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The Cinemar Home Theater Construction Thread - Page 9

post #241 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_B View Post
It's been said before, but I'll say it again. Those renderings are quite amazing.
wow, gotta agree
post #242 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post
Certainly will. They will come in two pieces I am told. My door is only 31" and I am assured they will fit through the door. I have not got them yet.
That's good to know. I didn't want to have to haul one up the stairs to test on a doorway if I didn't have to.
post #243 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainsaw12117 View Post
wow, gotta agree
Thanks very much.
post #244 of 3008
Mario its been a year now since you started this thread when are we going to see some of these renderings come to life and see some construction photo's
post #245 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by W00lly View Post

Mario its been a year now since you started this thread when are we going to see some of these renderings come to life and see some construction photo's

I'm hoping to get started after the New Year assuming I get a few more items nailed down. Starting the theater has led to doing many other unanticipated things like adding back up sumps, generator, wiring, cleaning up existing equip rack, electrical to the upstairs, cleaning out basement, etc.

Unfortunately the next major step is hvac zoning of the basement and adding another trunk line. Which led me to having to plan the entire basement plan. I looked into dampers for each room supply, but it seemed like those could fail and costly. So the hvac guy thought adding a separate trunk with a single damper would be better. I hate to give up ceiling height but not sure what else to do. I may try to see if I can zone the theater though since it will be air tight.
post #246 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

rader,
I really don't know anything about IB arrays, so I'd have to do alot more research in that area. Perhaps you can give me the pros/cons summarized and what's involved.

From reading Floyd Tooles book, his research recommended symetrical subs in front and back so I'd have to find a way to fit 4 subs.

IB's act like essentially act like huge sealed subs, and are usually built in any enclosed area that can act as an enclosure, i.e. closets, sealed screen walls, crawl spaces, attics. They get deeper extension and higher sensitivity as a result of the larger (effectively "infinite") enclosure size. The best recent example is in Moogie's Old Vic thread, where it's built into the baffle wall. IME, the structure it's built into needs to be massive to avoid structural resonance. I built one into an attic before and it rattled the entire house. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned IB's as it may open a whole 'nother can of worms for you...
I wouldn't fret too much about subwoofer placement being a bit off from a theoretical ideal, after all a 80hz wave is still 14ft long. Moving the sub a foot or so shouldn't be a big deal.
post #247 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Thanks rader for the information. But that might be out of the scope of my current plans. I just fear it would end up delaying my whole process in order for me to educate myself more.

Does anyone know if it's a bad idea to place rear surrounds (in my case tri-poles) in the rear corners of the room? It happens to fall in the sweet spot of my ideal listening position Dolby recommendation. It would also allow me to build the columns over the top of a cabinet to hold possible subs in the corners of the room (a total of 4 subs - one in each corner would then be possible). I thought I read it's not a good idea to put surrounds in corners of the room. If it's not a problem, the next question would be should those tri-pole speakers point towards the listener or stay parallel to the rear wall?

It might also allow me to but bass trapping below the rear surround if it ends up being at a 45 degree angle.

EDIT: According to my M&K manual for the SS-150THX surround speakers, when in TriPole mode, "The SS-150THX can be mounted on either the side walls or on the back wall, or even directly in a corner. They can be flush on the wall, on shelves, on brackets, etc. The Tripole's great flexibility makes it very forgiving of room placement that is less than optimum." However, this was written back in 1996.

Ignore the front sub in the front center. There would end up being one sub up front in each corner. The rear surround speakers are positioned where I currently have them positioned and not in the corners.
post #248 of 3008
Seeing as how you have a AVR with Audyssey room correction, you may want to ask in the Audyssey thread those questions about speaker placement. Chris Kyriakakis of Audyssey is a regular contributor in that thread.
post #249 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

Does anyone know if it's a bad idea to place rear surrounds (in my case tri-poles) in the rear corners of the room? It happens to fall in the sweet spot of my ideal listening position Dolby recommendation. It would also allow me to build the columns over the top of a cabinet to hold possible subs in the corners of the room (a total of 4 subs - one in each corner would then be possible). I thought I read it's not a good idea to put surrounds in corners of the room. If it's not a problem, the next question would be should those tri-pole speakers point towards the listener or stay parallel to the rear wall?

It might also allow me to but bass trapping below the rear surround if it ends up being at a 45 degree angle.

