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The Cinemar Home Theater Construction Thread - Page 45

post #1321 of 2773
2/12/12 at 11:30am
build a test door and see if you like it....best way to judge that kind of thing. i personally think rails and stiles need to be symmetrical.

regarding ripping the wood down, you can do it, but you will need to run it through a jointer afterwards....but i usually just use my router table and offset one side of the fence by 1/16 and use a large straight bit.

be careful 1x3 looks too wide at first then when you add profiles to both sides (if that is the plan) it can start to look thin quickly!

I love making cabinets fwiw....so do what you want with the sizes, there is no correct way...but i would test the mix and match first to make sure it is visually appealing. (actually, when making raised panels, it should be a ratio of about 5:1 for time spent testing/setting up versus time spent actually running through the router!)
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post #1322 of 2773
2/12/12 at 2:17pm
Since they are black I would say it will be hard to notice any size difference. If not the same size I would say it looks better to have the "Heavy" (Thicker) look on the rails, but his is just my opinion of course. I have built several cabinets with the rail as the larger size and it looks very good, especially on a taller cabinet.
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post #1323 of 2773
2/12/12 at 4:51pm
Hey Mario - everything is looking really good. I think it would be best to keep the rails and stiles the same size, but I am not following you when you say you are adding hinges. Is this so these doors can swing open like normal cabinet doors? If so, I have a suggestion that may solve both your issues....you could use the 1x3 stiles for the cabinets and use four roller latches to secure each cabinet door to the framing. With some tinkering of your cabinet door sizes, you could have the left and right sides of these door frames either touching one another or leave whatever reveal you like in between.
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post #1324 of 2773
2/12/12 at 5:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Hey Mario - everything is looking really good. I think it would be best to keep the rails and stiles the same size, but I am not following you when you say you are adding hinges. Is this so these doors can swing open like normal cabinet doors? If so, I have a suggestion that may solve both your issues....you could use the 1x3 stiles for the cabinets and use four roller latches to secure each cabinet door to the framing. With some tinkering of your cabinet door sizes, you could have the left and right sides of these door frames either touching one another or leave whatever reveal you like in between.

Hmm... Not sure I follow you on this one. Can you elaborate?

Is a roller latch the same as a roller catch?

I figured I'd put hinges on all the doors since I'm doing it for sure for the middle. I could probably cheat on at least four or five of the doors and just use four finish nails per cabinet and secure to some hidden framing. I thought it might be nice to have some access to the back of the sub from another one of the doors besides the middle. That would prevent me from pulling the sub out if it's centered in the middle of the cabinet.
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post #1325 of 2773
2/12/12 at 9:33pm
I vote for Option B. Option A looks a bit too chunky between the panels. I assume you are going for the panelled wall look, as opposed to the "row of small doors look". If that is the case then the equal rail and stile approach for doors doesn't really apply.
A pretty small change though. I didn't read the text at first and had to flip back and forth between the two options a few times to find the difference.
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post #1326 of 2773
2/13/12 at 6:53am
Damn I really need to buy a router

Nice work
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post #1327 of 2773
2/13/12 at 6:55am
Oh and if anyone is interested Kreg Jig systems has a $15 rebate

http://slickdeals.net/f/3939630-Kreg...p-17-56-w-FSSS

Doesn't seem like this product goes on sale very often so might be worth it if you were looking to pick it up.
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post #1328 of 2773
2/13/12 at 8:05am
Thread Starter 
Here's some progress from yesterday.

I attached the 1x2 maple to the front of the bottom of the cabinet arch. Unfortunately my camera battery died so I didn't get a shot of how I did it. But I basically stacked the top and bottom layers together. I had already marked where I had clamped and screwed the top of the cabinet piece. I made those same markings on the lower mdf arch. This was to ensure that my arch matched as closely as possible between the two pieces. As you bend the board, you can see where the arch isn't always perfect. By stacking the two layers, I was able to make sure that the 1x2 lined up. So when I add the middle supports from top to bottom, they should be spot on.

Here's a shot of the lower section of the cabinet. BTW, I've learned to mark my factory edges with blue painters tape. It's a good thing to do so you know it's a perfectly straight piece. I've been doing this pretty religously especially when you plan to rip multiple pieces...it's good to always work off the factory straight edge.


I had routed the edges that would be visible with a 1/8" round over bit before attaching:


Snapshot of the how I connected the 1x2 along with glue.


