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Spears & Munsil Calibration Advice - Page 2

post #31 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Yes, input adjust. Its the only picture control I use. The rest are done on the display side.

On the VP50, you also need to set sharpness to -1 to turn it off. The VP50Pro does not require this.

I'm not seeing any Contrast adjustment in the Input Adjust menu of the VP50Pro. The only Contrast adjustments I see are in Output Setup->Picture Control->Contrast, and in Picture Control->Contrast. Which one should I set?
post #32 of 162
"Picture Control->Contrast"
post #33 of 162
In adjusting the brightness, should I leave the "final" setting for pluge low so that I can see the checkerboards on both sides of the screen, as well as the two vertical bars? Or should both checkerboards disappear?
post #34 of 162
The checkerboard should still be visible.
post #35 of 162
I believe the checkerboards are at like level 17 or something if I recall correctly. In any case they are just ever barely so slightly above black. You basically wouldn't really see them except as dither on a DLP display, which is what I recall they were intended for. You're not really supposed to be able to discern any single step in 8-bit video, which is what that checkerboard is, again if I'm recalling correctly that they are in fact at 17(I believe it probably says in the manual or on the pop-up description, just not in front of that at the moment).

So let me put it this way: the checkerboards are just barely above black, but you shouldn't really be able to see them beyond just barely making out that there is something there. But this would sort of vary based on the display. On something like a CRT I probably wouldn't pay attention to the checkerboard really at all. But it can be very useful on a DLP where you can examine dithering and give you an exceedingly accurate black point setting, or at least to locate the exact black point of the display (you may want to be slightly above it if you're viewing with ambient light, or the ANSI CR of the display or system(room) is low for instance).

I hope that helps. Unfortunately a more complete answer like this one isn't the clearest kind of answer, but it's trying to be the most correct answer... :|

edit: simultaneous posting!
post #36 of 162
The checker is made of up level 16 and 17 squares. It should barely be visible at your seating position.
post #37 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

I just checked the DVDO Duo and it also requires that contrast be set to -1. If you use the clipping pattern, what you will see at 0 are two squares almost the same level in red and blue. When you set to -1, they become distinct squares.

Do you have a similar recommendation for the Oppo BDP-83 which comes with the calibration disc?
I recall reading somewhere that it was necessary to set the contrast in the player to -3
in order to view all the squares in the clipping pattern.
post #38 of 162
On the clipping screen, only the white rectangle doesn't have the internal rectangles. In order to adjust the white rectangle to see the internal rectangles I have to set brightness from +4 to -8. Then I can see all the internal rectangles and there is no clipping. Does that make sense?
post #39 of 162
Quote:


I recall reading somewhere that it was necessary to set the contrast in the player to -3

The levels out of the OPPO are equal to a test pattern generator. By that I mean they are perfect by default. If you adjust contrast in the OPPO, you are trying to work around a shortcoming in something else downstream.

Best quality is obtained by adjusting the picture controls on the display.

In the case of the DUO, I would do this. Figure out which color space is the best to send to the display. Then set the OPPO to output the same color space and connect the OPPO directly to the display. Adjust the picture controls on the display to get the best quality. Next, set the OPPO to 422 output and connect the DUO back into the chain. (OPPO (422) -> Duo (???) -> Display.

The above applies to any scenario really. Maybe you have another video processor or receiver in between the player and display. Get them out of the way for the initial calibraiton to know what is going on.
post #40 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

The levels out of the OPPO are equal to a test pattern generator. By that I mean they are perfect by default. If you adjust contrast in the OPPO, you are trying to work around a shortcoming in something else downstream.

Thanks for confirming that!
post #41 of 162
Hi guys, are the same settings required on the DVDO Edge as well when adjusting the brightness and contrast? It appears to me that the levels in the test pattern are lower (darker) than that of the Oppo with the test disk...?

I was feeding the Oppo thru the DVDO... I will have to connect the Oppo direct to the TV. I was not aware that it was the reference of the 2.

Thanks!
post #42 of 162
You want to send 4:2:2 into the Edge, from the OPPO. Beyond that, I use the same settings from OPPO to display vs. OPPO->Edge->Display.

I would avoid adjusting the picture controls in either the OPPO or the Edge. You want to adjust them on the display. Because of a color space conversion bug in the Edge, you may want to set saturation to -2. This bug was recently fixed in the Duo. The VP50, 50Pro, and Edge all have the same bug.

It is possible the difference you saw was because the OPPO was sending in one color space to the display and the edge was sending in another. I would avoid the "auto" settings and find out what works best into your display by following the steps in our choosing a color space article.
post #43 of 162
Thanks for the prompt reply. I've been struggling with the contrast and brightness over the last number of weeks, since I've purchased the Edge. I was never satisfied with picture. I'd set the levels on my plasma using the Oppo or the Edge patterns but neither matched and ultimately the picture was either too dark or too bright, with seemingly no sweet spot to be found. Plus I currently have those settings on "Auto" as well for the color space.

