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Full range speakers versus bookshelf when a quality sub is involved. - Page 2

post #31 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsax View Post

I've pretty much convinced myself that while the geometry and physics should make this true, in practice it does not seem to follow. I recently auditioned 2 bookshelves with all else equal the units with 5.5 inch woofers KILLED the units with 7 inch woofers. THere is clearly more going on they just dimensions.

just my $0.02

Because the geometry and physics does not make this true. There are many 5.5" woofers that have higher power handling and/or more xmax than 7" woofers.
post #32 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Here's what might be a dumb question, but how bad would it be to put a quality set of bookshelf speakers on top of subs (say sitting on an Auralex or other isolation platform on top of the sub)?

Only asking as I have Paradigm S2's which I was considering wall mounting as I don't have space for stands if I want to move my sub up front and eventually go with dual subs up front. Wall mounting may not work as these speakers are too deep, so I'm wondering about sitting them on the actual sub? E.g., I would either add a second PB13 sub or go with dual quality "heavy" sealed subs that hopefully don't vibrate much if at all.

Might be a dumb question as I never thought of putting htem on the actual sub until I realized the wall mount option doesn't seem to work!

You mean like this?:



This is fsrenduro's system. The subs are DIY boxes with Rythmik 15's. The speakers are Atlantic Technology 8200e's. He has since placed some dampening material between the speakers and subs.

Craig
post #33 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Ron I have small speakers that have an f3 of 47Hz. I have multiple subs. I have tried the following crossovers: 60hz, 70hz, 80hz, 100hz, 120hz, 150hz and 200hz. 100hz or 120hz (could not tell the difference) was far and away much better than 60hz, 70hz or 80hz. With a single sub you probably can't do this but if you have two subs you should test this. I don't care if you have towers or not. The subs can produce bass much better, so why would you not use them for what they are designed for. Adding multiple subs and raising the crossover point was far and away the biggest improvement of any that I have done to my system.

I agree. I have the above pictured speakers also. The have dual 8" woofers in sealed cabinets with an F3 of 60 Hz. I cross them at 100 Hz because the system sounds and measures better that way. I have dual Submersives placed up front between the speakers, so localization is not an issue.

Craig
post #34 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsax View Post

I've pretty much convinced myself that while the geometry and physics should make this true, in practice it does not seem to follow. I recently auditioned 2 bookshelves with all else equal the units with 5.5 inch woofers KILLED the units with 7 inch woofers. THere is clearly more going on they just dimensions.

just my $0.02

I was just stating in general. There are ALWAYS exceptions. Just curious, which models were they?
post #35 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

This is fsrenduro's system.

And let me just say that it is excellent.
post #36 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I agree. I have the above pictured speakers also. The have dual 8" woofers in sealed cabinets with an F3 of 60 Hz. I cross them at 100 Hz because the system sounds and measures better that way. I have dual Submersives placed up front between the speakers, so localization is not an issue.

Craig

Nice set up. Great subs. I can't imagine anybody that tried this (multiple subs & high crossover) would ever go back to using 60, 70 or 80hz. This is assuming that your mains do not have large drivers that can match your subs.
post #37 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You mean like this?:


This is fsrenduro's system. The subs are DIY boxes with Rythmik 15's. The speakers are Atlantic Technology 8200e's. He has since placed some dampening material between the speakers and subs.

Craig

Yes, exactly what I mean. No vibration issues with the speakers on the subs I take it? I'd be looking at likely adding 2 ULS-15's or other capable woofers (as my PB13 would be too large to use two upfront). Wonder when SVS will release their sealed woofs. Offtopic!
post #38 of 91
I am upgrading my system. In the end i would like 5.2 or 7.2 system. I am 60/40 movies, music.
Room is quite big: 30 x 22 x 9 - it has carpet.

My system so far:

Parsound Halo A51 5ch THX Amp
Specs: http://www.parasound.com/halo/a51.php

Krell KAV-300i 2ch integrated amp (150wpc into 8 ohms)
(circa 1998)

Integra DHC 80.3 Pre-Pro
Specs: http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DHC-80.3&class=Preamplifier&p=s
It can do Audyssey MultEQ XT32 room correction and has outputs for TWO subs.

