"the upgrade company" <component mods> - Page 14  

That's pretty funny, but I was being serious. Let's put aside his lack of educational credentials for the moment and say he's a person who for whatever reason, has had a strong interest in electronics dating back 25 or so years. Maybe he took a few courses, maybe he went to the library and started boning up, subscribed to various amateur electroncs publications, built some kits, tore stuff up and put it back together again. A person like that would've developed skills and knowledge. He'd have practiced and developed skills in soldering and the ability to understand and solve circuit diagrams. A person like that would have the tools necessary to do his job effectively, know how to use them and know how to intepret the results. You'd expect something like that, wouldn't you?

It's not like the above is unusual. You all probably know people who aren't professionally trained but are pretty good at what they do. Might be a grandmother who makes a killer apple pie with the flakiest crust and doesn't have to measure. She looks and feels things with her hands and you wonder why the damned better quality restaurant you go to can't do the same thing. Or maybe it's an amateur astronomer who makes his own telescopes and on his own has studied optics, ground his own mirrors, and has made discoveries. He can have a serious discussion with trained astronomers and even help a college student with their optics and light transmission assignments. Or maybe it's that car modder who's developed understanding of engine performance enhancements and knows what he's got to do to the transmission, axles, suspension, ECU, tires in order to get all that performance to the wheels and start turning 11's at the track.

The world is full of people that haven't had formal training but know their stuff. They might not be able to design a car from scratch. They might not be able to bake everything. They might not be able to design a new glass with a particular property. But within their specialized area they're pretty sharp Why, some even kick Bobby Flay's ass from time to time. People like that can have intelligent discussions with professionals who have trained skills in those area.

Now, is Schulte one of these? The shear breadth of what he says he can work on indicates a great familiarity with the circuit designs and more than a passing knowledge of electrical engineering. But if a problem arises and he is incapable of diagnosing and fixing it and instead needs to turn to an outside source ought that not tell you something? He might be just like that person who fancies himself a Honda Civic modifier (a very popular car for this sort of work) but all he can do is throw on a cold air intake, swap the plugs for Iridium based ones, put on some blue silicone 8mm wires, and replace the exhaust with 2" pipes and a throatier muffler. Both people have replaced perfectly good parts with more expensive and theoretically 'better' parts whose names have a certain panache. Both people know what buzz words to say because they've been repeated enough and for the unitiated, they seem to suggest competence.

Yet, if you ask both if they measured before and after the answer will be no. If you ask them more technical questions they'll look at you like a deer caught in the headlights. A person wrote to me when they asked Shulte a question about 12 volt triggers, he was flummoxed. He was caught in the headlights. I suggest that those interested in Schulte's work, and for that matter any person who is in the market of modifiying equipment, something more probing. Don't be satisified with the auto responses of better pace, timing, darkness, musicality, space, enhanced organicness, more analog, and all that. Anybody can babble those off. Even a comedian. Some work the comedy clubs in Michigan. Some work you.

I think the following sums it up......

Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick
As far as support is concerned, I did have an issue with an upgrade, and I could describe what happened if people are prepared to listen without prejudice.

Could you expand on what problem you encountered?


Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick
The modifications do indeed improve the sound quality, but that is not enough to justify the cost, risk and inconvenience of having the mods done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick
That apart, the upgraded Onkyo was better than all of them at everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick
I think it achieves a level of performance that you would have to spend a great deal more to match. So from the justification point of view, I would say that it more than pays its way.

The first quote appears to be somewhat inconsistent with the two later quotes. You seem to have gone from stating you've had problems with the company and the modifications aren't worth it to outright praise of the company and value of the mods. These inconsistencies might lead lead one to believe you were you offered a free upgrade after your original post or something of that nature.

There's a specific message that I've failing to get across in this thread - I'm a techie, not a writer.

Everybody wants me to compare stock and upgraded Onkyo, but I haven't. I could do - a friend of mine has one, and we've swapped lots of kit before. The answer is a done deal - the upgraded unit will be a lot better, even with blind-testing. I haven't the slightest doubt about this, and I might organise something over the holiday to prove the point.

