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The Cinemar Home Theater Construction Thread - Page 8

post #211 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Ok. It's been about 7 months since I've posted here. Needless to say, it's hard to work on a theater during the summer.

I came to the stark realization that my basement is filled with junk and starting any type of construction down there would be nearly impossible. So over the past few months I've been organizing things, throwing junk away, giving things to Goodwill and selling things on eBay. My basement/theater plans are a little more fleshed out now so I'm still moving slowly but surely.

I also needed to clean up 4 miles of cabling from the first floor in the future media/storage area. I logged an incredible late night hours doing that. The 5" round cabling going under the stairway is all extra's that I haven't tapped into yet. I wish I would have taken a picture before I cleaned up the rack. If you think it looks messy now...you should have seen it. Once I had that somewhat cleaned up, I ran sensors to all the lower level windows to detect if they are left open. Added sensors to the sliding patio doors. Also ran power cable to select windows for controlling window treatments.







I also put down some Rustoleum basement floor epoxy in the storage area.

I have an electrician coming over next week to do some work upstairs before I add the zoned basement heating ductwork.


I also realized that it's been almost a year since I bought the PTAE4000 projector. This is actually my second projector purchase since attempting to complete my theater.
I happened to be doing a little research on Receivers and noticed a good deal on an Onkyo TX-NR3008 that I picked up today. So there's my other motivation. It'll stink to take a hit on an outdated projector and a receiver.

I should have some more renderings soon as I finalize some things.
post #212 of 3008
Mario,

The renderings look fantastic. I'll definitely be following your progress. And since we're neighbors, give me a shout if you need help with anything. The generator is a great idea. I've been thinking about installing one also--not necessarily for the sump pump, mainly for the furnace. I'll probably PM you at some point in the future to get more details about cost, etc.

Jeff
post #213 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Hi Jeff.
Thanks for popping in. Yeah, you are a hop and a skip from me. I'd be happy to pass along info and contacts to you.
I'll sleep great at night when the theater is done knowing I have the generator. It's come in handy about five or six times already.

It's now officially a race to see who starts their theater first. :;
post #214 of 3008
Thread Starter 
So based on my limited knowledge, it appears the best place for me to place a 2nd subwoofer in my current plan is in the diagnol corner (rear left) from the front sub. I realize a more optimal position would be the middle front and middle back of the room...but the theater would be useless unless I can get in the room. AFAIK, it doesn't really matter vertically where the sub is position. If that holds true, I could position it behind the acoustic fabric in the corner just above the chair rail. Thoughts? Option 2 might be to place a Triad Mini Inwall Sub into my left rear surround column.



Does anyone know if having crown moulding actually helps with the acoustics as far as bass goes? It would seem it would since the corners would no longer be square.

Moggie - if you are still tuned in, I liked your idea of building traps into the soffit. I may be unable to do it on one side of the room...but from my understanding, bass traps do not necessarily need to be room symetrical.

Also, since I'm raising the front half of the room about 6", I'm wondering if I could design a bass trap out of that somehow. Ideas?
post #215 of 3008
Thread Starter 
I've now lowered the chair rail to allow for placement of 1" acoustic on the top half of the walls. I'm still trying to figure out what I'll do with the lower half. Another user mentioned to possibly turn them into bass traps. But I'm not 100% it will be effective if it's part of a bigger mass like the columns.

I'm considering a painted Night Sky Mural instead of Fiber Optic Lighting for the stars. It should be much cheaper, allow me to place more stars, I can do it later if I want and most importantly, it will save me a ton of time and labor.

I'm still tossing around the idea of slimming down or getting rid of two of the columns in the room. I have very little walkway between the last row of seats and the side walls/columns. The front stage is still a work in progress too.



post #216 of 3008
It's been said before, but I'll say it again. Those renderings are quite amazing.

As for your subwoofer question...(disclaimer, I'm not an expert, nor do I play one on tv) It is my understanding that you would want to have the subwoofers in the midwall front and back of the room. I've been told that this will help reduce seat-to-seat variations at low frequencies.

I reread your post and looked closer at your diagram. I see that your door is midwall rear. Duh! Is there anyway you can add two more subs to the other corners?
post #217 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post
So based on my limited knowledge, it appears the best place for me to place a 2nd subwoofer in my current plan is in the diagonal corner (rear left) from the front sub. I realize a more optimal position would be the middle front and middle back of the room...but the theater would be useless unless I can get in the room.
Have a look at this Harman paper. Welti discusses dual subs in opposite corners on pdf page 15, and it's not what you want. You can use those two corners if you also use the other 2 (see config 10 on pdf 19).