Two JL Audio Fathom f113 subs.

I don't really have any nice speakers right now. Budget for all 5 speakers is maybe $20K.

So my next purchase was going to be front left and right speakers. I already have the two nice subs above.

I love the KEF Reference 205/2 which is a full tower but not quite full range. It has two 8" woofers:

KEF Ref Model 205/2
Design Bass reflex three-way floorstanding loudspeaker, magnetically shielded
Drive Units 2 x 200mm (8in.) LF, 1 x 165mm (6.5in.) Uni-Q MF including a 25mm (1in.) titanium HF
Crossover Frequencies 400Hz, 2.3kHz

Sensitivity (2.83V/1m) 90dB
Frequency Response (+/-3dB) 45Hz - 60kHz
Maximum Output 115dB
Amplifier Requirements 50 - 300W

But I also like the small bookshelf, the KEF Reference 201/2. It has one 6.5" woofer:

KEF Ref Model 201/2
Design Bass reflex three-way bookshelf loudspeaker, magnetically shielded
Drive Units 1 x 165mm (6.5in.) LF, 1 x 165mm (6.5in.), Uni-Q MF including a 25mm (1in.) titanium HF
Crossover Frequencies 450Hz, 2.5kHz

Sensitivity (2.83V/1m) 86dB
Frequency Response (+/-3dB) 55Hz - 60kHz
Maximum Output 110dB

I am confused about whether or not full towers like above 205/2 are worth it when you have good subs like my two f113s.

If i set crossover at around 70 or 80 Hz, that means the speakers have to cover 80 to 400 Hz (model 205/2) or 80 to 450 Hz (model 201/2).
Isn't it better to have the two 8" drivers than the single 6.5" driver in terms of filling the room in this freq range?
Would the towers sound better in my big room.

Would 80 Hz be the correct crossover with these two speakers?

OR - you won't really be able to hear the difference in SPL when you are using good subs like my two f113s and bookshelves would be just as good?

Should i spend money on towers or is it money wasted? Should i put money difference towards something else?

thanks
Edited by bao01 - 8/23/13 at 11:03am
post #39 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

I am upgrading my system. In the end i would like 5.1 or 7.1 system. I am 60/40 movies, music.
Room is quite big: 30 x 22 x 9 - it has carpet.

My system so far:

Parsound Halo A51 5ch THX Amp
Specs: http://www.parasound.com/halo/a51.php

Krell KAV-300i 2ch integrated amp (150wpc into 8 ohms)
(circa 1998)

Integra DHC 80.3 Pre-Pro
Specs: http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DHC-80.3&class=Preamplifier&p=s
It can do Audyssey MultEQ XT32 room correction and has outputs for TWO subs.

Two JL Audio Fathom f113 subs.

I don't really have any nice speakers right now. Budget for all 5 speakers is maybe $20K.

So my next purchase was going to be front left and right speakers. I already have the two nice subs above.

I love the KEF Reference 205/2 which is a full tower but not quite full range. It has two 8" woofers:

KEF Ref Model 205/2
Design Bass reflex three-way floorstanding loudspeaker, magnetically shielded
Drive Units 2 x 200mm (8in.) LF, 1 x 165mm (6.5in.) Uni-Q MF including a 25mm (1in.) titanium HF
Crossover Frequencies 400Hz, 2.3kHz

Sensitivity (2.83V/1m) 90dB
Frequency Response (+/-3dB) 45Hz - 60kHz
Maximum Output 115dB
Amplifier Requirements 50 - 300W

But I also like the small bookshelf, the KEF Reference 201/2. It has one 6.5" woofer:

KEF Ref Model 201/2
Design Bass reflex three-way bookshelf loudspeaker, magnetically shielded
Drive Units 1 x 165mm (6.5in.) LF, 1 x 165mm (6.5in.), Uni-Q MF including a 25mm (1in.) titanium HF
Crossover Frequencies 450Hz, 2.5kHz

Sensitivity (2.83V/1m) 86dB
Frequency Response (+/-3dB) 55Hz - 60kHz
Maximum Output 110dB

I am confused about whether or not full towers like above 205/2 are worth it when you have good subs like my two f113s.

