setup,but to tell people this, should have some proof.
I know i was one,and i would like people to be aware that they should check a little further into a mod co. before sending the money.
post #1393 of 2187
2/15/10 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

I did ask Schulte if he had done any before and after measurements on his modifications. I don't have his reply on this PC, but I do recall he said that on the Onkyo, the frequency range was flatter and wider than stock, and the noise floor was reduced by 8 dB on all boards.

Nick

Nick,

You stated this in post #466. Why can't he just provide us with the complete set of measurements as evidence? Surely by now you and he must know that we're not just going to take his word for it.
post #1394 of 2187
2/15/10 at 3:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lodit View Post

Btw, I wonder if TUC decided to slap some arbitrary (imaginary?) before and after measurements of their upgrades on their website alongside the testimonials, would this thread all but disappear?

I've never bought anything from TUC, but I'm curious as to why folks in this thread are demanding measurements from TUC to substantiate that their mods sound better than stock.

Granted TUC is a bit less transparent about the details of the mods they are doing, but doing a quick look at Cullen Circuits, Reference Audio Mods and Modwright's sites, none of these companies provide measurements, yet people were quick to defend some of these modders when DS started slamming them.

So is it the consensus of this group that measurements tell the tale of how any product sounds and that all of the mod-houses (including those listed above) are selling snake oil if they can't/won't provide measurements? Or is there some other burr in people's britches regarding TUC when comparing them to the other electronics modifiers out there?
post #1395 of 2187
2/15/10 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

I would be an objectivist if I could be, as it would fit my interests to correlate the art and science of it, but I happen to agree with DS that we don't seem to know what to measure (yet). I have a few ideas of my own about where we're going wrong, and what we should be doing instead, but they're some way off.

My impression is that improved measurements were not a development objective for TUC, and those that may have been taken were simply to support listening tests to assess different, individual techniques, rather than for a before-and-after comparison.

regards, Nick

we know EXACTLY what to measure...
S/N
dynamic range
bandwidth/freq response
impulse response

how about this:
play the same CD in both, side by side, digital output (or analog) into a differential signal comparator, see what comes out...
see if there is a difference...
post #1396 of 2187
2/15/10 at 7:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7ryder View Post

I've never bought anything from TUC, but I'm curious as to why folks in this thread are demanding measurements from TUC to substantiate that their mods sound better than stock.

Granted TUC is a bit less transparent about the details of the mods they are doing, but doing a quick look at Cullen Circuits, Reference Audio Mods and Modwright's sites, none of these companies provide measurements, yet people were quick to defend some of these modders when DS started slamming them.

So is it the consensus of this group that measurements tell the tale of how any product sounds and that all of the mod-houses (including those listed above) are selling snake oil if they can't/won't provide measurements? Or is there some other burr in people's britches regarding TUC when comparing them to the other electronics modifiers out there?

Chris,

While I do not speaker for anyone else in this thread, I will say that the measurements are solely to discern if there are any audible differences at all (nothing to do with "better sound", as it is purely subjective and individual specific).

For a while now, no one ever knew what exactly TUC mods actually entailed. Not only was it unknown, but TUC placed very stringent applications to those who purchased their products that not only were they not allowed to discuss them, but even look for themselves which would void the 7 day trial and limited warranty (which is still unclear what is covered). The fact that we now know exactly what is done in terms of "modifications" raises even more suspicion of the claims made, not to mention the unconventional and aggressive promotion from some of TUC customers.

Another thing I think is important to mention, is that TUC states right on their website that they perform measurements and DBT. When asked to provide these results, we are told they are irrelevant and do not correlate to sound quality (which was never the argument since it is purely subjective unless you live by measurements alone).

Long story short, no one would be asking for them, if we were never told they existed in the first place.

