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help connecting 2-way crossover with attenuation

post #1 of 22
12/22/09 at 6:40pm
Thread Starter 
Hello I need some help . . .

I'm building a couple small satellite speakers. One woofer, one tweeter. I've got a 2-way crossover with tweeter attenuation off of Ebay that i thought i knew what do do with. Looking at it now though, I'm confused with what I've got.

I understand the input posts. There are two sets of red/blacks (one on each side, with gold crimps on the ends-black is skinny and red is wider), two gold posts at the top right labeled T+ (wider) and T-(skinnier), and then four wires at the top left (red/yellow/blue/black). The auction stated that the yellow/blue/black wires are for the tweeter attenuation at -1dB/-3dB/-5dB. (what's the other red for?)

My questions are basically how to wire this up? I've got a + and - on each driver, and I know the tweeter will need some attenuating though i dont know how much without trying.

Can anyone clarify this? It must be simple, but I'm a total nOOb.

I appreciate it.


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post #2 of 22
12/23/09 at 7:40am
Thread Starter 
Anyone? I'm desperate. I have them totally built, just need to wire up!
I'm using a HiVi B3N and Dayton ND20.
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post #3 of 22
12/23/09 at 8:17am
I cannot see the traces on the back to verify that what I am about say is true.
You can do that yourself. I'll explain later.

It seems to me that if the manufacturer followed basic color conventions for the wires, then the wiring in the group of wires at the top of the board in the photo you provided would go like this:

Red wire to the (+) positive terminal on the tweeter.
The tweeter's (-) minus terminal would receive one of the other 3 wires, depending on the amount of attenuation desired.

A provision is made on the board for no tweeter attenuation (Tweeter (+) and (-) connections on the board, but no wires are in place, so you would have to provide your own).

Here's a test you can do for verification of my wiring advice:
Use an ohmmeter, or just use your eyes and perform a visual inspection.

Either the Red tweeter wire is connected directly to the Tweeter (+) connection on the board or,
Or else, the Black tweeter wire is connected directly to the Tweeter (-) connection on the board.

Whichever wire has a zero ohms or Direct connection to either of the Tweeter (+)/(-) connections, that wire goes to the appropriate terminal (either red to + or Black to - ).

In other words, one wire goes straight to a tweeter terminal, the other tweeter terminal has a resister in line, before the wire comes off the board.

Hope this helps.

I'll try to hang around for a little while in case you need some clarification.
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post #4 of 22
12/23/09 at 8:20am
PI, I was thinking the same thing.
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post #5 of 22
12/23/09 at 8:25am
Thread Starter 
It's slightly clearer.
I'm confused about the two sets of red/black on either side. . . .
This Xover is supposed to be a 2-way, so I'm not sure on which is the woofer set and what to do with the others. Also a bit unclear on where to measure with the ohm meter. I can take a pick of the back and post in a few minutes.

EDIT: OK i took pics and will get the up in a sec. After taking the board off (i had it mounted already), I saw that the two sets of red and black are labeled on the underside. W1+/- and W2 +/-. So apparently it CAN take two woofers? Even though it's a 2-way? W1 +/- is the set on the right side.

So I should tape off the W2 set, direct wire the W1 set.
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post #6 of 22
12/23/09 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed66 View Post

It's slightly clearer.
I'm confused about the two sets of red/black on either side. . . .
This Xover is supposed to be a 2-way, so I'm not sure on which is the woofer set and what to do with the others. Also a bit unclear on where to measure with the ohm meter. I can take a pick of the back and post in a few minutes.

I'll keep checking in to see the photos of the circuit board.

I actually attempted another explanation of the tweeter connections a momen ago, but I got an error message about an invalid security token.
That explanation is lost in cyberspace.
But, that's okay. It was pretty boring anyway. I nearly put my own self to sleep with it.

If you have a link to more info on the board, that might help. Maybe.
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post #7 of 22
12/23/09 at 8:51am
Thread Starter 
Here ya go:



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post #8 of 22
12/23/09 at 9:00am
Thread Starter 
"The auction stated that the yellow/blue/black wires are for the tweeter attenuation at -1dB/-3dB/-5dB. (what's the other red for?)"
This is whats confusing me now. You mentioned that the terminals labeled T+ and T- would be for a direct connection with no attenuation. It looks like maybe the T+ could be connected, and then one of the attenuation wires connected to the other tweeter terminal? Then what does the red wire (0) do? Would it be like a straight connection to T- with no attenuation? That seems odd.
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post #9 of 22
12/23/09 at 9:15am
Seeing the W1 and W2 on the back with the T is confusing because it makes it look like a 2.5 or 3 way design.
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post #10 of 22
12/23/09 at 9:44am
Great photo. That is all I needed.