If i set crossover at around 70 or 80 Hz, that means the speakers have to cover 80 to 400 Hz (model 205/2) or 80 to 450 Hz (model 201/2).
Isn't it better to have the two 8" drivers than the single 6.5" driver in terms of filling the room in this freq range?
Would the towers sound better in my big room.

Would 80 Hz be the correct crossover with these two speakers?

OR - you won't really be able to hear the difference in SPL when you are using good subs like my two f113s and bookshelves would be just as good?

Should i spend money on towers or is it money wasted? Should i put money difference towards something else?

thanks

With the two subs, you are not going to use the low end ability of the towers, unless you turn off the subs and run the towers full range. I would look at speakers like the Triad Gold LCR. Something that is designed to be used with subs. That way you are not giving up sensitivity to get low end that you will not be using.
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post #40 of 91
The subwoofer range goes from infrasonics up to about 80 - 100 Hz. The woofer range goes from 80 - 100 Hz up to 300 - 400 Hz. Having better "woofers" will definitely help in the woofer range. However, asking those same woofers to work down into the subwoofer range can/will limit their total output, increase compression and distortion, cause some "doppler effects" with higher frequencies they reproduce and decrease woofer sensitivity.

This is where "LCR"-type speakers come into play. They are neither "full range" floorstanders, nor satellite/bookshelf type speakers. They are designed to have strong output down to 60 - 80 Hz, and then be crossed over to subwoofers below that. This a more efficient design and utilization of drivers. All THX certified speakers use this design. Here are some examples of LCR speakers:

http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/irglcr.html



Or, more in the price range of the KEF floorstanders you linked:

http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/irplcr.html



If you don't want to do LCR's, then floorstanders, with larger drivers and cabinets, crossed over to subwoofers in the 60 - 80 Hz range, will likely be better than bookshelf speakers in the "woofer" range. Just realize you'll be paying for extension into the subwoofer range that you won't necessarily be using.

Craig
Edited by craig john - 8/23/13 at 11:17am
post #41 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

With the two subs, you are not going to use the low end ability of the towers, unless you turn off the subs and run the towers full range. I would look at speakers like the Triad Gold LCR. Something that is designed to be used with subs. That way you are not giving up sensitivity to get low end that you will not be using.

I already stated that the subs will do 80 Hz and below. I am not contesting that point. My question was referring to the 80 Hz to 400 Hz freq range. The subs wont be doing this range, the speakers will. Isn't two 8" woofers better than one 6.5" for filling room?
post #42 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The subwoofer range goes from infrasonics up to about 80 - 100 Hz. The woofer range goes from 80 - 100 Hz up to 300 - 400 Hz. Having better "woofers" will definitely help in the woofer range. However, asking those same woofers to work down into the subwoofer range can/will limit their total output, increase compression and distortion, cause some "doppler effects" with higher frequencies they reproduce and decrease woofer sensitivity.

But i'm not asking them to go into subwoofer range. I'm asking them to do 80 to 400 Hz. Doesn't that mean they will be very happy - they will produce clean sound?
post #43 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

But i'm not asking them to go into subwoofer range. I'm asking them to do 80 to 400 Hz. Doesn't that mean they will be very happy - they will produce clean sound?
When a speaker is designed to have 20 - 40 Hz extension, something else has to be compromised up higher in the range. This what I meant when I said "...can/will limit their total output, increase compression and distortion, cause some "doppler effects" with higher frequencies they reproduce and decrease woofer sensitivity.

LCR's will have higher sensitivity and higher output capability BECAUSE they are not designed to have maximum extension. They're designed to be used with subs... which provide the maximum extension.
post #44 of 91
ok - i get it now. You mean that speakers that are designed from the beginning to have limited freq range can be more efficient than those that attempt to cover a wider range.
I will look into Triad.

thanks
post #45 of 91
This thread is very timely. I think my second question below has been answered above. How about my follow-up question:

FOLLOWUP QUESTION

As a follow-up question, does this same argument apply to center channel speakers? Continuing with KEF R series, they have two models: R600C and R200C. I assume if you cross over at 80Hz, then the low end would be ingorned on both speakers. As center channel speakers are always used with a sub, why would anyone purchase the larger size speaker? Speaker manufacturers are typically pairing the smaller center with bookshelf and smaller towers and larger center with larger towers. Why would this be the case except for them to make more money and perhaps to have similar sized speakers in a room for aesthetic purposes?