I'll clean it up with your recommendations this evening when the room is dark with the Oppo directly connected to the TV...

Have you experienced any of these issues with the Denon DVP-602CI? I've purchased one of them for another room in the house but have not installed it yet.

Thank you very much!
post #44 of 162
Quote:
I'd set the levels on my plasma using the Oppo or the Edge patterns but neither matched and ultimately the picture was either too dark or too bright, with seemingly no sweet spot to be found.

Don't use the patterns built into the Edge. Their contrast pattern does not cover the same range as ours and the average picture level is too high to set brightness. You can play the patterns from the OPPO into the Edge and then into the display to calibrate. That is how I recommend you use them.

I have no experience with the Denon, sorry.
post #45 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

I would avoid adjusting the picture controls in either the OPPO or the Edge. You want to adjust them on the display. Because of a color space conversion bug in the Edge, you may want to set saturation to -2. This bug was recently fixed in the Duo. The VP50, 50Pro, and Edge all have the same bug.

Hi Stacey,
If Im comprehending your above comment right I take it the VP50/pro would also contain the same bug as the Edge and therefore best to set saturation to -2 also, unless your using 4:2:2 in/out of the DVDO then the bug would'nt have any affect ?..

Thanks to you I know about the contrast bug -1 setting but did'nt know about the Saturation bug...

Thanks Stacey..
post #46 of 162
Quote:


Thanks to you I know about the contrast bug -1 setting but did'nt know about the Saturation bug...

They are in fact the same bug. The saturation -2 is a better fix than contrast -1. Don't perform both. Neither really fix the problem.
post #47 of 162
Thanks Stacey..
post #48 of 162
Is there anyone that can explain "simply" how to use this disc to set contrast? I've read the tutorial numerous times and have practiced, and get different results. If it matters, my display is the Mits. HC3800(1080p) projector and Pan. BD65 Blu-ray player. This disc is definitely the most complicated as far as setting contrast. Thanks.
post #49 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Is there anyone that can explain "simply" how to use this disc to set contrast? I've read the tutorial numerous times and have practiced, and get different results. If it matters, my display is the Mits. HC3800(1080p) projector and Pan. BD65 Blu-ray player. This disc is definitely the most complicated as far as setting contrast. Thanks.

If the tutorial is not the same as the User's Guide, the info in blue below should help. Many modern flat panel displays can have contrast set to 100% without clipping in which case you might find contrast more usable to aid light output and/or gamma.

Contrast - This pattern is designed for fine-tuning the settings of the brightness and
contrast controls. All of the numbered white bars should be visible and distinct from the
surrounding background. The numbered black bars should be distinct from the
background starting at bar 17. The ramp that goes from black to white and back should not
have an extra-wide center white stripe. The ramp that goes from white to black and back
should have a wider black stripe in the center. Both of the center ramps should be smooth
and free of visible steps. Note that it may be difficult to see the highest and lowest three or
four levels clearly unless you are in a dark room with your eyes fully adjusted to the
ambient level.
post #50 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Is there anyone that can explain "simply" how to use this disc to set contrast? I've read the tutorial numerous times and have practiced, and get different results. If it matters, my display is the Mits. HC3800(1080p) projector and Pan. BD65 Blu-ray player. This disc is definitely the most complicated as far as setting contrast. Thanks.

Try using 'Dynamic Range High' to adjust contrast.

I also like to use 'Dynamic Range Low' for brightness.
post #51 of 162
When adjusting contrast you.

1. Want to get contrast as high as possible, below the pointing of clipping.
2. Produce the smoothest gradient.

--

1. Start with either the dynamic rang high, or contrast pattern, and turn contrast up until the last bar on the bottom right clips. Now turn contrast back down to see that last bar. ie you make it clip and then stop it from clipping, so you know the actual clipping point.

This tells you the top end of white.

2. Go to the clipping pattern and make sure RGB are not clipping. If they are, try turning contrast down further to see if you can make them not clip. If so, then that is the top point.

3. Now that you know the top end, go to the contrast pattern and turn contrast up and down (below the clipping point) and see if the gradient (ramp) in the middle of the pattern gets better or worse. Find the spot with the nicest ramp where you can get contrast as close to your clipping point as possible.

If your display, player, or path is clipping everything above 235 on the constrast / dynamic range high pattern, then start with the clipping pattern. If only white is clipping, make sure not to clip RGB.
post #52 of 162
Ignore the black bars on the top of the contrast pattern. They are simply a reference to what happens to black. Don't worry about them at all.

