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SIM2 MICO50 LED Has Arrived - Page 14

post #391 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

Measured native ON/OFF contrast comes in at max 2600:1. This and the limited brightness are holding me back from replacing my Sharp 20k...

I understand where you are coming from, but I can tell you, since I own a Sharp 20k, that the brightness, and especially the black level on the Mico50 are a huge step up over the Sharp.

I suggest you find a way to see the projector in person, before you choose to go by one reviewers specs.

On your point about the second generation LED's, I wouldn't expect much change from newer ones, as these are quite bright, and equivalent to the 200w UHP bulb that you find in most comparable projectors today. In fact you would have to open the iris all the way on your Sharp 20k, and put the bulb on high, just to match the brightness of the Mico 50, and then the Sharp would look really bad next to it.

If you want a 1000 lumen plus machine, you will probably have to wait for a 3chip version.
post #392 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

Darin, I just don't see anything that jumps out at me saying that the RS35 does it better. It is possible that there is a scene, but I am not aware of it. I have AVP 1 but not 2.

To my eye, the fades to black are total. My retina is not the fastest at adapting to the dark, so it is possible that there is some light, but it sure looks like a complete shut down to me.

I have watched a lot of very dark material, and have not been disappointed by the performance of the Mico, and have not once wanted to switch back to my RS35, which is hanging underneath it, just ready to go.

Wow, this says a lot. Is there *any* type of scenes where you think the RS35 might win over the Mico?

I'm in the minority that prefers the JVC over the Lumis when it comes to intra-scene contrast. Wondering how the Mico compares in this regard...
post #393 of 701
"On your point about the second generation LED's, I wouldn't expect much change from newer ones,"

Your machine probably has 10th generation LED's, just the 1st that make for a viable HT pj.

Advancements aren't going to freeze at the level of the one you own.
post #394 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

I'm in the minority that prefers the JVC over the Lumis when it comes to intra-scene contrast. Wondering how the Mico compares in this regard...

So you're actually saying that you prefer a machine with far lower intra-scene contrast? Each to thier own I suppose.
post #395 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

So you're actually saying that you prefer a machine with far lower intra-scene contrast? Each to thier own I suppose.

The opposite actually. I prefer the higher intra-scene contrast of the JVC. Am I using the wrong term? I believe it was you who educated me on the difference. I am trying to describe contrast that doesn't require high ANSI - example: a scene of a glass bowl - where the scene requires many subtle shades of the same color to give the object depth. Scenes like this look better (to my eye) on the JVC versus the Lumis (or my C3X1080 for that matter). The Lumis will kick ass in other types of scenes of course (I'm in no way trying to knock the Lumis here).
post #396 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

The opposite actually. I prefer the higher intra-scene contrast of the JVC. Am I using the wrong term?

Some people mean ANSI CR specifically when they say intra-scene (or intra-image) contrast. My take is that there are billions of intra-image contrast ratios and ANSI CR is just one fairly extreme example (although to be really anal ANSI CR done as specified uses 2 different images and so is more of an average of 2 intra-image CRs). As it is the Lumis will have better intra-image CR in some images and RS35 in others and it depends on what the particular image is. For the specific images that are defined for ANSI CR the Lumis will of course have way more intra-image CR than the RS35 (at least from the projector without taking room effects into account).

As far as bit depth or number of shades of color types of things, that is really something else.

--Darin
post #397 of 701
Thread Starter 
I just read a Google Translation of the German review and it appears to very complimentary. I'm not sure what method they used to arrive at the on/off contrast number. I don't see any difficiency in contrast, and the blacks are intense. I also have no problem with lens focus at the edges. Mine is a T2. (I've heard, by the way,that it is not recommended to use the Mico/T1 lens with anamorphic lenses).

They praised the build quality, the color purity and gamut (good examples shown of pale vs saturated color), the out-of-box linearity, the sharpness, the liquid-cooling, and the suitability of wedding LED to DLP. They even said the price wasn't out of line (after factorying in the cost of 10 to 15 UHP lamps over 30,000 hours for a non LED projector). The faint humming from the power supply,the intensity of the status lights on the back of the unit, and the non-intuitive remote were minor annoyances to them. All in all, though, the review depics the Mico as an excellent piece of engineering....validating my good judgement (or good luck) as an early adopter.
post #398 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

validating my good judgement (or good luck) as an early adopter.