R600C SPECIFICATIONS:
• Design: Three-way bass reflex
• Drive Units Uni-Q driver array:
• HF: 25mm (1in.) vented aluminium dome
• MF: 125mm (5in.) aluminium
• Bass units: LF: 2 x 165mm (6.5in.) aluminium
• Frequency range (-6dB): 50Hz - 45kHz
• Frequency response (±3dB): 60Hz - 28kHz
• Crossover frequency: 500Hz, 2.9kHz
• Amplifier requirements: 25 - 200 W
• Sensitivity (2.83V/1m): 89dB
• Harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m): <0.4% 100Hz-20kHz
• Maximum output: 113dB
• Nominal impedance: 8Ω (min. 3.2Ω)
• Weight: 17.2kg (37.9lbs.)
• Dimension (H x W x D): 7.9 x 24.8 x 13.2 in.

R200C SPECIFICATIONS:
• Design: Three-way bass reflex
• Drive Units: Uni-Q driver array:
• HF: 25mm (1in.) vented aluminium dome
• MF: 125mm (5in.) aluminium
• Bass units: LF: 2 x 130mm (5.25in.) aluminium
• Frequency range (-6dB:) 52Hz - 45kHz
• Frequency response (±3dB): 65Hz - 28kHz
• Crossover frequency: 500Hz, 2.8kHz
• Amplifier requirements: 25 - 150 W
• Sensitivity (2.83V/1m): 87dB
• Harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m): <0.4% 120Hz-20kHz
• Maximum output: 111dB
• Nominal impedance: 8Ω (min. 3.2Ω )
• Weight: 14.4kg (31.7lbs.)
• Dimension (H x W x D) (with grille and terminal): 6.7 x 20.9 x 12 in.


ORIGINAL QUESTION - I BELIEVE THE ANSWER IS YES


There is continuing debate about this on this forum. I have seen some discussion in specific product threads, but I wanted to bring this question to a larger audience.

The speakers I am discussing are for illustration purposes.

If you compare the KEF R300 bookshelf plus sub (KEF R400b) to the R500 Tower plus sub and cross over at 80Hz will there be a noticeable difference in sound and sound quality between the bookshelf and tower?

The argument goes something like this:

The bookshelf and tower have the same tweeter and midrange. They have different bass units, but if you are crossing over at 80hz, then low end will be transferred to sub and the result is that sound should be similar between both bookshelf and tower.

I think there would be some difference in sound due to the size and construction of the cabinets, but is this the only difference that would result from this comparison? Has anyone actually done a similar test? How did it go?

Also in doing this test would it matter whether listening to music or movies?

R300 SPECIFICATIONS:
• Design: Three-way bass reflex
• Drive units: Uni-Q driver array:
• HF: 25mm (1in.) vented aluminium dome
• MF: 125mm (5in.) aluminium
• Bass units: LF: 165mm (6.5in.) aluminium
• Frequency range (-6dB): 42Hz - 45kHz
• Frequency response (±3dB): 50Hz - 28kHz
• Crossover frequency: 500Hz, 2.8kHz
• Amplifier requirements: 25 - 120 W
• Sensitivity (2.83V/1m): 88dB
• Harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m): <0.4% 130Hz-20kHz
• Maximum output: 110dB
• Nominal impedance: 8Ω (min. 3.2Ω)
• Weight: 12kg (26.4lbs.)
• Dimension (H x W x D) (with grille and terminal): 15.2 x 8.3 x 13.6 in.