I wanted to see how it looked so I just rested it up there on some stools. It's sitting several inches higher than the finished product. I'm playing with the vertical dimensions. I was planning to cut the middle section of the top shelf into 3 pieces so I could remove the center to get the sub in / out. I'm rethinking that and may just make the opening another 1/2" taller instead.




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post #1329 of 2773
2/13/12 at 8:11am
Thread Starter 
So I've come up with an Option C that seems like it should work and look very close to option b. I'll just need to order different hinges to make it work.

I'll continue to use the 1x2 inbetween the cabinets, but instead rotate them so only the 3/4" side is facing the front. I'll just need to notch each side to get around the 1x2 lips I added to the top / bottom of the cabinet. I played around with the depth of my miter saw and it's actually easier than expected once I got the hang of it and found the center of the saw blade.





Here are the renders of Option C. The edges look sharp, but I'll be adding a 1/8" rounder over edge along the outsides:




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post #1330 of 2773
2/13/12 at 8:13am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry M View Post

Damn I really need to buy a router

Nice work

Thanks Larry. My old cheap Black and Decker seems to be keeping up. But I've heard good things about the Bosch handheld router.
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post #1331 of 2773
2/13/12 at 8:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by longtimelurker View Post

build a test door and see if you like it....best way to judge that kind of thing. i personally think rails and stiles need to be symmetrical.

regarding ripping the wood down, you can do it, but you will need to run it through a jointer afterwards....but i usually just use my router table and offset one side of the fence by 1/16 and use a large straight bit.

be careful 1x3 looks too wide at first then when you add profiles to both sides (if that is the plan) it can start to look thin quickly!

I love making cabinets fwiw....so do what you want with the sizes, there is no correct way...but i would test the mix and match first to make sure it is visually appealing. (actually, when making raised panels, it should be a ratio of about 5:1 for time spent testing/setting up versus time spent actually running through the router!)

I tried ripping just a small piece of maple down to 2". Maybe I have the wrong blade...but the blade just seems to bend as it starts going through the wood.

I wouldn't mind knowing how to solve this, but I think I'll try to work with the 2.5" rail and stiles just to save time and energy.
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post #1332 of 2773
2/13/12 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

Guys. Looking for some input on the front wall cabinet doors.

Is it critical that the cabinet door rails and stiles be the same size?

Most of the furniture doors I make have rails that are different widths than the stiles. Here's an example:



For this cabinet, I made the bottom stiles wider to help balance the horizontal band of spalted maple panels at the top of the doors. Here's a closer shot of the bottom of the doors:



In general, I think playing with the widths of the rails vs. stiles adds visual interest to a piece. It takes a bit longer because you have different machine setups for the different widths, so you don't see it much in production cabinets. IMO, that's one of the reasons to do it. It's one of the little things that together say, "This is a custom piece."

Quote:


But I just haven't ever been able to get perfectly straight rips with my borrowed table saw. Not sure if it's the saw, the blade, material or just me.

The most common causes for this are a dull blade and/or a fence that is not parallel to the blade.
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post #1333 of 2773
2/13/12 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

I tried ripping just a small piece of maple down to 2". Maybe I have the wrong blade...but the blade just seems to bend as it starts going through the wood.

I wouldn't mind knowing how to solve this, but I think I'll try to work with the 2.5" rail and stiles just to save time and energy.

Maybe try two passes. Cut half way through on the first.
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post #1334 of 2773
2/13/12 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

Hmm... Not sure I follow you on this one. Can you elaborate?

Is a roller latch the same as a roller catch?

I figured I'd put hinges on all the doors since I'm doing it for sure for the middle. I could probably cheat on at least four or five of the doors and just use four finish nails per cabinet and secure to some hidden framing. I thought it might be nice to have some access to the back of the sub from another one of the doors besides the middle. That would prevent me from pulling the sub out if it's centered in the middle of the cabinet.

Sorry it wasn't clear...typing on my iPad really curtails my desire to type anything!! Yes, I was talking about the roller catch/latches. But my feedback may have been misplaced once I looked at your renderings with fresh eyes. It looks as though you are using the small vertical pieces to attach your hinges and provide spacing between each doors.

My proposal was to still use the vertical pieces, but have it so the doors themselves would only be an 1/8" apart. This still makes for a smooth front, but without all the additional detail of insetting the doors within a frame.