Pete, I was expecting the Mico to be an average performer for a single chip DLP. What Ive seen is very different indeed.

The Mico is absolutely the best single chip DLP yet. Its is also, in terms of image quality and fidelity, without equal at its price point....and some way above it. I have spoken to people here, whose opinion I view as 100% bankable, and they are in total agreement.
post #399 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

That makes sense. I guess the high On/Off numbers are not as important as they are made out to be, especially when the LEDs can shut off completely on fades to black, and the ANSI cr is so high.

When you have a black image with bright parts on it (e.g. end of film credits), do the LEDs completely shut off for the black areas?
post #400 of 701
It is my understanding that is part of the dynamic black feature, and it certainly looks like they do.

To answer your earlier question, no, there is no scene that I would prefer the RS35 over the Mico. The RS35 has become my backup projector, and I will only use it should something happen to the Mico, and it needs to go in for repair.

The Mico exceeds the RS35 in every area that I can perceive. Absolute black, image depth, sharpness etc. The brightness is about the same as the RS35 in low bulb, with the iris open, or perhaps a bit brighter than that, because one of the unique nature of the LED's is that the image appears brighter than it actually is.
post #401 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

When you have a black image with bright parts on it (e.g. end of film credits), do the LEDs completely shut off for the black areas?

No. There is no localized, or zone based, dimming. That is expected in future generations.
post #402 of 701
How many individual LED bulbs are in Mico 50?

I don't see how you could do any significant zone based dimming with front projection...

Either way, it is nice to see new improvements. Looking forward to the 2nd and 3rd Gens...
post #403 of 701
One can if modulation of the LED is fast enough. Like the modulation in the new Laser addressed Phosphor displays from Prysm. Beamcontrol and powermodulation was never good enough to achieve this in directview CRT.
post #404 of 701
Here is a short review I just ran across:

http://www.cepro.com/article/hands_o..._50_projector/

He is right about the HDMI synch issues, but I don't think it is just the Mico. Every Sim2 projector I have had have been rather temperamental on HDMI.
post #405 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

I don't see how you could do any significant zone based dimming with front projection.

A lot of people say that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

How many individual LED bulbs are in Mico 50?

There are 3 light sources...R,G and B. see image below.
post #406 of 701
Thanks for the answers, guys.

I've grown to really love my C3X1080 and I run on a 11' wide scope screen, but I do still have my high power of identical size sitting around gathering dust. The new technology, however new, sounds very impressive and I'm very tempted to try this out.
post #407 of 701
Thanks for the pic.

What caught my eye is how small the LED's are, and how much metal the package uses, presumably to conduct the heat out fast enough.

If that's a standard 1/4" spade connector, I get about .11" x .19" by measuring and scaling.

I guess they don't go for more output by making bigger LED's or arraying them, and thickening the package, because they'd still get too hot and require a fancier more expensive cooling method.

The other thing that surprised me is that the LED's are colored.

I thought they just emitted the proper wavelength and would be colorless when not operating, but I guess they need some filtering to get the colors desired.
post #408 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

A lot of people say that.



There are 3 light sources...R,G and B. see image below.

Yes, but how many LEDs are in each light source?
post #409 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

Yes, but how many LEDs are in each light source?

There seems to be some confusion over what these light sources are, or what the image I posted shows. Let me explain....

Look at the image I posted. Each colour source is a single 12 mm2 emitting area (4.6 x 2.6 mm x mm). They are 16:9 AR surfaces

They emit directly to air rather than a more conventional LED capsule. The surface emission characteristic is 100% uniform.

Hope this helps.
post #410 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

I don't see how you could do any significant zone based dimming with front projection...

You arguably could with a 4th panel, either transmissive or reflective.
post #411 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Goff View Post

You arguably could with a 4th panel, either transmissive or reflective.