R500 SPECIFICATIONS:
• Design Three-way bass reflex
• Drive units Uni-Q driver array:
• HF: 25mm (1in.) vented aluminum dome
• MF: 125mm (5in.) aluminum
• Bass units: LF: 2 x 130mm (5.25in.) aluminum
• Frequency range (-6dB): 39Hz - 45kHz
• Frequency response (±3dB): 46Hz - 28kHz
• Crossover frequency: 500Hz, 2.8kHz
• Amplifier requirements: 25 - 150 W
• Sensitivity (2.83V/1m): 88dB
• Harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m): <0.4% 120Hz-20kHz
• Maximum output: 111dB
• Nominal impedance: 8Ω (min. 3.2Ω)
• Weight: 21.8kg (48lbs.)
• Dimension (H x W x D) (with grille and terminal): 40 x 7.1 x 12 in.
• Dimension (H x W x D) (with grille, terminal & plinth): 42 x 11.8 x 12.9 in.

R400B SPECIFICATIONS:
• Design: Powered Subwoofer (Sealed)
• LF: 2 x 225mm (9in.)
• Frequency range (-6dB): 26Hz - 140Hz
• Maximum output: 111dB
• Amplifier: 2 x 250W (500W) built-in Class-D
• Low pass filter Variable: 40Hz - 140Hz, 4th-order
• Low level signal inputs: RCA phono sockets
• Internal volume: 22 litres
• Power requirements: 100V - 120V / 220V - 240V~ 50 / 60Hz
• Power consumption: 600VA
• Weight: 21.5kg (47.4lbs.)
• Dimension (H x W x D) (with terminal & plinth): 14.4 x 13 x 13.8 in.
post #46 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by deeda View Post

This thread is very timely. I think my second question below has been answered above. How about my follow-up question:

FOLLOWUP QUESTION

As a follow-up question, does this same argument apply to center channel speakers? Continuing with KEF R series, they have two models: R600C and R200C. I assume if you cross over at 80Hz, then the low end would be ingorned on both speakers. As center channel speakers are always used with a sub, why would anyone purchase the larger size speaker? Speaker manufacturers are typically pairing the smaller center with bookshelf and smaller towers and larger center with larger towers. Why would this be the case except for them to make more money and perhaps to have similar sized speakers in a room for aesthetic purposes?


R600C SPECIFICATIONS:
• Design: Three-way bass reflex
• Drive Units Uni-Q driver array:
• HF: 25mm (1in.) vented aluminium dome
• MF: 125mm (5in.) aluminium
• Bass units: LF: 2 x 165mm (6.5in.) aluminium
• Frequency range (-6dB): 50Hz - 45kHz
• Frequency response (±3dB): 60Hz - 28kHz
• Crossover frequency: 500Hz, 2.9kHz
• Amplifier requirements: 25 - 200 W
• Sensitivity (2.83V/1m): 89dB
• Harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m): <0.4% 100Hz-20kHz
• Maximum output: 113dB
• Nominal impedance: 8Ω (min. 3.2Ω)
• Weight: 17.2kg (37.9lbs.)
• Dimension (H x W x D): 7.9 x 24.8 x 13.2 in.

R200C SPECIFICATIONS:
• Design: Three-way bass reflex
• Drive Units: Uni-Q driver array:
• HF: 25mm (1in.) vented aluminium dome
• MF: 125mm (5in.) aluminium
• Bass units: LF: 2 x 130mm (5.25in.) aluminium
• Frequency range (-6dB:) 52Hz - 45kHz
• Frequency response (±3dB): 65Hz - 28kHz
• Crossover frequency: 500Hz, 2.8kHz
• Amplifier requirements: 25 - 150 W
• Sensitivity (2.83V/1m): 87dB
• Harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m): <0.4% 120Hz-20kHz
• Maximum output: 111dB
• Nominal impedance: 8Ω (min. 3.2Ω )
• Weight: 14.4kg (31.7lbs.)
• Dimension (H x W x D) (with grille and terminal): 6.7 x 20.9 x 12 in.


ORIGINAL QUESTION - I BELIEVE THE ANSWER IS YES


There is continuing debate about this on this forum. I have seen some discussion in specific product threads, but I wanted to bring this question to a larger audience.

The speakers I am discussing are for illustration purposes.

If you compare the KEF R300 bookshelf plus sub (KEF R400b) to the R500 Tower plus sub and cross over at 80Hz will there be a noticeable difference in sound and sound quality between the bookshelf and tower?

