Official 3D Projector Thread. - Page 4

1.3 HDMI will carry 1080p 60, so absolutely it will carry 1080p 48. In fact that is the way I am currently transmitting 1080p 24 Blu Ray to my projector. It goes into my video processor at 1080p 24 and the video processor outputs it at 1080p 48. For whatever reason, my video processor won`t output 1080p 24, but that is no big deal.

I was alluding to replacing my projector simply in order to accommodate 3D.

Will I replace my PJ within 5-10 years? Probably, IF the improvement is substantially better than what I have now, which it isn't (much higher lumens, much sharper picture, LED lit, etc..., otherwise what is the point?) and I do not have to mortgage my house to do it. But I refuse to be led around by the nose and manipulated into blowing out perfectly outstanding A/V gear and becoming their free 3D beta tester by the latest A/V 3D FAD to come along.

One more thing; if anyone here thinks they are going to even begin to have/reproduce the same 3D visual experience viewing AVATAR in your existing home theater that you had at the multi million dollar IMAX 3D theater in the near future or in the future without spending thousands, upon thousands of dollars, upgrading their equipment, there is a bridge in Brookline I can sell you real cheap.

As I said in my initial post: someone feel free to call me in 10 to 15 years when GLASSLESS 3D is fully developed and fully comes into it's own and those nasty "bugs" have been worked out and it is available at a reasonable price. Until then, have fun all you "early adopter, beta testing, Guinea Pigs". But before you take the 3d plunge, I would advise you to remember the lessons of the HD/Bluray format war when many of you lost small and large fortunes after the powers that be decided that HD was worthless and they pulled their entire support for the format in behalf of Bluray, after they had sold you all that stuff, leaving all of you suckers (in their eyes) holding the bag.

I can envision 3 to 8 years from now, the same thing taking place regarding 3D; many AVS members sitting around, like they did with their HD equipment and software, with utter dismay on their faces and anger, realizing they have been pawned once again looking at all of their formerly new and improved, latest 3D technology equipment, and glasses that have suddenly been declared outdated and relegated to the dust bin by the electronics corporations who are ready to sell you on their latest fad.

They will have draws upon draws FULL of different kinds of 3D glasses: polarized, shutter, red, green, etc because there will not be just one way the electronics powers that be will decide upon for you to watch 3D Why? All the better to sell you stuff my dear. There will be low end 3D glasses for the masses and then there will be high end, scam videophile 3D glasses that will cost you a fortune (Oh, joy, think MONSTER CABLES only for 3D glasses!). Most of this stuff purchased with your hard-earned money will end up in land fills or being blown out on Craigslist for pennies on the dollar because they will say: "Those things are useless and no longer needed because this is the new and improoved way we are going to do 3D from now on."

As for me, and others here on AVS who have seen this script/scam/game before; no thanks, we will sit this 3D FAD out (like many of us wisely did during the HD/Bluray format mess.) and when the war is all over (contrary to popular opinion here on AVS, there will be a 3D war because their are billions of dollars at stake.) and things finally shake out, then and only then will we bite the bullet and upgrade our A/V equipment to accommodate 3D.

Uh, given that 3D home protocols were just finalized, yeah, be definition we're in the early-early-adoptor stage... or more accurately, the pre-adoptor stage since no 3D projectors are actually for sale yet. Duh?

And you're missing the point about stacking 2 projectors... that's being discussed because it's a way that you could take *** ANY *** two 2D like projector models and turn your system into a 3D system.

There will be actual 3D front projection devices that use HDMI 1.4 and are designed as single-box 3D solutions. Like the LG we saw at CES which got rave reviews and is around $10K which is hardly a shocking price for a forum like this. Let's see what we get from CEDIA. By which time we'll have moved from the early-early/pre adoptor stage to the early-adoptor stage.

Sweet. Does that 1080p48 signal pass through any type of HDMI 1.3 devices in between like a receiver etc.?

Then wait it out. Just like with EVERY improvement that's come your way, you've only bought what you wanted to buy. Did you post rants like this when 1080p projectors went for sale and offered increased resolution that your 720p display didn't deliver? Or did you just feel good about knowing that by the time you eventually upgraded to 1080p, the prices and performance would easily outpace what you spent and got with your 720 device? Why get so upset now that videophiles will have another optional element to enjoy on future displays?


That wasn't an ultra-high-res 70mm or 4K IMAX movie... that was 2K. And so yes, it won't be hard to get a brighter, blacker, crisper image at home with a smaller screen and a 2K projector of your choosing.