It would work just as good if you can place the two midwall subs on the side walls.
post #218 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Hi Jon_B and Roger,

Thanks. Yeah it appears midwall placement is ideal for Subs. I thought putting them in diagnol corners was the next bext thing according to Floyd E. Toole's Sound Reproduction book...but perhaps I misread it.

My M&K sub is pretty massive which makes it challenging to even fit it vertically underneath the screen in the middle of the room. (EDIT: Looks like I could squeeze it underneath the screen - I may see if I can move the door somehow) Midwall on the sides doesn't seem possible either - it lands right at my first step and would block access.

I guess I'm just trying to save some bucks on buying more subs if the difference is marginal. I just don't want to spend another $2k+ on subs.

If I could get some less expensive sub for the other front wall (left side) and then two inwall subs for the rear - i could mount the rear subs in the columns.
From a soundproofing perspective...I'm not sure how smart it is to put a Sub in the actual contstructed wall. Any thoughts on how much sound goes out the back side of the wall with these inwall subs?

Assuming I have four subs, can I get away with something less expensive like a Triad Bronze InWall sub? (Although I don't think they'll fit into my columns...but I can probably cheat them.
post #219 of 3008
Thread Starter 
So I think I can squeeze the sub into the front center stage below the screen. I could pick up a smaller sub and place it to the side of the doorway. This would put the rear sub at about 2'6" off center of the front sub. Or I could move the front sub to align with the rear and both would be off center of the room by 2'6". Any thoughts on this?
post #220 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

Hi Jon_B and Roger,

Thanks. Yeah it appears midwall placement is ideal for Subs. I thought putting them in diagnol corners was the next bext thing according to Floyd E. Toole's Sound Reproduction book...but perhaps I misread it.

My M&K sub is pretty massive which makes it challenging to even fit it vertically underneath the screen in the middle of the room. (EDIT: Looks like I could squeeze it underneath the screen - I may see if I can move the door somehow) Midwall on the sides doesn't seem possible either - it lands right at my first step and would block access.

I guess I'm just trying to save some bucks on buying more subs if the difference is marginal. I just don't want to spend another $2k+ on subs.

If I could get some less expensive sub for the other front wall (left side) and then two inwall subs for the rear - i could mount the rear subs in the columns.
From a soundproofing perspective...I'm not sure how smart it is to put a Sub in the actual contstructed wall. Any thoughts on how much sound goes out the back side of the wall with these inwall subs?

Assuming I have four subs, can I get away with something less expensive like a Triad Bronze InWall sub? (Although I don't think they'll fit into my columns...but I can probably cheat them.

If your columns are built inside your room, you can put your subs inside the columns and now worry about leakage cause they are basically in the room.

On getting two smaller subs, I'm no expert but I have seen and read several post on the Triad thread about using different size subs. I was recommended not matching two bronze subs with my platinum sub cause they would not be able to keep up with it, but also have seen smaller subs paired with bigger ones too...maybe an expert can jump in here for you.
post #221 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

I guess I'm just trying to save some bucks on buying more subs if the difference is marginal. I just don't want to spend another $2k+ on subs.

I read you.

Quote:


From a soundproofing perspective...I'm not sure how smart it is to put a Sub in the actual contstructed wall. Any thoughts on how much sound goes out the back side of the wall with these inwall subs?

Good question. I guess there's a lot of "it depends" in there. Ask Paul Scarpelli in the Triad owners thread, he ought to know. Another option is to hire PMI Ltd to do a specific analysis on the sub matters, as they use the Triads a lot.

Quote:


Assuming I have four subs, can I get away with something less expensive like a Triad Bronze InWall sub? (Although I don't think they'll fit into my columns...but I can probably cheat them.

Yes, with 4 subs they will share the load. You can even drive them from just two or even one power amplifier, no need to have 4 amps unless you want individual EQ.
post #222 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post
Moggie - if you are still tuned in, I liked your idea of building traps into the soffit. I may be unable to do it on one side of the room...but from my understanding, bass traps do not necessarily need to be room symetrical.