Essentially your renderings propose to "nest" the doors and use hinges and probably some sort of magnetic catch/stop. I was proposing doing a "full overlay" with the cabinet doors and using four roller catches, two per side. This way the doors can literally be pulled off and/or reinstalled in seconds, allowing for full access. Your vertical pieces would still be needed to hold the other part of the roller latches, but they would be recessed the depth of the door (and stick on cabinet pads) for a flush finish.

Hopefully this is clear, but like I said - You are probably going for the nested look which is more akin to fine cabinetry building since it is so much more difficult to do and the level of precision involved is far greater.
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post #1335 of 2773
2/13/12 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

I tried ripping just a small piece of maple down to 2". Maybe I have the wrong blade...but the blade just seems to bend as it starts going through the wood.

I wouldn't mind knowing how to solve this, but I think I'll try to work with the 2.5" rail and stiles just to save time and energy.

yeah, thats an issue....need more power, stiffer blade, make sure using a new carbide tipped blade, etc.

you should definitely be able to get a cut where the variations are less than a 1/16th, then you can use the straight router bit to "Jointer" it to perfection (if you havent done this skill yet on the router table, you need to learn it! critical to cabinet/panel making), or buy a jointer.

anyway, as someone above mentioned, you can run it through the table saw in a few passes if the blade, motor, etc are not up to the task in one pass. Generally you get blade instability if blade speed slows down (a slower blade has less momentum to keep it going in the same plane....a heaver, faster blade is MUCH harder to divert from the path). To do multiple passes you should really have a good tight fence system and use before and after featherboards. ---- are you using feather boards? they are critical to smooth cuts also.

no matter what though, for panel/cabinet work you will have to true the edge after the cut...no way around that, the human eye is just too damn good.
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post #1336 of 2773
2/13/12 at 7:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

Thanks Larry. My old cheap Black and Decker seems to be keeping up. But I've heard good things about the Bosch handheld router.

I've been eyeing the Bosch and HD had a clearance deal on one of the models however it wasn't a plunge base which I would like
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post #1337 of 2773
2/14/12 at 4:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightp View Post


Most of the furniture doors I make have rails that are different widths than the stiles. Here's an example:

For this cabinet, I made the bottom stiles wider to help balance the horizontal band of spalted maple panels at the top of the doors. Here's a closer shot of the bottom of the doors:

In general, I think playing with the widths of the rails vs. stiles adds visual interest to a piece. It takes a bit longer because you have different machine setups for the different widths, so you don't see it much in production cabinets. IMO, that's one of the reasons to do it. It's one of the little things that together say, "This is a custom piece."

The most common causes for this are a dull blade and/or a fence that is not parallel to the blade.

Thanks for sharing. You're in a whole 'nother league. That's some fine wood working.

That's what's nice about the renders. To my eye the different sized rails and stiles looked fine. I guess it comes down to personal opinion.
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post #1338 of 2773
2/14/12 at 5:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Maybe try two passes. Cut half way through on the first.

Didn't have much luck before when tried a second pass. I just don't think my table saw is up to the task.
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post #1339 of 2773
2/14/12 at 5:28pm
New blade???
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post #1340 of 2773
2/15/12 at 6:12am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktm250rider View Post

New blade???

Sorry guys. I still need to respond to a few posts. It was a newer carbide blade. I'll have to check, but I thought it had 42 teeth and designed for crosscuts as well. Maybe that's the problem?

It was the most expensive blade but I don't think it was the cheapest either.

Is there a particular blade that should be used for ripping hard wood?

Like it's been suggested here though. If the need arises, I could just get close to my mark with the table saw...then use the flush trim router bit to get it where I really need it.
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post #1341 of 2773
2/15/12 at 6:17am
FWIW, I have previously used the services of a professional furnituremaker to make rips in my stock material on their super-expensive table saw. All I did was provide a cut list and they ran it through for $30 for about a 1/2 hour of work on their part. Everything was done perfectly and I didn't have to invest in a very expensive saw blade. I know you are trying to do this all yourself, but if you don't foresee using the blade ever again for another project, the total investment becomes pretty steep. Just a thought.
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post #1342 of 2773
2/15/12 at 6:21am
Thread Starter 
I made some temporary supports to see how I liked the height of the front cabinet and double check measurements with the computers. Doing so I caught an issue with one of my front corner cabinets. So I had to re-align it and level. I'm just glad I caught it now.