The argument goes something like this:

The bookshelf and tower have the same tweeter and midrange. They have different bass units, but if you are crossing over at 80hz, then low end will be transferred to sub and the result is that sound should be similar between both bookshelf and tower.

I think there would be some difference in sound due to the size and construction of the cabinets, but is this the only difference that would result from this comparison? Has anyone actually done a similar test? How did it go?

Also in doing this test would it matter whether listening to music or movies?

R300 SPECIFICATIONS:
• Design: Three-way bass reflex
• Drive units: Uni-Q driver array:
• HF: 25mm (1in.) vented aluminium dome
• MF: 125mm (5in.) aluminium
• Bass units: LF: 165mm (6.5in.) aluminium
• Frequency range (-6dB): 42Hz - 45kHz
• Frequency response (±3dB): 50Hz - 28kHz
• Crossover frequency: 500Hz, 2.8kHz
• Amplifier requirements: 25 - 120 W
• Sensitivity (2.83V/1m): 88dB
• Harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m): <0.4% 130Hz-20kHz
• Maximum output: 110dB
• Nominal impedance: 8Ω (min. 3.2Ω)
• Weight: 12kg (26.4lbs.)
• Dimension (H x W x D) (with grille and terminal): 15.2 x 8.3 x 13.6 in.

R500 SPECIFICATIONS:
• Design Three-way bass reflex
• Drive units Uni-Q driver array:
• HF: 25mm (1in.) vented aluminum dome
• MF: 125mm (5in.) aluminum
• Bass units: LF: 2 x 130mm (5.25in.) aluminum
• Frequency range (-6dB): 39Hz - 45kHz
• Frequency response (±3dB): 46Hz - 28kHz
• Crossover frequency: 500Hz, 2.8kHz
• Amplifier requirements: 25 - 150 W
• Sensitivity (2.83V/1m): 88dB
• Harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m): <0.4% 120Hz-20kHz
• Maximum output: 111dB
• Nominal impedance: 8Ω (min. 3.2Ω)
• Weight: 21.8kg (48lbs.)
• Dimension (H x W x D) (with grille and terminal): 40 x 7.1 x 12 in.
• Dimension (H x W x D) (with grille, terminal & plinth): 42 x 11.8 x 12.9 in.

R400B SPECIFICATIONS:
• Design: Powered Subwoofer (Sealed)
• LF: 2 x 225mm (9in.)
• Frequency range (-6dB): 26Hz - 140Hz
• Maximum output: 111dB
• Amplifier: 2 x 250W (500W) built-in Class-D
• Low pass filter Variable: 40Hz - 140Hz, 4th-order
• Low level signal inputs: RCA phono sockets
• Internal volume: 22 litres
• Power requirements: 100V - 120V / 220V - 240V~ 50 / 60Hz
• Power consumption: 600VA
• Weight: 21.5kg (47.4lbs.)
• Dimension (H x W x D) (with terminal & plinth): 14.4 x 13 x 13.8 in.



ANY THOUGHTS
post #47 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by deeda View Post

The argument goes something like this:

The bookshelf and tower have the same tweeter and midrange. They have different bass units, but if you are crossing over at 80hz, then low end will be transferred to sub and the result is that sound should be similar between both bookshelf and tower.

I think there would be some difference in sound due to the size and construction of the cabinets, but is this the only difference that would result from this comparison? Has anyone actually done a similar test? How did it go?

Sure a larger full range speaker would have an advantage... if say you wanted to push things to loud volumes in a larger room and you were a greater distance from the speakers. Those larger drivers operating the 80 to 250... 300... 800hz range are going to be able to put out higher dB levels with less distortion.

But take my circumstances for instance. I am in a smallish room with the speakers 2 metres away from me. Taking 80hz off my 2-way bookshelfs allows me to push them to ear splitting levels before distortion sets in again. (without the 80hz being taken off them, distortion set in quite a bit earlier) Large full range speakers would be kind of wasted in my situation on the dB level distortion side of things.

And it makes an interesting experiment by turning the power off to the subs and continuing to listen to your speakers with their 60... 80... 100hz high pass crossover still in effect. By 90 or 100hz they are already starting to sound very tinny like they are only a very small 3" satellite speakers. It is also interesting how much driver travel is reduced by taking 60 or 80hz off them. You can clearly see the effect when adjusting crossover while they are playing. By 80hz they are only moving a fraction of what they were with full range signal and control and clarity through the midrange is noticeably improved.