Again, I speak for myself only.
post #1397 of 2187
2/15/10 at 9:22pm
Chris,

As far as people coming here defending other modders it was when DS slammed them for hiding behind their online names and orchestrating a smear campaign against him and again as usual, no evidence provided which is the same reason he's been slammed all through this thread. As Fanaticalism said, we wouldn't be asking for measurements if we weren't told they existed, not necessarily because they will tell us how something is going to sound. As for the other burr's, this thread is full of them.

Nick, please don't think that I'm picking on you. It's just that it seems like you've become the defacto intermediary to DS since he won't come here to answer questions himself. I know you only speak for yourself.
post #1398 of 2187
2/15/10 at 9:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurPE View Post

we know EXACTLY what to measure...

impulse response

Do you know where to buy a good impulse response meter? I could really use one of those.
post #1399 of 2187
2/16/10 at 9:28am
To qualify an improvement implies that something has changed.
Change is gauged by a measure against a previous moment in time.
Hence, where's the change measurement for TUC's improvements to stock units?

No matter how minute the change, it should be sufficiently obvious to ensure those who buy the upgrade are actually getting something for their money.

But therein lies the dilemma. What if these "mods" only make an improvement of 0.0000001% gain in output dB across 20Hz-22kHz?

More than likely, the measured differences are not printable because they would not prove enticing enough for any rational-minded consumer to fork out $thousands for it.

Makes sense now, doesn't it?

Marketing clouds the reality of what you get for your money in this instance.

Also, to claim that you can make a $500 player sound like a $45,000 one is not difficult.

You can always blame the consumer for not having amps/speakers/cables/interconnects worthy enough to resolve the information passed by the "upgraded" unit.
post #1400 of 2187
2/16/10 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugly1 View Post

Do you know where to buy a good impulse response meter? I could really use one of those.

what most people use is a PC software package with an external I/O card
software example: http://www.sigview.com/
many different sources http://www.linux-sound.org/dsp.html

what you need has a lot to do with what you intend to do (A-D, D-A, digital comm, signal or noise analysis, etc.)


National Instruments make cards, as do may others

the software will 'crunch' and do numerical handling (FFT, etc.) of the input data and may have some sig gen functions...

the card will have the hardware inputs & outputs (repeaters, sig gen, etc.)
post #1401 of 2187
2/16/10 at 1:30pm
he Upgrade Company LLC was invited to join the BBB. The paperwork we received from the BBB indicates that the BBB must extend an invitation and offer to join, after they have throughly checked out the business. Further, the paperwork states that not all
registered business's are eligible for BBB Certification.

Not many earn an A+ Rating either.

One cannot just join the BBB out of the blue. It is not based on ability to pay.
post #1402 of 2187
2/16/10 at 1:41pm
Regarding measurements, of course The Upgrade Company LLC takes a full set of before and after measurements on top of recordings made both before and after the upgrade has been completed. This issue has been covered for years now on our website under our extensive "Q&A" webpage which is accessible via a clickabl hyperlink link at the top fof our site. Just click on "Q&A".

If ever a unit did not measure significantly better after the upgrade was performed, that would be corrected immediately before sending the unit out. With our iron-clad 100% Satisfaction Gaurantee, we make absolutely certain each unit is in tip-top shape before being returned to the customer.
post #1403 of 2187
2/16/10 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHiEndAudio View Post

Regarding measurements, of course The Upgrade Company LLC takes a full set of before and after measurements on top of recordings made both before and after the upgrade has been completed.

Do you share these with your customers?
post #1404 of 2187
2/16/10 at 2:00pm
At the 2007 RMAF (Rocky Mountain Audiofest) in Denver Colorado, The Upgrade Company had more then 300 people come through our demo room in which we demonstrated the following comparisons:

$10,500 EMM LABS CDSA-SE SACD/CD player stock vs. a 2nd EMM LABS CDSA-SE which had been Upgrade Co. upgraded. The patron held the preamp remote contrl and switched back and forth not knowing which player was which. Everyone could hear a big difference. Not one person liked the stock player better. EMM LABS had to abondon their demo room next door!