I don't think it will prove much, though. Suppose the upgrade costs 100% of the stock cost, but the SQ improvement was only 10% (if you could compare things like that). And suppose buying a better stock processor cost 50% more, but the performance improvement was also 50%. In that hypothetical case, the A/B comprison would show that the upgrade did indeed improve SQ. But that in itself wouldn't make the upgrade worthwhile, because trading up to a better stock processor would cost less and give more performance.

What I've been trying to do all year is evaluate the performance improvement of the upgrade with what you might be able to achieve by trading up instead. Yes, the upgrade does cost typically 100% of the stock cost, but I wanted to find out how far up the food chain the modded unit went. Does the upgraded unit match the best stock units costing 10% more, or 100% more, or 1000% more?

While I haven't heard an Arcam AV888 or Classe SSP800 yet, I have heard the best of the rest. And the modded Onkyo is better than all of them. By a small margin in some cases, and by a significant margin in others, but I couldn't find any way to beat the performance of the upgraded Onkyo. Maybe the 888 or 800 would be the measure of it; I don't know yet; though I'm sure no Denon is. What's now obvious to me is that to match the performance of the modded Onkyo, I would have to spend at least two or three times the combined cost of the unit and the upgrade, maybe more, and that is the answer that I've been looking for.

To answer the question about problems I had - when I got my modded Deon 3800, I didn't think it sounded that great, and I told Schulte. He wasn't happy about this, but rather than telling me how deaf, dumb and stupid I must be (like some round here would have you suppose) he immediately offered to send a replacement unit all the way to me, in the UK. I'm not completely ignorant of electronics, and we discussed a few ideas. It turned out that I simply needed to re-wire the 115V cable that I had made up with the wrong polarity. I use 115V units here in the UK, and getting the mains, transformers and grounding schemes right is a bit more complicated than in the US. But Schulte helped me through every step of the way until I had it right, and his customer support has been incomparably good. I'm sorry that doesn't fit the pattern of some people's apparent experience, but that's what I found.

regards, Nick

Polarity and grounding is harder to achieve in the U.K.? Have they banned multi-meters?

Nope - just me being stupid. I used a diagram of a socket rather than a plug when making up the cable.

To be very fair, If you are all out for performance, you shouldn't even be using a 115V mains cable in the UK and any form of transformers. However, getting the polarity wrong won't make any differences in sound quality as I have tried it using a Euro schuko plug with ground.

Did you have a look inside the player???? I did when I recieved my ML 32 since it sounded the same as stock to only find additional 4 ferrites ( No foil on them, he must had ran out of the stuff at the time) for the sum of $1500 USd, if you dont call that a ripp off, I have no idea what it is.

He said, no way it sounds the same as stock since he has spent 2 days working on it and done 48hrs of listening test afterwards. He then quietly shut up and refunded when I told him what I had found inside.

That was my experience so I guess you must be the lucky one afterall.

I'd love to see that exchange of emails if you have them, classba.

All in due course Chu... besides, he has recorded the conversation LOUD & Clear... I might even have taken some photos of it, let me dig very deep.

Below is your initial response to queries on the matter.


The quote provided by you earlier in the thread on the same subject when compare to your later explanation shows more irregularities upon the irregularities. You initially indicated that you could identify the unique sonics of the upgraded 3800 player and did so under blind testing conditions and I presume since you sent it off to a friend you also thought the upgraded unit offered better fidelity. This friend after comparing the modded unit to an unmodded unit could tell no difference between the two.

Now you state that it was you would didn't feel the unit sounded great. It's sounds to me that you at first thought the player sounded great but ascertained this without blind testing like you originally indicated. After your friend said it sounded the same you then listened again and your subjective impressions blew you once around once again but in the opposite direction this time when in reality nothing had changed. I also presume if you sent your new rewired cord and player back your friend he would again find no difference and you once again would be telling a different story.