As for the woofers--the circuit board has provided for a connection to two woofers.
If you connected two woofers using the wires provided, it would be a parallel connection.
This means, that if you connected two 8-ohm woofers using both sets of wires, it would be wired for 4-ohms.
But, you can use just one woofer and one set of wires.
It doesn't matter which set, because they're the same.

Now for the tweeters--
I'll attempt to re-create the explanation which got lost in cyberspace.
If you were to make a direct connection to your tweeter from the Tweeter + and - connection on the board, you would have no attenuation added in.

If you wanted some attenuation added in, you could insert a resistor in line with the - side connection. This is done for you on the board.

So, if you want no attenuation, use the Tweeter + and - connections.

If you want some attenuation, do not use the Tweeter + or - connection.

For tweeter attenuation, connect the Red tweeter wire to the + terminal on the tweeter.

Which wire you connect to the - terminal on the tweeter depends on how much tweeter attenuation you want.

If you want 1 dB of attenuation, connect the Yellow wire to the - terminal on the tweeter. OR...
For 3 dB of tweeter attenuation, connect the Blue wire to the - terminal on the tweeter. OR...
For 5 dB of attenuation, connect the Black wire to the - terminal on the tweeter.

And, yes it would be best to tape the unused woofer wires, so they can't short to each other or to anything else inside the box. Also, secure them so they won't rattle. Or, just cut them off.

Hope this helps.
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post #11 of 22
12/23/09 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Seeing the W1 and W2 on the back with the T is confusing because it makes it look like a 2.5 or 3 way design.

It's just laid out kind of weird on the circuit board, Penn.

Woofer one + and woofer two + are the same point.
And, woofer one - and woofer two - are the same point.
Just a parallel connection for two woofers.
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post #12 of 22
12/23/09 at 9:59am
Thread Starter 
THANK YOU SO MUCH. I'm going to go wire this up and start testing.
I'll post feedback on the sound either in this thread or in a new one later on.

I REALLY appreciate this!

I'm also going to have a thread on a Rythmik 12" kit here pretty soon. Cab is built and I'm ordering the kit any day.
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post #13 of 22
12/23/09 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PassingInterest View Post

It's just laid out kind of weird on the circuit board, Penn.

Woofer one + and woofer two + are the same point.
And, woofer one - and woofer two - are the same point.
Just a parallel connection for two woofers.

Thanks PI! I wanted to figure it out but I couldnt myself!
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post #14 of 22
12/23/09 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Thanks PI! I wanted to figure it out but I couldnt myself!

You would have gotten it, Penn.
I had to look at it for a little bit, before it became clear to me.

Lightspeed--It looks like you had some chip-out on your woofer cutout.
A real easy fix is to use some epoxy putty.
It comes in a small tube.
You pinch off a piece and roll it around to mix the inner putty with the outer putty in the small piece you pulled off, then press it into place.
It bonds well and cures hard as a rock in an hour. You can then use a dremel or whatever is handy to reshape the affected area.
You can paint over it or veneer over it and nobody will ever know.
You can find epoxy putty in automotive stores and hardware stores.

Your speaker is looking really good. Those are some real nice looking drivers.
I can't wait to find out how good they sound.
I'm also looking forward to seeing your Rythmik 12" build.
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post #15 of 22
12/23/09 at 1:23pm
Thread Starter 
Actually the woofer holes are fine. Thats some speaker putty or whatever you call it squeezing out.

Well, i wired at first with -3dB and knew right away they needed no attenuating. So i direct wired to those two terminals and its better, but still lacking enough that i almost wondered if i had them wired out of phase phase or maybe even a bad connection. They need way more output. The HiVi are working their little butts off.

I think it has something to do with this xover and the impedances of the drivers. This xover has them at 3500, and the HiVi is an almost full range driver. They are 8 ohm and the ND20 is 6 ohm. Wouldn't that make the ND20 louder though?

I can make it all sound fairly decent if i crank the treble knob on the stereo way up and the bass down a bit. Any clues?
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post #16 of 22
12/23/09 at 2:05pm
Okay, I'm glad there's no problem with the woofer holes.

Are you sure the tweeters are producing sound?

Something is certainly wrong.
The woofers are rated at SPL: 81 dB 1W/1m
While the tweeters are rated at 91.5 dB.
The tweeter is 10.5 dB more efficient than the woofer.
So you were right to think that you should need some attenuation on your tweeter. You should.