Also, since I'm raising the front half of the room about 6", I'm wondering if I could design a bass trap out of that somehow. Ideas?
It might be cheap insurance to hire one of the professionals on this forum for an acoustic design. AFIAK bass traps don't have to be symmetrical. I don't recall but I you planning to use the base under the riser as a trap? What about the columns?
post #223 of 3008
You will need different parametric EQ, phase, amplitude AND delay with each of multiple subs, which would be easier to do on the line level instead of the powered amp output (much higher losses and larger more expensive components if after the amp).
post #224 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Moggie,

I might have to take advantage of the AVS forum / Dennis Erskine service available. Just prepping for the build has turned more costly than expected so I'm trying to keep costs down. With that said, I can only imagine the number of surprise expenses I'll encounter when I start it.

GRBoomer,
AFAIK, the Onkyo 3008 I ordered should handle the two subs.

One concern is a lot of the results we read about are based on rectangle rooms. My fear is planning so much only to find out it really didn't matter because of the variety of items in the room or the non-perfect rectangle.

Regardless, I pushed forward with trying to manipulate the room to get a second sub close to the middle of the back of the room. I came pretty close so. About 10" off center which I doubt will make much difference. Another option is to build the sub into the counter behind the back row. I'm assuming that would be too close?



I ended up bumping out a little niche for the sub into the foyer to the theater. Which will force me to double stud wall, DD/GG the foyer as well. One thought is to put a rotating rack above the Sub just above the chair rail lines. The sub would be contained and not viewable from the foyer. I could then build a grill using trim that matches the room for the sound to travel out. I realize Subs are not as directional as speakers, so hopefully this is fine.



I have room in the theater for a rack already so I'm not sure I want to move it out of the theater. It would make it a little easier if it was in the theater for wiring. And really I'm not sure what else I would put there. I'm not sure how much noise would be generated by any of the components I plan on putting in there.

My other concern is if I place the components in the foyer, then I'd probably also have to consider a vent and return in there in addition to the theater. Just opens more cans of worms as far as sound proofing goes. Without the rack in there, I don't think I'd have to worry about it. I could instead use that space as a Bass trap or just put a counter top on it to dress up the foyer.

I also played around with other ideas of trying to squeeze the sub into the existing room. Here are some of those concepts. I just thought if I went this route, it would either force me to eliminate the back bar and seating. It starts to get pretty tight so I've been trying to leave that space open.


post #225 of 3008
Thread Starter 
This was a concept to redoing the front of the stage due to moving the sub to the middle of the room. The side boxes I planned for are no longer required, but I still think they look cool so I might just stick with them.

This version would certainly be less time consuming and costly to build though.
post #226 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiphayes View Post

Mario...

Before the writer's strike a couple of years ago put a hold on my home theater build, I had a similar idea for wainscoting my room much like yours, only in stained wood. At the time BPape had turned me on to Ethan Winer's article about using such paneling to hide a bass trap.

See this page in general: http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html and this drawing from that article in particular: http://www.ethanwiner.com/BTPlans.gif

Using the 1/4 plywood on the outside of each panel, as shown in the drawings, then applying molding around the edges of each one, would create the look I think you're after, and make the bottom half of your room a bass trap. Of course, once you hit ear level height, you'll still want to have some kind of acoustical treatment (above the chair rail.)

Hopefully, ]I'll be able to jump back into my own long-dormant build by this summer. But reading your thread reminded me of this article, and I thought I'd give you another option to get the paneling look you want.

Oh... and when the heck is DVDLobby 3.90 coming out? My MainLobby system feels incomplete.

Chip

Chip pointed me to this information. So I played around with the idea. This would actually provide a 4" ledge along the chair rail. Construction-wise I don't think it would be built the same way as shown in the GIF above, but I think the concept is 1/4" plywood with the rigid fiberglass and then an air gap.

post #227 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Here's an idea I thought of today for those that have fixed racks that are mounted up against a wall. Mount a full size mirror behind it. This will allow you to see where you are reaching when making connections.
post #228 of 3008
Thread Starter 
So assuming I find a way to put my rack outside of the theater. I'm thinking I could use the old rack location in the upper left corner of my plan to build a dead vent. There happens to be a cold air return that services the first floor in the joists above that location. Does it make sense to route the air flow into the cold air return or better to try to route it into the basement in an adjoining room?

I'd hate to start heating the upstairs during the summer if I'm pulling out too much heat...although my basement is usually 5-6 degrees cooler than the upstairs. I'm ok with a little sound leakage into any of the basement rooms but definitely not the upstairs rooms.
post #229 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Still torn on where I'm going to put the equipment rack. If I build it above the rear sub, I may quickly run out of room to put components. I'm sure I could fit them now, but as you guys know, you quickly start adding amplifiers, butt kickers, etc. I'm not sure the extra heat in the room will be an issue since it's typically cooler in my basement. Not sure if the equipment would heat the room up more than 5-6 degrees. But maybe it would if the room is pretty air tight. Some were complaing about noise, but none of my components appear to have any noise to them...the fans to ventilate I guess will add some.