I agree, this would be the best way to improve intrascene contrast for DLPs and would be the best way to overcome there relatively poor on/off contrast. Just adding an LCD panel at the end of the optics train with a simple one to one transfer lens would improve the image dramatically.
post #412 of 701
"Just adding an LCD panel at the end of the optics train with a simple one to one transfer lens would improve the image dramatically."

Except for the 50+% loss to polarization.
post #413 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Just adding an LCD panel at the end of the optics train with a simple one to one transfer lens would improve the image dramatically."

Except for the 50+% loss to polarization.

you start with linear polarize light either with a combiner at the light source or a polarized light source
post #414 of 701
Unless LED's put out polarized light, you still have the loss, and even if they do, would it be maintained all the way through the optical path?
post #415 of 701
Sim2 didn't make it to ISE it seems, no Mico in sight today. The only one that were actually playing at the show, even if only static specsheetdata*, and not video was the DPI. And the PD (though not the Avielo by PD one = Kroma) F32, also with static content:-(. The Vivitek was just sitting on a shelve, the Runco was only demoed once per hour, as part of an extended talk about Runco, so it might have as well not been demoed.

*outrageous claim of 1000 lumens out of that Delta Engine. It clearly didn't show 1000 lumens either. Even running all three LEDs continously 1000 lumens is out of reach for this (type of) projector.
post #416 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Unless LED's put out polarized light, you still have the loss, and even if they do, would it be maintained all the way through the optical path?

Even if the Leds do not put out polarized light you can force them to while combining both s and P polarization using an ingenious device called a Rhomb microlens. this is the same device used in Lcos projectors to prevent a 50 percent loss. Refelecting off a front surface mirror will not cause any change in polarization but there will be some slight changes on the skew rays going through the one to on imaging lens. Still you should get greater than 80 percent efficiency.
post #417 of 701
Interesting.

How expensive are these? Are they typical in LCD and LCOS pj's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

Even if the Leds do not put out polarized light you can force them to while combining both s and P polarization using an ingenious device called a Rhomb microlens. this is the same device used in Lcos projectors to prevent a 50 percent loss. Refelecting off a front surface mirror will not cause any change in polarization but there will be some slight changes on the skew rays going through the one to on imaging lens. Still you should get greater than 80 percent efficiency.
post #418 of 701
All I need is a Rhomb microlens and a flux capacitor and I'm all set...
post #419 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

I agree, this would be the best way to improve intrascene contrast for DLPs and would be the best way to overcome there relatively poor on/off contrast. Just adding an LCD panel at the end of the optics train with a simple one to one transfer lens would improve the image dramatically.

However, even with current LCD's using local dimming, it seems crude since the area of local dimming is 'low resolution' The true ideal would be dimming of individual pixels... anything less is 'crude'. What if you have need for half of a zone to be full white and half to be full black? Anyhow, local 'zone' dimming seems crude... You would think you might even be able to see individual rectangular zones given diferences in brightness....
post #420 of 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

However, even with current LCD's using local dimming, it seems crude since the area of local dimming is 'low resolution' The true ideal would be dimming of individual pixels... anything less is 'crude'. What if you have need for half of a zone to be full white and half to be full black? Anyhow, local 'zone' dimming seems crude... You would think you might even be able to see individual rectangular zones given diferences in brightness....

Then don't make the zone rectangular, but overlapping. That is basically what Brightside did and I can't imagine any other way working well.

As far as if you need half a zone to be full white and half to be full black that isn't really a problem for human vision if the zones are small and the native CR is high enough. Human eyes tend to see dark gray next to white as black anyway. There is veiling flare with our vision around the brighter stuff. I'm sure the contrast ratio between 2 adjacent pixels off your screen isn't that high anyway. Lenses are limited for one thing.

While 2 million zones might be the ideal, imagine going to 1 million zones (2 pixels each)? Could anybody detect that if each zone could do 1000:1 at the chips? I don't know exactly how many zones it would take for a person to not be able to tell the difference between that and 2 million zones (basically the each individual pixel thing), but I'm confident that it is way less than 1 million. Brightside determined with testing that they needed around 2000 zones. But their panel in front was only rated at around 1000:1 on/off CR (might have been less in actuality). With higher native less zones may work just as well as the lower native with 2000 zones.

--Darin
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