The part of the story that really doesn't make any sense is the the bit about the sonic fix via A/C cord re-wiring. What sound qualities were you identifying at first when you claimed you could identify the modded player blind tested prior to the cord re-wire fix. Did it sound worse than the unmodded player and that was the motivation to send it to your friend, so he could confirm your initial impressions that it sounded worse? Either you mislead us and you did not perform blind tests, your tests are seriously flawed or like many understand subjective impressions can be quite malleable and therefore can be less than reliable when attempting to convince others of perceived improvements.

Anyways, I really don't care if the player sounds better, worse, or the same after the mod but with the blatant irregularities and outright misrepresentations of blind tests noted with your story coupled with the circus ring style in which the story was rolled out to us I'm finding the credibility of your experience with this player somewhat suspect.

There are no irregularities, I was simply trying to keep my posts reasonably short.

I didn't have a strong opinion on the modded 3800 when I got it; it sounded fine to me, but I hadn't compared it to a stock 3800 at home. A number of friends do have them though, and I lent mine to one of them. He didn't think there was much difference between them, and I was rather surprised, and had to hear for myself. He was using a very good system with Lexicon MC12, Bryston amps and PMC BB5 speakers. He did a strict blind A/B on me, and I was confident of hearing the differences. The upgraded unit sounded slightly more transparent, with more detail and depth to the sound stage, and a leaner and more extended bass. I correctly identified the differences every time. Having said that, the differences were small, not like the Onkyo upgrade at all. BOTH of us were unimpressed, and that was when I called David Schulte.

Getting the 3800 back on course was a long job. After trying several step-downs, I settled on using a 600W torroidal transformer in an earthed metal box, plus a screened two-wire connection to the player. The processor was earthed and the player grounded to the processor through the analogue audio connections. This was the final configuration that I ended up with, and it took a lot of experimentation on both mine and Schulte's part to achieve that. I also changed the fuse in the player on Schulte's recommendation, and this proved a further slight gain. My case was pretty unusual, and not typical of TUC's customers. The benefits of this work were greater resolution at the frequency extremes, more detail and dynamics to the sound, better neutrality, and a slightly less hidden and more up-front presentation.

On the basis of this experience, I also tried experimenting with the Onkyo. I tried using a mains cable without an earth. Schulte had previously told me that this would kill the sound quality, and sure enough it did. The Onkyo lost resolution, small-signal detail and a lot of soundstage. In this configuration, my Proceed AVP-2 sounded consistently better with both spdif and analogue pass-through, and I was relieved to get the Onkyo back to normal.

Nick

E-mails

Hi David,

The parts in the No. 32 are much more expensive then usual, the most expensive in fact and more as much as those in the CDSA, maybe more, however the time is shorter to do a No. 32 by a few hours.
I have already quoted you a very low price on the No 32 from $1500 down to $995.

Shipping all the way to the UK on the three boxes will be in excess of $600 more likely $700 as they are big and oversized and of extremely high valuation for insurance, so you'll need to include in your wire transfer another $600 that we agreed to over the telephone last night on top of whatever we work out for the Signature Edition upgrades to the CDSA& No.32.

Refund E-mail

Hi David,

The ML 32 certificate was sent back out to you yesterday 5th march 2009 for a full refund with a tracking number to sign for.

Please refund me the amount noted back to my paypal account xxxxxxxxxx

Kind regards,
David

Hi David,

I've sent the Paypal refund to xxxxxxxxxxxxxx I did it ahead of time since the
certificate has not arrived yet. I trust you



I NOW ASK YOU GUYS HOW MUCH DOES 4 X TDK FERRITES COST IN THE USA???????

HOPEFULLY PHOTOS OF THE ML32 INNARDS VERY SOON.

$250/ferrite plus shipping to wherever you live. The labor to install them is free. Looking forward to the photos.

Nor are you a lackey for TUC, I feel for you considering you're a valued member of this and other forums (as I've looked into since the whole TUC thing was brought to light) that has unfortunantley fallen into the web of lies and decite constructed by said company.