I'm starting to wonder if most of those on this forum ranting about 3D were HD DVD supporters. There seems to be a lack of embracing the notion of progress... the same lack of embracing progress that assumed that the higher bitrates and storage of BD weren't meaningful benefits for the videophile community.


Sorry you got burned on HD DVD. I spent more on my laserdiscs than most ever spent on HD DVD collections but I'm not bitter, I'm just happy that today we have something better, and that tomorrow we'll have something better still.

Having said that, I do feel that there needs to be ineroperability between active LCD shutter glasses, but the fact that there are TWO types of goggle-technology... passive and active, is not a "format war" and depends on the type of 3D display that a consumer wants to buy. And there should be that choice because there are pros and cons to each approach. Just like there are pros and cons to Plamsa, LCD, LCOS/SXRD, DLP, laser, LED, UHP or Xenon choices. Would you like to have one 2D "display standard" that decides as a consumer what type of display you can and can't choose to buy? A rule that all 2D HDTVs must be LCD for instance, or that the only type of projector you can buy should be LCOS? Or that the only type of screen material should be 1.3 gain? Probably not, and folks should have that same choice between active and passive 3D technology.


This false notion of a format "war" with 3D continues to baffle me. Get some thereapy... lots of HD DVD projection going on. 3D isn't a "war"... the specs are finalized and agreed upon, and 3D blu-ray discs are 100% backwards compatible with 2D players. In fact, since all 3D displays will also be 2D displays, 3D is really nothing more than an added feature. Of course, this has all been covered over and over.

David. The 1080p output of my video processor runs straight to the 1080p projector. For video, tv yada, it runs at 1080p 60. I would think any unit that will pass 1080p 60 would pass 1080p 48. Its 1080p 120 or 144 that would be a problem but I can`t see sat or casble transmitting that anyway. There present limit is 720p 60 and 1080i 60. Now supposedly DTV has pay per view at 1080p 24 but I have no experience with that since I use FIOS now.

I keep reading that people are against upgrading again, but then you go to the rest of the forum and it's only about upgrading. When an affordable 3d PJ comes around I will upgrade to it and either give my old one as a gift to a family member or sell it to a friend for cheap. Just my 2cents

First off, you are wrong on a number of counts; I have waited, I didn't jump on the 720p pj band wagon. I was NOT burned in the HD DVD/Bluray format war, ...I have NEVER owned HD DVD, but lots of AVS members and others have thrown away millions of dollars on the equipment you mentioned and I genuinely feel for them. I waited for all of the 720p, 1080p, HD/Bluray blood letting to take place and after they FINALLY settled on ONE format 1080p and Bluray, and AFTER they worked out the bulk of the "bugs", then and only then did I jump in.

You said "there is no 3D format war" but then in the very next paragraph you stated:

I do feel that there needs to be ineroperability between active LCD shutter glasses, but the fact that there are TWO types of goggle-technology... passive and active, is not a "format war" and depends on the type of 3D display that a consumer wants to buy. And there should be that choice because there are pros and cons to each approach.

Sorry, but two completely different types of "goggle-technology" which are totally incompatible sounds like a war to me, leaving consumers confused and concerned about purchasing the "right 3D equipment". Sounds like a great opportunity for lots of fraudulent 3D sales claims and scams for suckers.

And then, 3 -8 years from now, the electronics equipment powers that be will say... "You know all of that 3D equipment you bought...? Sorry, it is all obsolete, we have come up with a 'better, new and improved way' to do 3D that is incompatible and inoperable with your existing 3D equipment."

Would I like to have one industry-wide high-quality 3D display standard that works and works exceptionally well the first time? You bet your life I would. I, along with many others here on AVS would like for these manufacturing Bozo's to all get together for once, figure out which way of doing 3D and doing it right (ala Avatar quality or better) works the very best and then, after doing the research AHEAD OF TIME to get it to work right BEFORE it is released to the public and going forward with that standard.

Instead of this rational approach, they will go their separate ways leaving "early adopters" and others to be their unpaid beta testing Guinea Pigs who will, when all is said and done, end up throwing millions of dollars down the toilet.