My plan is to build the cabinet free standing so I can slide it in / out for now. Then once complete I'll attach it to the 4x4 posts. I still need to treat the corner cabinet sides with some material. So keeping it free standing allows me to do that once I'm closer to the end. I fear I'd end up damaging the material otherwise during construction.



I thought I'd show I notched the divider for the front cabinets. I needed to make a 1.5" x 3/4" deep cut on one end and a 3/4" x 3/4" notch on the other. I started by routing the face of the boards that reveal into the room. Then made my cut marks.







Then I adjusted the depth stop on my miter saw and did a few practice cuts. It was easy to get it to a 3/4" depth though just by sliding a 3/4" board and butting the saw blade to it.





Then I proceeded to make small cuts from the end of the board towards my finished cut mark. I had to cut to size a small block that would push my 3/4" divider out to the middle of the blade so my cuts were even on both sides. The blade is round.



The finished product.



I initially had the 1x2 dividers with the thicker side facing the room just because I thought notching it with a jig saw would be too much work and not that accurate. This method worked much better and faster and allowed me to get the design I initially was going for.
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post #1343 of 2773
2/15/12 at 8:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

Sorry guys. I still need to respond to a few posts. It was a newer carbide blade. I'll have to check, but I thought it had 42 teeth and designed for crosscuts as well. Maybe that's the problem?

It was the most expensive blade but I don't think it was the cheapest either.

Is there a particular blade that should be used for ripping hard wood?

Like it's been suggested here though. If the need arises, I could just get close to my mark with the table saw...then use the flush trim router bit to get it where I really need it.

For ripping, you'd be better off with less than a 42 tooth blade. Somewhere around 24 or 30 would be better, and if you have a low HP saw, get it in a thin kerf blade.

Assuming you have a 10" table saw that uses 10" blades. Trying to stay affordable in a 10" blade, something like a Freud Diablo D1024X or a Bosch CB1024, would be a good choice.
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post #1344 of 2773
2/15/12 at 12:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

For ripping, you'd be better off with less than a 42 tooth blade. Somewhere around 24 or 30 would be better, and if you have a low HP saw, get it in a thin kerf blade.

Assuming you have a 10" table saw that uses 10" blades. Trying to stay affordable in a 10" blade, something like a Freud Diablo D1024X or a Bosch CB1024, would be a good choice.

Thanks for the great info.
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post #1345 of 2773
2/15/12 at 12:24pm
Thread Starter 
Question for the pro's on the cabinet.

As you know, I'm using 1x2's in between the cabinet doors. I've noticed on the first board, there is a slight bend to it to the side. Can I clamp two boards on it before mounting and then screw it in to make sure it's straight? Or will the board return to it's normal bend after removing the clamps?

I'm only leaving 1/8" gap around the cabinets. So it doesn't take much to notice if something is off. I'm wondering if this is what a jointer would fix. It seems like you'd need to start with 1" material though and then you'd end up with a perfectly straight 3/4" piece?
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post #1346 of 2773
2/15/12 at 2:47pm
Any time your joining two boards you want a nice straight true edge. I would think a gap would form over time. I recently built a couple 8 foot tall cabinets that had two adjoining face fames. There was a gap between both frames. I used a hand plane and was able to get a straight edge and a tight fit wham the cabinets were assembled. A jointers on my list of wants, but I seem to get by with the hand tools.
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post #1347 of 2773
2/16/12 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

I tried ripping just a small piece of maple down to 2". Maybe I have the wrong blade...but the blade just seems to bend as it starts going through the wood.

I wouldn't mind knowing how to solve this, but I think I'll try to work with the 2.5" rail and stiles just to save time and energy.

Hi Mario,

Continues to look incredible! Great craftsmanship.

I don't know what your saw is, but I'm assuming you're talking about some type of table saw since you later mentioned a 10" blade. In addition to the blade deflecting, another possibility is the trunnion or support mechanism underneath the table moving, either due to mechanical slop or just due to an undersized structure. With the saw off and unplugged, you might poke around inside it a bit to see if you can recreate any movement of the arbor that shouldn't be there.

I see that you have a nice DeWalt miter saw, so if you went with something of similar quality for your table saw, then you can probably ignore this comment. But if you picked up a saw from Harbor Freight or something... (Don't get me wrong, I love HF and buy stuff all the time there.) I guess in a nutshell, there is a huge spectrum of table saws out there.