I also tracked down a local company to build my DBox motion platform from aluminum.

Also got a plan to Ted to get my soundproofing budget into the books.

I recently setup my new Onkyo 3008 and wow - it feels like I just went out and bought all new speakers. My existing room is terrible acoustically. A large picture window on one side, high ceilings and the only thing soft is the carpet. After running through the Audyssey, it really made a tremendous difference. I can actually hear the dialog now without having to turn on subtitles. I can only imagine how it's going to sound in a more controlled theater room! The extra speakers really add dimension to the sound space. The high speakers make it sound like there is a big wall coming at you. I'm definitely planning for an 11.2 theater at this point. I realize the 3008 is only capable of 9.2 at one time, but I'll be prepared for the next generation.

Here's a rendering with the rack in the back of the room. I think I'm just going to have to plan for a potential couple locations. Then once I have the outer shell built I can make that decision after I see how the room responsds to the ducts and returns. I can always just put a cabinet and counter inside the room.



Here's a top down view of the latest concept - work in progress as usual:
post #230 of 3008
I'm assuming you're keeping the equipment rack for your whole home items, IE the Russound, your ML Server, the XBoxes, and whatever those other 2 PCs were for. What if you put another full height or even half height rack there for things like your amps, those components that produce more heat and noise. That way, you worry less about handling their heat and noise, and you don't need interaction with them. Reserve the space above the sub for local media devices, like XBox, PS3, or a BR player, and maybe even your Onkyo so you can change volume at the device. That way if you want to pop in a disc, you don't have to go to the closet, but you don't have to worry about the heat and noise put off by an amp and whatever ventilation you'd use for your hotter components.
post #231 of 3008
Thread Starter 
JTR7,

Yes - I'll be keeping my existing home automation rack where it is.
I've thought about just putting all the theater equipment next to that rack but just thought it might be a bit easier with the cable runs if it were closer to the theater. I'd also have to check on the longest runs the DBOX allows if I think the PC will be too far away. Another issue would be I'd have to run cabling through the basement or preplan so I can still plugin my mic for the Audyssey EQ with my Onkyo reciever.

I like your idea though of placing some of the hotter components in the home automation rack. I'm just not sure what hardware I'll add/remove down the road so keeping it together would be a little simpler.

Anyone know how hot those XPA amplifiers get?

I think the XBOX360 is probably the loudest thing component-wise. And that will most likely remain in my home automation rack.
post #232 of 3008
I was suggesting it because then you could use only a half rack above the sub recessed into the wall.

I'd say keep the source devices and the Onkyo in the room (unless you use a matrix to switch some sources like cable boxes. I noticed your existing rack has two so I don't know if you do that or if you use a HTPC whole-home-DVR type setup). So if it's a BR player, a PC, the Onkyo, a power conditioner and a cable box with your amps elsewhere, you should be able to get away with a half height rack.
post #233 of 3008
Been following your thread for a while now. It's pretty much the same layout, size, and look I will be using for my next theater. Keep up the great work of planning and rendering!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

Anyone know how hot those XPA amplifiers get?

They don't get that hot. They get warm, but not hot. I use them to drive my DIY speakers with lower ohm loads and they've never gotten hot to the point I was worried. And I've had them crack for extended periods of times.
post #234 of 3008
I'd be interested to see more of your home automation system, while waiting for the theater of course! I've toyed with the idea of doing some automation (not control, but automation) of my HVAC in both my main house and vacation house (vacation house more by necessity, had an issue with the power in the house last winter that ended in no heat during freezing weather, a storage room converted shower, and a 30k basement remodel). However, I want to incorporate control as well so I'm looking at different control packages.

Can't wait for the theater. Your design is amazing. I really like the simplicity/traditional look.
post #235 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTR7 View Post

I was suggesting it because then you could use only a half rack above the sub recessed into the wall.

I'd say keep the source devices and the Onkyo in the room (unless you use a matrix to switch some sources like cable boxes. I noticed your existing rack has two so I don't know if you do that or if you use a HTPC whole-home-DVR type setup). So if it's a BR player, a PC, the Onkyo, a power conditioner and a cable box with your amps elsewhere, you should be able to get away with a half height rack.