I'm still not sure what you stand to gain out of the whole thing, or if it's just your feeling of indebtness for them swapping out the 3800... But I'm sure if given a second chance to go back and make the decision all over again we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. I don't see you as the type to be herding the flies into the web, but that's what you find yourself stuck doing. I'm sure I won't hear it, but that's okay, kinda like my $125 speaker cable. I know it's there even if I can't hear it

Seems like the review was done on an audiophile site where they do measurments with their ears on their own systems. The guy seems to have one of those sytems where you can here differences in power cords and the burn in process which happens in capacitors, tubes, wire etc.... You can hear this with a resolving systems. I take it you have never witnessed this before?

[quote=classba;17794374]To be very fair, If you are all out for performance, you shouldn't even be using a 115V mains cable in the UK and any form of transformers. However, getting the polarity wrong won't make any differences in sound quality as I have tried it using a Euro schuko plug with ground.

Are you saying the incoming power is going to make a sonic difference? Would this be the same for power cords too?

Or he has an overactive imagination.

Just found this

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

The most expensive largest ferrite only costing £4 GBP or $6.4 USD each.

Yes, but you need to put them precisely in the right spot and that can take days of careful listening as you nudge them 0.1mm this way or that.

So.....
TUC modified your ML 32 and guaranteed that it would sound great
You found that it didn't sound any better than before.
You asked for your money back.
And ... TUC gave you your money back.

I've never heard of anyone returning their equipment to TUC before, but it does sound to me like an unsuccessful modification, and Schulte honoring his guarantee (even though you did pay a lot for shipping). If that transcation had happened to me, I wouldn't have been happy either, and wouldn't be supporting TUC - I'd probably put it down to experience and answer questions if people asked. I've made mistakes before, and will probably make more. The worst mistake I made several years ago was to believe all the unanimous reviews about the latest and greatest Denon AVR, and I bought one. It was very disappointing, but I couldn't find a negative word about it anywhere.

Since then I've never trusted any reviewers (still don't), and have to listen to everything for myself or use only trusted friends. That makes life difficult, and people often don't believe what I say. I've listened to a Denon AVP/POA on two (all-day) occasions this year, and thought it was poor both times. Everybody else seemd to assume that all the unanimous gushing reviews must be right, but it was just history repeating itself. I've nothing against Denon, as I think the 3800 is a great buy. As I hinted earlier, it just doesn't make the best modified player, that's all.

Some equipment is more receptive to upgrading than others, and I've started to see a pattern emerging. I guess I would recommend a different player in the light of my experience. In fairness, Schulte did tell me that the upgrade improvement with the SC885 was three times greater than for the 3800, and that's pretty much how it turned out. I've learned to trust what Schulte tells me, and I've just bought a multi-channel power amp solely on his advice. I'll be doing business with TUC again, but it won't necessarily be with the best-sounding stock equipment in its class.

Give it a few months, and my crystal ball tells me we'll be having a similar conversation about upgraded Emotiva UMC-1's.

Nick

Ultimately, I lost out in Paypal fees and two way shipping cost.

Look, it was not about the quarantee nor the refund. It was what he had promised regarding the amount of parts being changed/ install some 30+ and to find out only 4 of ferrites used for the amount I paid really got me. He could had told me to do the same for peanuts and save all the hassel. You are English and I'm sure you know the slang word..... Skanked??
I never bought the No. 32 from him.
Lastly, how would you know if anyone had returned their equipment to TUC???

You know Nick, even if you wouldn't post a pic, after hearing all this, I'd be mighty tempted to take a peek inside and see what was done.

I've seen this point come up several times, and it definitely is a valid point. I agree that there needs to be a comparison, because subjective experience based upon the memory of how something sounds will not convince most folks on this forum.

Having said that, I think any sort of "relative" comparison should suffice. Comparing the stock unit to a TUC upgraded unit is a great example of this. I think the reason we don't see much of this specific comparison is because most folks do not have two units on hand or available to them.