The sad thing about life is that one can`t upgrade many things. Electronics however can easily and relatively cheaply be upgraded. Nothing one buys in the HT market should ever be viewed as a long term investment. The technology is rapidly changing and prices keep falling. Yesterday I purchased a new GPS with a 7 inch color touch screen for $250. Last year it would have been $700. My wife appropriated my 2.7 inch or whatever GPS. Too small for my vision now and I can`t upgrade my eyes. The new GPS does a lot more things than the old especially showing lanes etc. I spent what $8000 a few years ago for a 1080p 64 inch plasma. I will buy a 3D 73 inch new set for $3500. Bigger. Maybe the blacks won`t be as good but they aren`t that great on my 8 year old or so plasma. Point is if you think its something you want, worth the money, and you can afford it, buy it. But don`t be angry that new technology keeps coming along. Take cell phones for example. One really needs to upgrade every two years. The cost is really cheap but they get you on extending your plan for two years. Bitch. Bitch.

David. Have you seen Avatar yet?

And Guys. Remember we are really all friends here. This is an informational thread where we share our meager knowledge and learn from each other. Its nice. I am learning alot and hope I can share the little I know. Thanks to all who post here.

Jmouse. I guess we disagree. There is a source and transmission standard and it in many ways is backwardcompatible. There is no display standard and there doesn`t have to be. Just like projecctors. They basically all work with current sources. SXRD, 1 chip DLP, 3 chip DLP. LED. Xenon, UHP. One has choices. But it all works with HD TV and Bluray. Will there be a new source and transmission 3D standard in a few years. My guess is yes. But it will be backwards compatible. The industry and the FCC will see to that. Hell we went digital and there are cheap set top subsidized boxes for all those old analog CRTs. And the black market supplies HDMI input cards for old CRT FPs. The electronic world is OK. Sure there was a format war for HD DVD and Bluray. But there won`t be for 3D.

The thing I love about AVS is we can agree to disagree agreeably As for there not being a 3D format war, I hope you are right.

Mark and I are basically saying the same thing.

The "format" is in the spec for the signal and delivery of that signal.

The display technology is an open platform for innovation.

Yes, there are multiple ways to come up with eyewear to filter discrete left and right images. And there should be. What if we put in place a rule for one type of eyewear only, but then next year a much better and cheaper way to deliver discrete left/right images becomes available... we'd be stuck with a first-generation solution and not able to move forward.

Also, some folks may choose to take an approach for a given reason. You want to stack two front projectors and use a silver screen? Go with polarized lenses and you can have 10 guests all watch in 3D because the goggles are cheap... just take the glasses home with you after watching 3D in the cinema and you won't even have to pay.

You'd rather avoid all cross talk and go with active LCD shutter with a future single-chassis 3D projector or large-screen flatpanel? Great... but now those glasses will cost more and make it difficult to host your 10-person movie party for a 3D event.

The type of eyewear and/or 3D solution a consumer chooses to buy in the display isn't the "format"... that's the type of 3D display that the consumer chooses to buy. Do choices have downsides too? They sure do, and there might be some consumer confusion as with any consumer choice. Just like you can choose between a profile 1.0 or 2.0 blu-ray player... or a 720 or 1080 HDTV, or a LCD or Plasma flatscreen... etc... choices that are confusing for the average consumer, but choices that are still good to have, and haven't spelled the end of the mass market accepting HDTV.

I think that the one issue that *would* be a problem is if one brand of active LCD shutter glasses would only work with a given brand of television. IMO, active-shutter-wear should be designed to work accross multiple brands so that folks could keep the more expensive glasses when they change 3D TVs or go to their friends' house for a 3D superbowl event. Except for issues where some glasses might have higher refresh rates that cheaper models can't duplicate, it shouldn't be a problem. In any case, that's the only place where I see the purchase of glasses being a problem. They won't be a problem with polarized versus active shutter because a viewer moving to active shutter wouldn't have spent any real money on his polarized eyewear, and a viewer moving from active to passive wouldn't have to spend any real money to do so either.

I basically agreewith David. It must be remembered that polarized or shutter is not interchangeable. Polarized glasses must be used if the projector or projectors use plolarizer filters. And a silver screen must be used. Further if the projector(s) use linear polarizers, the glasses must be linear, if the projector(s) use circular polarizers, circular polarizer glasses must be used. I know David knows this, but I wanted to make it perfectly clear. Shutter glasses are appropriate for non filter systems only. Projectors that flash quickly the left and right eye images with the shutter glasses synced to when a the full frame is displayed. Then no special screen is required. The other system involves narrow band color filters on the projector, the same type of filter glasses and a color correction box. Called the Infitec or Dolby 3D system. I have said all this before. For FP theater, I doubt many who have a theater now would want to switch to or put up a second screen. Silver screens will be a step backwards for 2D presentations. So I think the system that will get mass acceptance is the same one that the flat panels will employ. Shutter glasses. The Dolby 3D won`t make it because of the need for color correction boxes or putting dual CMS systems in single projector systems. Now shutter glasses go for about $50 each. Even if you had to buy ten for that magnificent 10 seat HT, the cost would be about the cost of a new bulb. Hardly a big barrier for a person who can afford that theater in the first place.