$14,000 Esoteric X-1 Limited Edition - stock

$800 Denon DVD-2910Ci - upgraded - This is where we really proved our claims:
During double blind comparisons between the stock $10,500 EMM LABS CDSA-SE, the stock $14,000 ESoteric X-01 Limited Edition, and a Signature Edition upgraded Denon 2910, using remote controlled blind switching, done by the patron.

All identical discs, power cords and interconnects. Both expensive players were run balanced into an all-balanced system. The lowly $800 Denon 2910 was run single ended, having a clear disadvantage this way. Same brand of interconnects only single ended on the Denon. We even swapped the discs and power cords for some who were in utter amazement. We even tried different XLR cables people brought with in. Same result: not one person out of more then 300 preferred the expensive players over the $800 MSRP Denon that had a $999 SE upgrade in it. Every single person preferred the Signature Edition Denon 2910 that was upgraded. Typically the differences were so pronounced that the Denon was declared the winner rapidly, with extended listening showing a more pronounced gap between the players.
The Denon was judged superior in every way.

That particular public demonstration was more then 2 years ago. Our upgrades today are vastly superior due to improved parts selections, new synergistic part combinations, and extensive RFI/EMI/Vibration dampening employed on all of our current upgrades.
post #1405 of 2187
2/16/10 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHiEndAudio View Post

At the 2007 RMAF (Rocky Mountain Audiofest) in Denver Colorado, The Upgrade Company had more then 300 people come through our demo room in which we demonstrated the following comparisons:

$10,500 EMM LABS CDSA-SE SACD/CD player stock vs. a 2nd EMM LABS CDSA-SE which had been Upgrade Co. upgraded. The patron held the preamp remote contrl and switched back and forth not knowing which player was which. Everyone could hear a big difference. Not one person liked the stock player better. EMM LABS had to abondon their demo room next door!

$14,000 Esoteric X-1 Limited Edition - stock

$800 Denon DVD-2910Ci - upgraded - This is where we really proved our claims:
During double blind comparisons between the stock $10,500 EMM LABS CDSA-SE, the stock $14,000 ESoteric X-01 Limited Edition, and a Signature Edition upgraded Denon 2910, using remote controlled blind switching, done by the patron.

All identical discs, power cords and interconnects. Both expensive players were run balanced into an all-balanced system. The lowly $800 Denon 2910 was run single ended, having a clear disadvantage this way. Same brand of interconnects only single ended on the Denon. We even swapped the discs and power cords for some who were in utter amazement. We even tried different XLR cables people brought with in. Same result: not one person out of more then 300 preferred the expensive players over the $800 MSRP Denon that had a $999 SE upgrade in it. Every single person preferred the Signature Edition Denon 2910 that was upgraded. Typically the differences were so pronounced that the Denon was declared the winner rapidly, with extended listening showing a more pronounced gap between the players.
The Denon was judged superior in every way.

That particular public demonstration was more then 2 years ago. Our upgrades today are vastly superior due to improved parts selections, new synergistic part combinations, and extensive RFI/EMI/Vibration dampening employed on all of our current upgrades.

Just simply more advertising and NO answers at all. Post your DATA.
post #1406 of 2187
2/16/10 at 7:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHiEndAudio View Post

Regarding measurements, of course The Upgrade Company LLC takes a full set of before and after measurements on top of recordings made both before and after the upgrade has been completed. This issue has been covered for years now on our website under our extensive "Q&A" webpage which is accessible via a clickabl hyperlink link at the top fof our site. Just click on "Q&A".

If ever a unit did not measure significantly better after the upgrade was performed, that would be corrected immediately before sending the unit out. With our iron-clad 100% Satisfaction Gaurantee, we make absolutely certain each unit is in tip-top shape before being returned to the customer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHiEndAudio View Post

At the 2007 RMAF (Rocky Mountain Audiofest) in Denver Colorado, The Upgrade Company had more then 300 people come through our demo room in which we demonstrated the following comparisons:

$10,500 EMM LABS CDSA-SE SACD/CD player stock vs. a 2nd EMM LABS CDSA-SE which had been Upgrade Co. upgraded. The patron held the preamp remote contrl and switched back and forth not knowing which player was which. Everyone could hear a big difference. Not one person liked the stock player better. EMM LABS had to abondon their demo room next door!