Another example of a relative comparison is to compare the stock unit to another model/brand unit, both before and after the TUC upgrade. I did this with my upgraded Pioneer BDP-05FD Blu Ray player. I compared the 05, before the TUC upgrade, with my Arcam DV27A, and for DVDs, the DV27A had a better picture. For 2 channel audio, the DV27A had better audio. I've now compared the DVD video, following the TUC upgrade, and the 05 is now better than the DV27A. (FYI - I'm using component video to my Pioneer Elite Pro-710HD TV) Regarding audio, I believe the 05 has greatly improved, but that is subjective at this point. I hope to do a 2 channel comparison with my DV27A this week to see how the audio compares.

For me, both comparisons are acceptable. With regards to the audio comparisons, some require a DBT, in order to add to the validity of the test. My wife and I always do a DBT, when doing audio comparisons. Obviously, this does not apply to video.

Dave

Couldn't you just keep this over on the Polk Forums? They eat this kind of stuff up over there. Like a monkey lapping at it's own vomit even.

Maybe I will see you there! I have never been there before so I will need you help finding this place. Do I just follow the puke?

Why do you keep posting non-sense..To much Kool-Aid?

Please post some statistical data to back up your claims. Otherwise save us all some scrolling time...Got any?, thought not....
You could at least make an effort post some imaginary data to support the imaginary claims..I'm sure those new ferrites and foil wraps made a world of difference in your sound and PQ, get real kid..

Statistical data? What in the world are you talking about? If reviewers could have some sort of measured sound quality they would not have to write a review now would they? You are completely confused with differences between sound quality and measured impedance, capacitance, output voltage, distortion etc... Things that reviewers have looked past and only measured with their ears. Please enlighten all of us on what statistical data you look for when picking one piece of equipment over another? If you could tell what one piece of equipment was going to sound like over another by looking at the "statistical data" LOL then you would be the only reviewer we would need. We would all be drinking more Kool-Aid and reading less reviews. I am curious to know how you buy your tv's. Reading "statistical data" or actually viewing the tv? Just to set you straight, any review or post is an opinion, nothing more nothing less. So, if you have a problem scrolling through this I will understand.

Well "statistical data" so far shows that this is the ONLY thread you have posted in here on AVS, and that you even joined up right around the same time this thread was started.

So just for some more "statistical data", why is that?

Hi TweakerInWA,

I apologize for your frustration - I'd be happy to help, if I can. You are looking for statistical data to back up my claims. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "statistical data" (sorry), so I'd appreciate it if you could you give me some examples/specifics of what you mean.

For me and my audio/video experiences, my preferences are determined by subjective comparisons. I prefer video that looks better to me, and I prefer audio that sounds better to me. I understand that not all folks operate that way - everyone has their preferences and their methods for choosing audio/video equipment. I'm sharing my opinion in this thread, based upon my preferences. It may be relevant to some folks, and it's obviously not relevant to others.

Dave

Have you ever considered that your subjective experiences could be tainted from knowing/believing certain things SHOULD happen and therefore your conclusions of your listening experience follow those beliefs?

The only way to really know the truth is to do controlled listening tests. Otherwise its just tainted opinion. Yes, some people will follow that tainted, extremely subjective opinion that possibly leads them down a wasted $$$ path.

Those same people that actually read and care about 100% subjective opinion would probably believe cable lifters improve sound too....not something I would consider good for audio though


I guess if you have to waste/spend money and you choose not to improve the room or the speakers. 99% of the all sound improvements come from those alone ONCE electronics is at a certain performance level.

Hi penngray,

I do understand what you are getting at, and I agree with you that subjective opinions could be tainted and could lead down a wasted $$$ path. What I'm not sure about and I'm hoping you can explain is the parameters for what you consider "controlled listening tests". It's possible that I abide by those, but it's also possible that I do not abide by those. Could you help me out and let me know what you consider to be controlled listening tests?

Thanks so much,

Dave