JTR7,
I do have a matrix switch that distributes all the sources to each room. It's pretty cool to play Guitar Hero on the two XBOX 360's and battle with some in the adjoining room - although I hardly get to "play" anymore. Movies are fed from a central server. But I will need a dedicated MLP-1000 (Movie Player) for the theater that will also run the DBOX software to make the first row seats sync to the movie.

deewan,
Quote:


Been following your thread for a while now. It's pretty much the same layout, size, and look I will be using for my next theater. Keep up the great work of planning and rendering!

Thanks. It's been fun, but I'm ready to start seeing something built.
I may add an XPA amp down the road as budget permits. That might help with cooling down the Onkyo Reciever if it becomes an issue. The Onkyo receiver does make some clicking noises during certain remote tasks so it might be nice to keep that one out of the room. It has a serial port so I should be able to automate control of it without a problem and operate it from a remote or touch screen. I'm still deciding on whether to put a dedicated touchscreen in there, use the big onscreen for movie selection or just something like an iPad. I may just put an inwall touchscreen just outside of the theater near the future bar area. That way it can service both the theater and operate the whole house.

Quote:


I'd be interested to see more of your home automation system, while waiting for the theater of course! I've toyed with the idea of doing some automation (not control, but automation) of my HVAC in both my main house and vacation house (vacation house more by necessity, had an issue with the power in the house last winter that ended in no heat during freezing weather, a storage room converted shower, and a 30k basement remodel). However, I want to incorporate control as well so I'm looking at different control packages.

Can't wait for the theater. Your design is amazing. I really like the simplicity/traditional look.

JTR7,
I'd be happy to answer any questions you have regarding the Cinemar home automation and media management solutions. Although, you may need some type of backup generator regardless for power outages. Our system is very ala carte. You start with the basic parts and build off that foundation to control and automate anything and everything.

I had the pleasure of speaking with Ted White this week and started going over how to handle soundproofing the room. I've got some wireframes of how the walls and ceilings will be constructed as well as the soffit mufflers. I will post some images once we have the details nailed down.

I was hoping to build the outer shell first, but that doesn't look like it's going to happen. So I really need to run chases or wire to where I plan to use it.
post #236 of 3008
Thread Starter 
On a somewhat related yet unrelated note, we initially we're discussing building an exterior garage/outdoor covered patio in our backyard, but put that on the back burner until the basement/theater gets done.

Here are some renderings I did for the external garage a while back. I need to plan ahead to make sure I can get wiring to it before I close off the basement in case we ever pull the trigger.




Here's a glimpse of the proposed bar just outside the theater.


post #237 of 3008
I have to ask, what's the story behind the two XBOX 360s in the rack?
The plans are looking great. The subwoofer bumpout in the theater looks pretty small, like it would limit your choices for future upgrades. Have you considered making the "Old Rack Location" into space for an IB array or other large (i.e. horn loaded) sub? Personally I would look at two subs up front to take advantage of corner loading, and a third in the rear of the theater to smooth response.
Also it looks like you have an ideal space to use the foyer as a projection room to take care of fan noise from the projector.

EDIT: Nevermind my ADD, I saw you just replied about the dual xbox's in post 235... Nice setup btw.
post #238 of 3008
Thread Starter 
rader,

Thanks for your comments.
Actually Ghost Recon is a great multiplayer shoot'em up game...but it's even better when each player has their own full screen.

I really don't know anything about IB arrays, so I'd have to do alot more research in that area. Perhaps you can give me the pros/cons summarized and what's involved.

From reading Floyd Tooles book, his research recommended symetrical subs in front and back so I'd have to find a way to fit 4 subs. Which isn't totally impossible if I want to build them into the corners. It's just where do you draw the line. If I did go with four subs, I could put each in the four corners of the room as long as they are fairly small in size.

I wish I could push the projector back that far, but the throw distance is too far.
post #239 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Anyone happen to know if Berkline's 45003 will fit through a 32" door? I had to reduce the door size to make room for the sub in the rear and get it as close to center as possible. It would really stink if I had to sit on the floor after all of this.
post #240 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

Anyone happen to know if Berkline's 45003 will fit through a 32" door? I had to reduce the door size to make room for the sub in the rear and get it as close to center as possible. It would really stink if I had to sit on the floor after all of this.

Certainly will. They will come in two pieces I am told. My door is only 31" and I am assured they will fit through the door. I have not got them yet.
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