$14,000 Esoteric X-1 Limited Edition - stock

$800 Denon DVD-2910Ci - upgraded - This is where we really proved our claims:
During double blind comparisons between the stock $10,500 EMM LABS CDSA-SE, the stock $14,000 ESoteric X-01 Limited Edition, and a Signature Edition upgraded Denon 2910, using remote controlled blind switching, done by the patron.

All identical discs, power cords and interconnects. Both expensive players were run balanced into an all-balanced system. The lowly $800 Denon 2910 was run single ended, having a clear disadvantage this way. Same brand of interconnects only single ended on the Denon. We even swapped the discs and power cords for some who were in utter amazement. We even tried different XLR cables people brought with in. Same result: not one person out of more then 300 preferred the expensive players over the $800 MSRP Denon that had a $999 SE upgrade in it. Every single person preferred the Signature Edition Denon 2910 that was upgraded. Typically the differences were so pronounced that the Denon was declared the winner rapidly, with extended listening showing a more pronounced gap between the players.
The Denon was judged superior in every way.

That particular public demonstration was more then 2 years ago. Our upgrades today are vastly superior due to improved parts selections, new synergistic part combinations, and extensive RFI/EMI/Vibration dampening employed on all of our current upgrades.

Can you please stop posting advertisements and marketing and just have a conversation with us? Your posts come off more as damage control for those passing by than just basic interaction between posters.
post #1407 of 2187
2/16/10 at 8:19pm
it's all marketing, in a tony robbins, franchise, pyramid scheme sort of way...

re: BBB, anyone can join, it's based on levels, more $$$ = higher level
we're a member...you may get adjusted based on complaints...
they have to be adjudicated, ie, a judgement rendered by a court...
otherwise anyone with a gridge could ruin your rep...

but the BBB seems to be more of an advocate for the member, than the consuming public...and why not? who pays their bills?
post #1408 of 2187
2/16/10 at 9:07pm
Let's be clear on the BBB thing. First you apply for membership. It's not like they just come to you and extend an invitation to join because they heard of your sterling reputation or something. It's not based on your ability to pay, unless you don't pay their fees (dues). Not many merchants earn an A+ rating. You only joined 2 months ago! At least you agree to abide by their standards:

Build Trust
Advertise Honestly
Tell the Truth
Be Transparent
Honor Promises
Be Responsive
Safeguard Privacy
Embody Integrity

Uh, OOOPPS!

Regarding the issue of measurements and how their covered on your Q&A page all it says is that you take them and record them. How about sharing those with us instead of sharing customer info. How about a sales pitch where you post those measurements and answer our questions. That might draw more new customers than the jibberish you've been posting lately.
post #1409 of 2187
2/16/10 at 9:29pm
For a real hoot, how about the BS he states as the reason for being booted off of audiogon.



"Well this was an Audiogon decision not ours. It seems that some audio makers of over priced products did not like that our cost effective upgrades transformed reasonably priced components to the point that they outperformed their insanely priced products. These high priced manufacturers want audiophiles to believe that the only way to get great sound is to spend a fortune. The audiophile media continues to enforce this lie."
post #1410 of 2187
2/16/10 at 11:48pm
Proprietary upgrades or not, you might as well be drawing smiley faces underneath the chassis of a piece of equipment and sending it back just as it was without actually showing any physical change. You don't even have to list the components. If I saw a side by side PICTURE of two of the same components with some changes, even ONE change then I'd be more inclined to believe in the Upgrade Company.

In a hobby filled with lying media, deceitful vendors, and snake oil products you sure have a lot of gall telling us "it just works" without why it works. I mean really?
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