What I am trying to get at is that even just getting 80hz off a 2-way gives a significant improvement.

So if I can get enough clean volume from my 2-ways and subs... I now also get to gain improved sound quality from using the smaller speakers over large towers for the reason I can buy a higher model line bookshelf for my given budget. e.g I recently brought myself some Monitor Audio GX50's. They are Monitor Audio's second to top line and incorporate a ribbon tweeter. For the same money in a tower I would have had to drop to one of the lower model lines and suffered a reduction top end quality. To get a tower with the same treble quality it would cost a considerable amount more and pushed me out of budget.

And there is also the advantage of *not* having a crossover through the 250... 300... 800hz range as that is where the human vocals are the most prominent. Some people prefer not to have a crossover in that range and in fact other people prefer to have no crossovers at all and use a single full range driver. There is certainly something to be said for fewer crossovers as possible.
post #48 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by deeda View Post

I think there would be some difference in sound due to the size and construction of the cabinets
A tower is larger than a bookshelf because it has to be to go to lower frequencies. Cabinet size is directly related to the wavelengths produced. The lower the frequency the longer the wavelength, ergo the lower the speaker plays to the larger it must be.
Quote:
And there is also the advantage of *not* having a crossover through the 250... 300... 800hz range as that is where the human vocals are the most prominent.
250, 300 is fine. Where problems arise is when the crossover is between 500 and 800Hz, so that should be avoided, and it's not about the range of the human voice, but because that's where our ears are most sensitive to time align issues. You can get correct time align in that region, but it's a lot easier to just crossover elsewhere.
Your comment on driver quality is spot on. For the same price a speaker that only goes down to 70Hz or so can have much better drivers than one that goes to 40Hz or lower. It may have a better crossover as well. Even though it may lack the power handling and output capacity of a tower that's only run above 80Hz it still will probably sound better, as long as it's driven within its comfort zone.
post #49 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

A tower is larger than a bookshelf because it has to be to go to lower frequencies. Cabinet size is directly related to the wavelengths produced. The lower the frequency the longer the wavelength, ergo the lower the speaker plays to the larger it must be.

I missed the point that the KEF R300 is a 3-way and he was asking more about cabinet size. Sure a larger cabinet can produce lower frequency, but isn't that just in relation to the port tuning? If both cabinets were sealed, would it not just come down to driver size?
post #50 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Sure a larger cabinet can produce lower frequency, but isn't that just in relation to the port tuning?
You can tune virtually any size cabinet to virtually any frequency. If it's actually going to go low and also go loud it also must be large. Google: Hoffman's Iron Law.
Quote:
If both cabinets were sealed, would it not just come down to driver size?
Driver size in and of itself has nothing to do with how low the speaker will play. But if you make a sealed cab larger it will go lower, with no changes in the driver.
post #51 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

But if you make a sealed cab larger it will go lower, with no changes in the driver.

I see. But would that just be a matter of going lower as opposed to being able to put out higher distortion free dB levels in say the 200hz rang?
post #52 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I missed the point that the KEF R300 is a 3-way and he was asking more about cabinet size. Sure a larger cabinet can produce lower frequency, but isn't that just in relation to the port tuning? If both cabinets were sealed, would it not just come down to driver size?

Appreciate the comments. My question is really getting to the point you observe which is that if you are going to use a sub and crossover at 80hz, for example, then the woofers in the towered will not be used. As such, it would be a better allocation of money to spend on bookshelf speakers with higher grade materials (I.e diamond or ribbon tweeters like in your Monitor Audio speakers).

I am also curious about your thoughts on center channel speaker. If tweeter and midrange are the same in two speakers but one speaker has a larger woofer, does it matter if you are crossing at 80 hz?
post #53 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by deeda View Post

Appreciate the comments. My question is really getting to the point you observe which is that if you are going to use a sub and crossover at 80hz, for example, then the woofers in the towered will not be used. As such, it would be a better allocation of money to spend on bookshelf speakers with higher grade materials (I.e diamond or ribbon tweeters like in your Monitor Audio speakers).