I know one thing.. I have never had much interest in 3d, but I am going to try to buy one and screen it tonight. Just the old fashond 3D, green / red glasses.

Please be aware that this method of so-called "3D" is an abomination plain and simple... that's not the high-quality 3D that we're discussing coming to hometheater in 2010, which basically takes the 1920 x 1080 we enjoy now in 2D and puts it in stereoscopic form. The red/blue method of pushing "3D" out into existing video channels is the reason that most people who (think that they) hate "3D" feel so negatively towards it.

Do yourself a favor and go see AVATAR if you want a taste of the real thing!

Here is my 2 cents worth. RealD has a patent application on a screen material claimed to work for both 3D polarized projection as well as for standard 2D projection (HERE it is). Perhaps we will see some home theater screen manufacturers license it or come out with their own alternative if polarized 3D projection really catches on.

As for concerns raised above with not be able to use any pair of 3D glasses with every 3D projector or display, just get over it. 3D Glasses must be considered an accessory for the given manufacturer/display device. I would suspect that many of the LCD shutter glasses may in fact work with different manufacturer's products we should not count on it. This is just as I wouldn't assume the remote control included with my Panasonic plasma HDTV will correctly work with my Sony LCD or the PS3 game controller will work with a Xbox.

That patent is a long read. really hard to guage how it would perform on 2D. I wonder if some screen company is pursuing it.

What's up with the "duh"? Are we back in third grade? Like I said, no offense, but your suggestion of stacking 2 projectors would be ridiculous in my set-up. Yeah, it's "possible", but that doesn't mean it's something I would want to do nor would I think that's a "solution" that many people would want to take up on, including probably yourself.

Again, like I said, I'll wait until there is a high lumens, single lens PJ within my price-range before I take the plunge. Not sure what so controversial about my stance.

Wow, sounds like you have a real issue with anyone that doesn't share your "enthusiasm" for 3D. Jmouse007 can do whatever he wants, it's his money, and if he feels like sitting out 3D for the time-being and not being an "early adopter", then so be it. Are you his mom? Are you buying his system for him? Are you providing some sort of intimate "service" to him where HE needs to accommodate YOUR view?

You accused him earlier on of needing "therapy", I think you're the one that most likely needs it.

In terms of being "early adopters" (and no, there is no such thing as being a "pre-adopter" ), that's a personal choice and if it's right for you, go for it! I went for a D-VHS system when it came out and so you could say I was an "early adopter" for consumer 1080i recordable media, but I certainly knew what I was going in for and knew full well that it wasn't going to be anywhere near adopted on a mass-scale and that I was investing in a soon-to-be-obsolete technology. I made the same choice with HD-DVD which came out before Blu-ray, and I bought a BD player when that came out as well. Having done so, I also understand it was a personal choice and I wouldn't throw a hissy fit all because someone on an Internet forum didn't share my personal enthusiasm for HD.

If there is a purpose for this thread, it's for people to LEARN about 3D projectors, which you yourself has termed in the "pre-adopter" stage (I guess we'd also be "pre-adopters" for things like "time travel" and "teleportation" ). No need for snide comments for those with a healthy dose of cynicism, which is probably closer to the attitude of the mainstream consumer at this stage, certainly more so than the traditional enthusiasm found on AVS for new technologies.

That's a good point. I think the issue of 3D glasses compatibility largely becomes a mute point when you look at it from the point of view of it being a "component" or "accessory" (if you will) of your 3D display.

I'll probably start my 3D home experience with something like the 72" Vizio 3D LED LCD T.V. In a couple of years 3D projectors will have reached a very good quality at a price I'll be willing to pay - I hope. There should be more and more 3D movies and perhaps some of them will actually be movies I'll like. I consider myself a visitor to this planet and at any moment my visa may get pulled so I'm going to make the most of my stay.