I have the rear surrounds in the back corners, in angled cabinets. Another pair in the side walls. They measure (REW) and sound the same, all good. This fig shows the arrangement.
post #250 of 3008
Thread Starter 
johnla,
Great idea.

Roger,
Thanks for your comments. Are yours tripole speakers in the rear?

OK. I think I've decided to put my Theater Rack next to my whole house rack in my storage area.

ADVANTAGES
1) Less heat in theater
2) No equipment lights in theater
3) No possible noise in theater
4) Able to access behind the Theater Rack
5) No need to plan for sophisticated fans in rack
6) Theater Rack will have room for spill over for Whole House Components (Whole House Rack is just about full)
7) I can now use interior wall for light switches and outlets without penetrating the exterior walls
8) Easier to connect any Whole House Equipment to Theater components
9) Should save a few bucks on carpenty and equipment instead of trying to do a built-in rack

DISADVANTAGES
1) Longer cable runs
2) Will need to wire or run extension for Room EQ
3) Further away from Theater if I need to make any adjustments physically

I'm also contemplating removing the center rear sub idea and just planning for four corner subs down the road. Even if I keep the rear columns where I initially planned and just set the subs in the corners I think it would be fine. It would just stink since those would be the only visible speakers in the room. I still need to come up with a rear corner concept that I like assuming rear corner speakers will sound ok.
post #251 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

Roger,
Thanks for your comments. Are yours tripole speakers in the rear?

No, they are 3-way monopoles.
post #252 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Thanks Roger.

I did come up with some designs I do like that will enable me to build the speakers, subs and some bass trapping into the corner. Basically just putting a 45 on the corner and then building the column perpendicular into the 45 angled wall seemed to be the best look. It does throw off the symetrical column design from front to back I had though. I'm planning now for Wide Surrounds (11.2) system, so I need to use another column towards the front to hide those speakers. I'll need to play with the design some more to see if I can come up with something that will work or just resort to putting the columns back to where they were in the rear and just setting the subs on the floor next to the column.



I'm still not sure what I'm going to do for the room lighting. Leaning towards can lights as opposed to sconces.

Here's what I'm thinking:
1) Step Lights
2) Soffit Lighting
3) Back Bar Can Lights (3)
4) Rear Entry Light above door and one towards cabinetry/old rack location (2)
5) Stage Lighting (3 - 5)
6) Possibly light behind screen to reveal the speakers hidden behind
7) Possibly soffit lights along the sides - not sure if I'll need them - would try to splash them on the walls in between the columns

I picked up some LED lighting to test some ideas for the step lights and soffit. Initially I was thinking of just mounting the LED lights just under the step lip but then thought it might also be cool to do something with glass like this image you find in bars for shelving.


Anyone else see this technique done in a theater?
post #253 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Happy New Year to everyone here.

Got some Aura Pro Bass Shakers ordered for the back four seats along with some long cables so I can make sure some components like the D-Box will work over 100'.

Can anyone elaborate on how I should prewire for four sub-woofers? Do I just home run RG6 each sub back to the equipment rack?
post #254 of 3008
This thread is great, I just read thru the whole thing from the beginning.

I know your kinda past it, but I think option D looks best. the divided panels look too "window-ie"



The renders are awesome, but at some point you'll have to start building.
post #255 of 3008
Quote:
Originally Posted by cklinejr View Post

This thread is great, I just read thru the whole thing from the beginning.

I know your kinda past it, but I think option D looks best. the divided panels look too "window-ie"



The renders are awesome, but at some point you'll have to start building.

I agree. This render is my favorite as well.
post #256 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the comments guys. The one main reason I'm leaning towards my other design is because it puts the linacoustic around ear level to the seats. Which I think would be acoustically better. The room is still evolving though...so things may still change.

I've been going back and forth on what to do for zoning heating/cooling for the basement. I think I'm leaning towards dampers (ZoneFirst) in all 28 ducts. This would allow me to zone the house in more than just the first floor and walkout basement. The prior plan was to add a separate trunk line to service the entire basement. This would cut in to some ceiling height which I wasn't too crazy about but limit the number of dampers to only about 4 that could be easily service in case of failure. I'm planning on drywalling the basement ceiling, so I'm a little concerned about what happens when one of these 28 dampers fails. I spoke to someone today that said they rarely fail. I think I could justify spending a bit more with this approach and adding say 4 to 6 zones in hopes of getting some return on my money by hopefully saving on heating/cooling costs over the long run. And at the same time, having a house that is more equally cooled and heated.