HTH,
Bryan
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post #1348 of 2773
2/16/12 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

For ripping, you'd be better off with less than a 42 tooth blade. Somewhere around 24 or 30 would be better, and if you have a low HP saw, get it in a thin kerf blade.

Assuming you have a 10" table saw that uses 10" blades. Trying to stay affordable in a 10" blade, something like a Freud Diablo D1024X or a Bosch CB1024, would be a good choice.

No argument that fewer teeth are better for ripping, but my experience is that the main improvement would be perhaps slightly faster cutting with less burning of the cut edges. 42 teeth is not that bad for ripping, and I would think it to be a good general purpose blade. (Something like 80 teeth, for example, would definitely be too many to function as a decent ripping blade.)

I suspect there is something else going on and that your blade is not the biggest contributing factor to this problem (see my other post).

Bryan
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post #1349 of 2773
2/16/12 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

Question for the pro's on the cabinet.

As you know, I'm using 1x2's in between the cabinet doors. I've noticed on the first board, there is a slight bend to it to the side. Can I clamp two boards on it before mounting and then screw it in to make sure it's straight? Or will the board return to it's normal bend after removing the clamps?

I'm only leaving 1/8" gap around the cabinets. So it doesn't take much to notice if something is off. I'm wondering if this is what a jointer would fix. It seems like you'd need to start with 1" material though and then you'd end up with a perfectly straight 3/4" piece?

I'm no pro, but here's my two cents: What's typically done is that you start with rough-cut wood (4/4) which can be nearly an inch thick as rough milled. A face joint is made on the jointer to flatten any warp or twist, and then it's milled to final thickness in a planer. After that you joint one edge so that's perfectly straight before milling it to the final width.

As someone mentioned, a hand plane can certainly be used, but you'll need one with a fairly long bed in order to remove the curved edge. I think it was also suggested to use your router along with a known straight edge, which should work fine.

Without those big tools, you can sort through the material before you buy it to find straight stuff. Or you can buy S4S material (surfaced 4 sides).

To address your question about what happens after it's forced straight and mounted, I guess it depends upon what it's attached to. If the 2nd piece is much stronger (i.e. a large piece of plywood or a larger piece of straight wood), then it should remain straight. Glue and screws should be strong enough to hold a 1x2 permanently straight. However, the weaker the piece you're attaching it to, the more they will tend to find a compromised position, i.e. halfway between where each piece wants to be...

Bryan
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post #1350 of 2773
2/17/12 at 2:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowger View Post

No argument that fewer teeth are better for ripping, but my experience is that the main improvement would be perhaps slightly faster cutting with less burning of the cut edges. 42 teeth is not that bad for ripping, and I would think it to be a good general purpose blade. (Something like 80 teeth, for example, would definitely be too many to function as a decent ripping blade.)

Well for except for a few things.

Combination/general purpose blades are just that, they try to do everything, from ripping, crosscuts, cutting plywood/MDF etc, which they will do. But they do not give the best possible cut in all cases. They really don't excel at anything other than being a universal use blade.

Brand of blade can make a big difference. There are a lot of good blades to be found, but there are even more sub par blades. And even some that are just pure junk.

If the saw is not a real powerhouse as far as the motor HP goes. The use of thin kerf blade or not, can make a huge difference.

Blade is not as sharp as it could be, or once was.

Or as you mentioned, the saw itself may borderline as far as tolerances in one area or another, or it may be getting worn out a bit.

Besides numerous 7 1/4" circular saws & routers, jigsaws, as well as 10" and a 7 1/4" sliding miter saws. A 6" planer and a 12" thickness planer. I also have both a 10" table saw and a 10" radial arm saw, both of those have 3HP motors, so I really don't have a bogging down problem with either of them. But a blade change, to match up with the type of cut and also the material I'm cutting, sure can make a huge difference in the actual end quality of the cut. A really good ripping blade, can make a glue ready cut. I probably have about 15-20 different 10" blades for them, and also 2 different Dado blades. Yeah changing blades to another type takes a bit of time, but it also usually pays off big time with much better cuts.

http://www.freudtools.com/images/SB-Sel-3000x2164.jpg

http://www.justsawblades.com/systimatic/terminology.htm
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