Quote:


Many modern flat panel displays can have contrast set to 100% without clipping in which case you might find contrast more usable to aid light output and/or gamma.

Have any examples? I have the 3D VT20, from Panasonic, and Contrast is set to 42 to avoid clipping.
post #53 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Ignore the black bars on the top of the contrast pattern. They are simply a reference to what happens to black. Don't worry about them at all.



Have any examples? I have the 3D VT20, from Panasonic, and Contrast is set to 42 to avoid clipping.

Stacey,

My Toshiba 42inch LCD clips appreciably if I send YCbCr to it even if I go to as low as 10 on the 0 to 100 scale of contrast on the TV (even reducing my Oppo's contrast needs about -75% of Oppo control to prevent clipping).

Outputting RGB to TV allows me to set contrast to 100 without clipping and I adjust 'Y' using backlight.
Should I change my method?. All the colors plus white are OK on your 'Clipping' pattern.
post #54 of 162
If your method works stick with it.

What does "adjust 'Y' using backlight" mean?
post #55 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

If your method works stick with it.

What does "adjust 'Y' using backlight" mean?

To get my correct 100 IRE Luminence output (I aim for about 42 Ft Ls).
post #56 of 162
Thanks guys. I guess there is no simple explanation. I still don't understand why setting contrast has to be so complicated. Would the "THX" contrast test pattern work for me and my DLP projector?
post #57 of 162
Quote:
Would the "THX" contrast test pattern work for me and my DLP projector?

No.

What part are you having trouble with?
post #58 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevechristian View Post

Hello, I'm new to calibrating and recently purchased a Spears & Munsil calib ration blu-ray and have a question about the order at which you should performe the tests. On the blu-ray, you have pluge low, pluge high, contrast, dymanic range low, dynamic range high, etc... Here's my questions...If I go and set the contrast per the contrast setting defined on the Spears & Munsil disc, I get a different contrast setting than what is required to satisfy he dynamic range high tests. So, I'm a bit confused as to whether I should take the readings from the contrast test or the dynamic range high test. Any info would be appreciated!

I have the Sharp LC-46LE821 Quattron HDTV.

Over a period of time, I began to notice that the most significant performance gains were through calibration of Clipping.

And the only way to do that was to use CMS.
Sharp's CMS, on this Quattron, as anyone will tell you, is non-linear. One stepped value negative or positive has the effect of a completely - most times - seemingly random occurrence of what you would expect. It cannot be reliably predicted.

The Clipping aspect undisguised Sharp's CMS very effectively and it allowed me to produce reference Green clipping, near reference Red clipping and above average Blue clipping. White clipping cannot be resolved, but I know why (and is not really essential).

The resulting clipping calibration resolved the Green delta E 94 errors completely and allowed for incredibly detailed and accurate tonal ranges in RGB far outside any calibration that has so far been posted for this panel. Because of Red and Green accuracy, the Quattron Yellow pixel was affected as well (although by how much is unknown), increasing Yellow's tonal accuracy to at least the level of the Red channel.

I cannot recommened Spears & Munsil's Blu-ray calibration disc enough.

In PC mode with this calibration, Sharp's 46LE821 is truly astounding in colour accuracy, colour tonal detail and just eye-popping realism.

Don't believe me?
See this thread p49: calibration

The most incredible thing I just watched 15 minutes ago was "Stephen Fry's In America". It is heavily reliant on complete control of Red, Blue and Yellow. Green is reference perfect on the Quattron panel and it shows.
Before this Clipping calibration, it just didn't work at all.

If there is a LCD/LED panel that can beat that experience, I would really like to know.
post #59 of 162
Quote:


harp's CMS, on this Quattron, as anyone will tell you, is non-linear. One stepped value negative or positive has the effect of a completely - most times - seemingly random occurrence of what you would expect. It cannot be reliably predicted.

Reminds me of grayscale tracking on the Panasonic VT20. Setting brightness and contrast on the VT20 comes and goes and took me a while to set it where I want it.
post #60 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Reminds me of grayscale tracking on the Panasonic VT20. Setting brightness and contrast on the VT20 comes and goes and took me a while to set it where I want it.

Oh no, no no. You've reminded me of what happened the day I bought the Sharp LE821 for £1,399.

I saw the Panasonic VT25 near it; it was running this demo of a canoe riding the waves in the Grand Canyon, flanked by the impossible stone towering high above it and the shadowy relief affecting the scintilating foaming water. Words cannot describe (it had obviously been calibrated because it looked 3D, even though it was just 2D; no glasses).

My maximum budget was £1,500 and the VT25 was £1,999, and the retail shop would not budge even £100.
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