I think a flatscreen is probably the easiest and perhaps smartest way to go in the early stages of home 3D. This way you don't have to deal with things like possibly stacking 2 projectors and the associated calibration issues, silver screens, brightness issues, sync problems, etc., etc. If the prices start coming down early, no doubt I'll replace one of my current flatscreens with a 3D model. Having said that though, I think the PJ experience is what 3D was meant for, and probably the best overall way to experience 3D in the home. I'm looking forward to having a 3D PJ set-up in my home, it just all depends on what the manufacturers can offer and at what price-point.

Deja Vu Why are you such a moron? (a joke guys, a joke). There is no way in hell you will start by using a 72 inch 3D Vizio. It is a 73 inch D not a 72. Come on Man. Get with it. By the way, that is probably the way I will start also and I definitely don`t want to start when I get one by posting that mine is bigger than yours by a full inch.

http://vizioces.com/

Remember Mark, don't give an inch!

[quote=Jmouse007;17980732]I was alluding to replacing my projector simply in order to accommodate 3D.

One more thing; if anyone here thinks they are going to even begin to have/reproduce the same 3D visual experience viewing AVATAR in your existing home theater that you had at the multi million dollar IMAX 3D theater in the near future or in the future without spending thousands, upon thousands of dollars, “upgrading” their equipment, there is a bridge in Brookline I can sell you real cheap.

As I said in my initial post: someone feel free to call me in 10 to 15 years when GLASSLESS 3D is fully developed and fully comes into it's own and those nasty "bugs" have been worked out and it is available at a reasonable price.

I can envision 3 to 8 years from now, the same thing taking place regarding 3D; many AVS members sitting around, like they did with their HD equipment and software, with utter dismay on their faces and anger, realizing they have been ”pawned once again” looking at all of their formerly “new and improved”, “latest 3D technology” equipment, and glasses that have suddenly been declared outdated and relegated to the dust bin by the electronics corporations who are ready to sell you on their latest fad. /QUOTE]

Just one person's opinion (Evan at Projectorcentral), but he's actually seen the demos! I think 3D will be shoved down our throats a lot sooner than some would like! Resistance is futile! We'll just be spending thousands upgrading to 3D rather than spending thousands upgrading our 2D systems. Same ol' shi!, just a different format.

"The 3D demos showed that consumer products will be able to deliver high quality 3D experiences in the home that match or perhaps even exceed the visual experience of commercial theaters."

http://projectorcentral.com/projecto...S&entry_id=305

[quote=Deja Vu;17986375]
Anything that relies on the latest technology will alway see improvements over time that will make existing owners want to upgrade. For example, I was satiisfied with my 8088 based PC back in 1984 but was ready to replace it 3 years lated with a 80286 based PC then in two more years with a 80386 based PC then etc., etc., etc. In those early years of PCs each replacement cost about $3K which would be around $6K in today's dollars. If you can actually get 6 to 8 years out of a 1st generation 3D display system (or any other technology product) before you get the strong urge to scrap it for the latest and greatest, then you should consider yourself very lucky. As for glassless 3D I've heard talk about that for virtually all of my life (I was born in 1948) and there still isn't any viable technology for general use. So I certainly wouldn't bet on any viable glassless 3D consumer products in the next decade or two. I do believe we will see improvements in 3D technology using glasses over the next few years. The general consensus from reviews of the 3D displays shown at CES was the LCD 3D flat panels ranged for mediocre to poor with both Sony and Samung generally considered rather poor (I haven't found any comparision of the Vizio to the Sony or Samsung LCDs as to the 3D performance). This seems to be related to the LCD latency that has improved in recent years so that it's no longer a significant issue with 2D but still causes problems when the display is required to alternative between different image streams as required to display 3D. Perhaps DLP based front and rear projectors will turn out to offer the most cost effective 3D experience for consumers in the coming year or two, but other than Mits existing rear projection TVs, 3D 1080p home theater oriented DLPs were not shown at CES.

Not really surprising to me at all when the "visual experience" I get at home watching a movie in 1080P on Blu-ray is better than perhaps 90% of my experiences at the local cinema. If it wasn't for the nostalgia of sticky floors, stale popcorn, smelly feet an inch from my face, B.O. and Raisinettes, I might never step in a cinema again!

The Imax 3D theater in Columbia MD was nothing like that. A very nice clean facility. Lots of room and nice chairs. But you are right of course. They would not let me drink a buurbon and smoke a cohiba while I watched Avatar and they really get pissed off if a nice couple gets carried away in a moment of passion ans strips down to fornicate. Fornicating in the theater is strictly prohibited.