If the tweeter were wired out of phase with respect to the woofer, you would hear a suck-out in the crossover band--a fairly narrow range of frequencies, because the woofer and tweeter would be playing the same notes, but out of phase with each other.

That is not the problem.
Check your tweeters to see if they are working at all.
One thing you can do is disconnect the woofers and just listen to the tweeters, but only through the crossover board, of course.
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post #17 of 22
12/23/09 at 2:43pm
Thread Starter 
OK. No sound from the tweeters. No sound when they are connected directly to the two gold posts on the board.

SOUND when the Tweeter(-) to gold post(-) on the board and the tweeter(+) connected to the red wire. It sounds full on and way louder than the woofer. But then Tweeter(-) to gold post(-) and tweeter(+) to the yellow wire produces nothing.

I've used the tweeters before so I know they work, and i did get the sound from the once. Oh and I checked them on the ohm meter and it was fine.
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post #18 of 22
12/23/09 at 5:51pm
To avoid risk of damaging the tweeters, temporarily connect to the woofer instead as if it were a tweeter. You should hear mostly high frequencies.

Follow the path of the signal around the board. One wire will be a direct path to the negative terminal. This would be the ground. I see it, it's marked T-

You should be able to trace the positive terminal and follow it to a small capacitor. I can't see any way on the circuit to get to a cap. ???, so below is what I think needs to be done. Be very careful! Check the input with your ohm meter before powering it! I think I've solved this puzzle, but I may be totally wrong.

The red wire next to the yellow one marked -1dB will have a full range signal on it. I suspect that this red wire is to be connected to the black one marked -5dB. This would appear to route the signal through a resistor and then through the capacitor that runs side to side. So IF I'm right, the tweeter connects to the two terminals marked T+ and T-, and the red wire connects to one of the three wires marked -1dB, -3dB, or -5dB. Maybe the intent was to use a 3 position switch to select the attenuation. Is that cap that runs side to side a 4.7 microfarad?

Looks like on the woofer, the signal goes through the coil, then to the woofer. The 6 ohm resistor, and the other cap are shorted across the woofer leads to offset rising impedance. That cap is likely about 6 to 10 microfarad I suspect.
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post #19 of 22
12/23/09 at 6:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbgl View Post

To avoid risk of damaging the tweeters, connect to the woofer instead as if it were a tweeter. You should only hear high frequencies.

Follow the path of the signal around the board. One wire will be a direct path to the negative terminal. This would be the ground. I see it, it's marked T-

You should be able to trace the positive terminal and follow it to a small capacitor. I cant see any way on the circuit to get to a cap. ???

OK this makes sense. I had the T- terminal and the red wire hooked up which gave me full sound on the tweeter. I can now read this board on the backside.

BUT, when you use the tweeter attenuator circuits, you must use the T+ terminal, and then one of the wires. I have it on the blue wire (-3dB) now and it blends so well its hard to tell the tweeter is working, but it is. If you look at the board picture (the back), there is no resistor on the yellow wire (-dB). So it just passes through the capacitor and then no resistor. There are two small holes where one could be insterted . . .if say i wanted to aim for -2dB instead of -1 or -3dB, as long as I cut the trace inbetween the holes.

Thanks so much for all of your help everyone. You're creating a monster.
They actualy sound pretty good now, although I may try these with TG9's and some Morel MDT 12 (I run these on my truck dash, with Dayton rs180's in the doors and a 12"sub).

BTW-funny story. I was running back and forth from the stereo to the shop to do these tweaks, then bring the speakers back to hear them on the stereo. My wife was there for the last 5 trips or so, doing some rare critical listening with me. At the end, I said "OK, one more tweak and I give up for the day". I unplugged the speakers and hooked my PSB's back up instead and turned on KD Lang-engenue (my test tracks) . . . I said "tell me if you hear the tweeters now . . " The look on her face was priceless! HUGE full rich sound. With the little ones sitting on top of the PSB's she couldnt tell where it was coming from. lmao

EDIT: OK I've read kbgl's post more thoroughly and I think you are right about a selector switch. It totally makes sense. I'm going to try connecting to the two terminals and use the red to connect to the others to see what works out. I'll look at the side-to-side cap then also.
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post #20 of 22
12/23/09 at 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed66 View Post

OK this makes sense. I had the T- terminal and the red wire hooked up which gave me full sound on the tweeter. I can now read this board on the backside.