Anyone else have experience with ZoneFirst dampers or other brands for that matter?
post #257 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Found some sconces I think I may put on the back walls.



post #258 of 3008
Thread Starter 
So I found out today that my 3D software is capable of importing accurate photometric light files (IES) that some manufacturers provide.

My goal was to figure out how many 3" can lights it will take to provide ample light into the theater.

So I imported what was supposed to accurately reproduce a GE 50ER30 50 Watt Frosted Reflector Flood Lamp and placed 17 of them around the inside permiter of the room in a soffit tray that is just outside the star ceiling. It's rather interesting to see it mimic an actual shape of the light cast by the same bulb. I never knew this information even existed.

After a few test, I was surprised how dark the room was with all seventeen 50 watt floods in the room. So I'm thinking it may not be as accurate as I thought as far as light intensity.

Below is an image of what was produced.


I was able to amp up the light level to 400% and it rendered this image which I think seems more accurate than the first.


Can anyone comment on their own real world examples of how many 3" cans were required to light their room and how many watts each was providing as well as the size of room?
post #259 of 3008
Thread Starter 
A little more progress before the actual build.

Ordered the necessary Middle Atlantic Slim 5 parts to convert my larger 26" depth rack to a smaller 20" depth to match my other rack in my equipment room. Just need to order casters now and a few shelves.

Finalizing the HVAC plans for the entire house. 3 zones up and 1 zone for the basement. The installers I've talked to do not recommend just zoning the theater or even parts of the basement due to the limited number of supplys in the basement. Ductless systems have been recommended but were talking more than I'd want to spend. So my thought is to put the thermostat for the basement in the main entertainment area, then a temperature sensor in the theater. That will give me the option of averaging the two temperatures together if I want through the thermostat. I'll obviously need thermostats capable of being controlled through my automation system so I'm leaning towards Proliphix. They have a new IMT 350 thermostat that looks pretty neat in that it actually tells you how long that zone calls for heat/cooling and the fan. Great for charting usage. The ability to have a web interface to program it is really nice.

I'm thinking moving the component rack out of the theater now is for sure a good thing.

Instead of pushing air into the cold air return, I'll be pulling air from the near the ceiling of the theater to grab the hot air...then push it through a Fantech and exhaust it into the main entertainment area of the basement near the floor. This will hopefully help to balance the rooms to some extent and help heat the basement. I'll just need to run the flex duct through a closet which shouldn't be a problem.

The D-Box system was tested over a 100' cat5 shielded cable and maintained sync with the entire movie. So the distance of the rack shouldn't be an issue. I was told I can go up to 133'.
post #260 of 3008
Thread Starter 
The remaining Middle Atlantic Slim 5 rack parts came in today so I was able to disassemble my 26" rack and convert it to a 21" depth to match my other one. I have about five 26" middle atlantic shelves that I'll be putting up on eBay soon if anyone needs them. That along with the 26" depth Top and Bottom parts. Essentially it's everything but the supporting rails.

post #261 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Still playing around with lighting for the room. Picked up some 6" LED cans from Home Depot that are by far the best dimmable lighting I've seen thus far. Only problem is the cans only come in white...so I'd have to be bold enough to spray them black. They only use 10 watts. This would be a plus for keeping the room cool.

The 3" GU10 cans put out some heat and I could see how having a lot of them would heat the room up quickly.

I'm also testing out some color changing LED strips I picked up. One thought was to run them underneath the room chair rail. But I'd have to put a piece of trim in front in order to hide the lights themselves and diffuse the lights themselves.

I did a quick test using my entertainment center and running the LED strip underneath a lip. Then put some painters tape just in front to diffuse the light. It does cast the light out pretty far into the room. So it might be able to replace step lights or be in addition to them.





Here's where I'm thinking they would run along the side walls. They would continue behind the columns but be hidden.



I'll also definitely want a can spot in the back to be able to turn on when entertaining just so guests don't kill themselves when the room is pitch black.
post #262 of 3008
Honestly, I don't really like the rope light under the chair rail idea. Under steps, sure. I feel like under the chair rail takes away from the really high class feel the theater has right now.
post #263 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Thanks JTR7,

I agree with you. It does cheapen it if you see the individual leds. I think it looks cool if you can diffuse the light enough and cover each led with trim so you don't notice each led and it just appears to be a universal glowing light. My quick hack above doesn't quite do the effect I'm after justice. In the above pic, you can see the leds glowing through the painters tape.