I am also curious about your thoughts on center channel speaker. If tweeter and midrange are the same in two speakers but one speaker has a larger woofer, does it matter if you are crossing at 80 hz?

It depends on the size of the room and desired volume levels as to whether or not the larger towers will be utilized. It's not cut and dry and there are a few variables to consider when deciding what is required to reach a certain performance goal.
post #54 of 91
I used to think like that but no longer

1) if you get bigger towers for the bass, you are wasting your money. get a good sub it will produce BOTH quality (the correct ones) and quantity far more than your tower can make.
2) if your tower is rated to something something, there are fine prints - it may be rated 40Hz -3dB or some even -6dB! that means at somewhere between 60-80Hz you are starting to lose the bass.
3) your tower bass might be of both lower quality and quantity - quality as in it could be boomy for example.
4) size of the speaker has got nothing to do with quality of the sound it produces!!! gosh! get that bit right first biggrin.gif if you buy a better bookshelf you could get better quality sound than an inferior tower!
post #55 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I see. But would that just be a matter of going lower as opposed to being able to put out higher distortion free dB levels in say the 200hz rang?
I don't think I totally understand the question. Higher distortion free (though there's really no such thing, acceptable distortion is the better description) levels are primarily achieved via a higher displacement driver, to a point, that point being where displacement limited power exceeds the driver thermal rating.
post #56 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post



They are Monitor Audio's second to top line and incorporate a ribbon tweeter. For the same money in a tower I would have had to drop to one of the lower model lines and suffered a reduction top end quality. To get a tower with the same treble quality it would cost a considerable amount more and pushed me out of budget.

.

What other speakers were you looking at? I am on a similar quest. I have looked at B&W 805D and KEF 201/2. Some other brands I have been thing of are Monitor Audio, Paradigm, Revel and Focal.

I don't have a specific budget in mind, but I would like to keep under $5000 if I can.

I was listening to KEF 201/2s and was pretty impressed with KEF R series. R500. The R series sounded pretty good and the price point was so much lower the Reference line that I began to think about R series.

What made you go with GX 50 vs GX 100 or even PL 100. Budget?
post #57 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by deeda View Post

I am also curious about your thoughts on center channel speaker. If tweeter and midrange are the same in two speakers but one speaker has a larger woofer, does it matter if you are crossing at 80 hz?

Like PlexMulti says... a larger room where you may be setting a longer distance from the speakers and you want to achieve high volume, the larger woofer would be an advantage.
post #58 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I don't think I totally understand the question. Higher distortion free (though there's really no such thing, acceptable distortion is the better description) levels are primarily achieved via a higher displacement driver, to a point, that point being where displacement limited power exceeds the driver thermal rating.

I mean, having a larger cabinet may help a speaker to achieve lower bass frequencies... but would that mean it could achieve higher sound pressure levels like having a larger woofer dedicated to the 80 to 300hz range does?

i.e if I took my 5.5" 2-way and built a bigger cabinet for it and achieved a lower frequency output... it doesn't mean I am going to be able to achieve higher sound pressure levels with it before the same level of distortion when it was in its smaller cabinet?
post #59 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by deeda View Post

What other speakers were you looking at?

PSB Imagine B and Synchrony Two, Dynaudio DM2/6 and Excite X16 and Focus 160, Sonus Faber's new Venere 1.5... are speakers I also own or have had a good listen to. I like the GX50's better over all these others.

The only speaker that I have heard and I prefer over the GX50's is Newform Research R630's. (which I also own)


Quote:
What made you go with GX 50 vs GX 100 or even PL 100. Budget?

Yes cost. The GX50's were the top of my budget.
post #60 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Like PlexMulti says... a larger room where you may be setting a longer distance from the speakers and you want to achieve high volume, the larger woofer would be an advantage.

I guess what I am missing is what the woofer is doing if crossed at say 80hz. Is there still some sound coming from woofer. If so, I understand larger woofer results in more sound. However, if most of the LFE are going to the sub, then what is point of larger woofer.

Sorry that my degree in accounting is not helping me to understand the science behind this.
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