BUT, when you use the tweeter attenuator circuits, you must use the T+ terminal, and then one of the wires. I have it on the blue wire (-3dB) now and it blends so well its hard to tell the tweeter is working, but it is. If you look at the board picture (the back), there is no resistor on the yellow wire (-dB). So it just passes through the capacitor and then no resistor. There are two small holes where one could be insterted . . .if say i wanted to aim for -2dB instead of -1 or -3dB, as long as I cut the trace inbetween the holes.

Thanks so much for all of your help everyone. You're creating a monster.
They actualy sound pretty good now, although I may try these with TG9's and some Morel MDT 12 (I run these on my truck dash, with Dayton rs180's in the doors and a 12"sub).

BTW-funny story. I was running back and forth from the stereo to the shop to do these tweaks, then bring the speakers back to hear them on the stereo. My wife was there for the last 5 trips or so, doing some rare critical listening with me. At the end, I said "OK, one more tweak and I give up for the day". I unplugged the speakers and hooked my PSB's back up instead and turned on KD Lang-engenue (my test tracks) . . . I said "tell me if you hear the tweeters now . . " The look on her face was priceless! HUGE full rich sound. With the little ones sitting on top of the PSB's she couldnt tell where it was coming from. lmao

EDIT: OK I've read kbgl's post more thoroughly and I think you are right about a selector switch. It totally makes sense. I'm going to try connecting to the two terminals and use the red to connect to the others to see what works out. I'll look at the side-to-side cap then also.


I was editting that post for about an hour! Figuring this out from pictures was quite a bit harder than doing so in person.

If the tweeter needs to be padded 8 to 12 dB or so, you will need to add padding resistors on the wiring that goes to the tweeter. The ones on the board will not be sufficient. I would suggest picking up a couple of resistors. The exact values are not critical. I would start with 5 ohms on the positive wire going to the tweeter. Also add a 6 ohm across the leads of the tweeter (Right at the tweeter). This should pad the tweeter about 8 dB or so. If the tweeter is still a bit loud, swap the 5 ohm out with a 6 ohm, and connect a 3 or 4 ohm across the tweeter leads, instead of the 6 ohm. This should pad it about 11 or 12 dB. ( The 4 ohm should be slightly louder than the 3 ohm.) If this reduces the level too much, replace the 3, or 4 ohm with a 5 ohm. If you add these resistors, use the -1dB connection on the crossover board.

If you get to where you want to fine tune the tweeter level, a difference of about a half an ohm is appropriate. If you plan to build more speakers eventually, you will need a good assortment of resistors. I use a lot with values from 2.2 up to 20 ohms. For what you are doing now, you should not need anything outside the 3 to 6 range. Buying 2 each of the following should run about $15. 3, 3.8, 5, 5.5, 6. Only 4 of these will actually be used on this pair of speakers, and the rest will be left over for the next project.
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post #21 of 22
1/6/10 at 2:52pm
Thread Starter 
kbgl - I was looking at this post and just made the connection that you were the same one helping me with both of my speaker projects. I want to thank you for your time and help!!!

While this combo sounds good (the little Dayton and the B3N), I decided to try some new drivers with my recent PartsExpress order. I've got Vifa TG9 in my truck and they are really excellent sounding. I was going to try them in these little speakers anyway for fun.

This is nearly identical to the TG9, and thought I could try it and the TG9s from my truck as they are the same dimensions, frame etc.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...number=299-220

I'll have a heck of a wait for these, but they seemed decent, and they go low for being so small.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...umber=264-1028

Between those and these Morels I have in my truck now, something should work in both locations.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=277-060
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post #22 of 22
1/6/10 at 3:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed66 View Post

kbgl - I was looking at this post and just made the connection that you were the same one helping me with both of my speaker projects. I want to thank you for your time and help!!!

While this combo sounds good (the little Dayton and the B3N), I decided to try some new drivers with my recent PartsExpress order. I've got Vifa TG9 in my truck and they are really excellent sounding. I was going to try them in these little speakers anyway for fun.

This is nearly identical to the TG9, and thought I could try it and the TG9s from my truck as they are the same dimensions, frame etc.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...number=299-220

I'll have a heck of a wait for these, but they seemed decent, and they go low for being so small.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...umber=264-1028

Between those and these Morels I have in my truck now, something should work in both locations.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=277-060

I like Morels, but the Vifa would be my choice on this one.
Get some resistors too to pad the tweeter, or it will be way too loud.

I'd get 2 each of the following, or something close. 6.2 3 4
and 4 each of 5 ohm. Get a few more of random values for future projects. You can never have enough on hand. 8 16 20 50 etc

Here's the vifa at Madisound.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=8354

Your welcome.
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