I'm thinking I may be able to accomplish my goal of leaving a light on in the back without distracting from the movie by putting some LED pucks underneath the back bar. That would light the floor up but keep the upper wall dark.
post #264 of 3008
I'll be interested to see how it looks if you do go ahead with it. I think the difficulty is going to be getting the color right, and also getting the brightness right. Too bright is as bad as seeing the individual LEDs I think, because it's not universal, it's below the trim.

I do like the pucks below the bar idea.

When do we get to see some work done in wood and drywall instead of your (admittedly spectacular) renders?
post #265 of 3008
Thread Starter 
JTR7,

The LED strip has a remote that allows you to dim the light down. I was dissappointed to find out that when connected to an Insteon Dimmer module that it didn't work. So I'd have to set the level and forget it. If I plan for outlets in my columns I should be able to add these after the fact. It does have IR control, so I'd have to expose the IR sensor to control it in the room or route it back to the rack. I could use an inline Insteon Relay switch to turn them on/off when required. I'll probably tie the step lights and rear under bar lights to a motion sensor.

I'm still waiting on a bid for the HVAC and I put a call into the framers. So things will hopefully be moving along soon.
post #266 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Ran into a few snags with the HVAC that slowed progress down. Man it's amazing how fast 3 weeks has already gone by. 26 dampers should be getting installed in about a week and a half that should make our home more efficient and hopefully save us more money down the road on heating and cooling. The house will be broken up into 4-5 individual zones. I ended up going with the Arzel Zoning system. Many of the dampers will be installed at the register - so if one fails, it can easily be replaced.

I did do some area patching of the basement walls with hydraulic cement where potential leaks might occur.

Anyone have thoughts of applying Drylock or similar based products? I've heard mixed reports on this.

Also, rather big news, we're expecting another baby this August...so now I've got some serious motivation to get things done before then!

I've got a rough materials list for the lumber together. But with all the snow we have had I've held off on the order. I'm tempted to wait until I know they can drive it around to our walk-out basement. I'd hate to walk 400 eight foot and taller 2x4's down a flight of stairs from our garage. I'm hoping this warm spell will melt some of the 4' drifts around the yard.
post #267 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Our 4 zone HVAC system was installed this week. With the Arzel Evergreen System, it allows you to specify room percentage sizes which adjusts the speed of the blower - conserving energy. This also allowed me to put the Theater on it's own zone even though it's just one room. So I'm pretty psyched about that.

Three of the four Proliphix thermostats are now installed and controllable from my automation system.


I'll be ordering all the lumber and sound proofing from Ted sometime early next week. Let the games begin.
post #268 of 3008
That sounds like it should work pretty good. I am looking forward to seeing your build get off and rolling.
post #269 of 3008
Thread Starter 
Thanks Jon_B. Things are moving slowly. I finished foil taping all the bigger openings on the duct work in the basement and ran a few more cables to service the main floor before things get closed off.

I wanted to recap on raising the lower level of my theater basement floor up by about 5.75" and get any advice here. I hate to throw away that much in the room but it works out that I just don't need an extra step in my design and had them dig a little too deep when pouring the basement.

With that said, my thoughts are to have the builder frame the room walls first then the platform within the walls - but do not connect the platform to the walls. Then put 2x2 PT lumber down on the concrete floor and level. Then put a layer of roofing felt on top of that. Then put 2x4's on top of the roofing felt with insulation in between. Followed by two layers of 3/4" plywood on top screwed down. The raised platform will be roughly 13' x 17'. Everything else like stairs and the stage and theater wall will be built on top of this elevated platform.

Does anyone foresee any mold trapping issues or sound quality issues? Can I take advantage of this large platform as a bass trap?
post #270 of 3008
I used a similar platform design on a media room in the basement of my old house. Long story short, I had some water problems
and eventually had a mold inspector come in. He recommended tearing out the platform and removing the moldy roofing felt. So, based on my isolated experience (I'm not a professional so consider this anecdotal...ymmv) I'll never put an organic product in a location that has a remote chance of getting wet. Ended up redoing the whole room from 4 feet up down to the floor. OUCH!
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