Radiance & Moome 1080P 72Hz ? - Page 2

Hmmm, but isn't this just another custom resolution that is freely programmable anyway in the Radiance ? I have used or tried 1920x810/817/820/880 with both 48 and 72Hz and it was all very easy to program once I set up excel to calculate the pixel clocks for me - the only downside was that I could only use the Radiance with 8 different resolutions




Thanks for the clarification, it seems that 165+ Mhz clocks or preferably more seem rather far off for a processor that just barely manages to go up to 148.5 MHz.

I liked it when I could increase the total horizontal pixels for 1920 x 1080 59.94 Hz to 2280 or even 2360 with the Vision line, that worked better for most CRT projectors and only requires a pixel clock of up to 159 MHz.

I might consider it , but one question about the gamma, is it adjustable individually for each out put on the radiance or does it adjust it the same for both outputs.

And can you explain this Gamma function a bit more. The problem I am having right now is trying to get the Gamma on Both PJ's to be the same, this is critical for blending., I would not need 1080p@72 since on a blend you run it a bit lower 1064x1080 or 800 depending on aspect ratio your watching.

Athanasios

Gamma is the same for both outputs. To do a "blend" we would of course need separate outputs calibrations, including gamma, for each projector, in addition to the blend function.

The "gamma factor" is how much we change the gamma from input to output. By default our "gamma" in the Radiance is 1.0. That is we want to pass the input unmodifed. Gamma Factor is a course adjustment to adjust for an error in gamma in the display/projecor. If you measured 2.0 gamma and wanted 2.2 you would set Gamma-Factor to 1.1 (=2.2/2.0). You can then use the 11/21 point gamma/grayscale menu to fine tune the gamma.

The 817x1920 at 71.93 is optimized so that a true 1920x1080 source is not scaled. The other resolutions may turn on scaling (not sure). You can check the scaling status on Page 2 of the on-screen info (Press OK twice while the Menu is not active).


As with the Vision series we design the FPGA code so that the "slowest" FPGA, at the lowest supply voltage runs 148.5 MHz while in a warm environment. If you happen to have one of the faster FPGA (a random event), and keep the FPGA cool, it would be reasonable that it might be 20% or more faster than the slowest part in worst case conditions.

This is no different for the Radiance than for the Vision series except there are more gates in the Radiance and so the FPGA will run warmer and have less temperature headroom for overclocking.

Since we have not spent time testing this we do not know how fast the fastest FPGA would actually run.

The issue wasn't actually the 817x1920 resolution or timing it to 72Hz, the Radiance would run it. The problem was that the Radiance did not support 72Hz properly until about a year ago (approximately), and 72Hz support was what I really was pushing for.

Before 72Hz support was added, you could run 72Hz, but there would be tearing and other weird hideous distortions that would pop in and out of the image. After 72Hz support was added, Lumagen also added the 817x1920 72Hz resolution to the presets list.

This is cool because now all you have to do is select 2.35 for the input and output aspects, and you have 1:1 mapping without any further tweaking.

craigr

I never thought you would want to do this in a million years Jim... but I am happy if you try. I bet I'd have some interested clients and I sure am interested for my own rack.

What about intentionally overclocking the chip a little bit and also adding a fan for cooling. Just up the voltage a smidge

craigr

Wow Jim PR in person,

If this does'nt prove Lumagen puts itself at the same level as its customers(ear to the Ground) buy taking the time to interact online in forums such as this proves they care..

By listening to what features some customer would like to see tells us that Lumagen offers the type of service you rarely see in this day and age..

Thus I need to Dich my VP50pro & join the Lumagen team

Cheers...

Dear Craig

do you have any timing settings for these resolutions for screen 3:4 you are willing to share?

I do not make any progress with my setup except 1080p60 who works out of the box very nicely.

many thanks in advance !

big blue

I set up all my resolutions so that I get 1:1 pixel mapping without scaling. Might not be easy though for other users so it is nice to have a preset.





Good to know. Fwiw with the HDP series (HDP and HDQ) I managed to get to 159 MHz with every unit that I tried, those were at least 8 units, all with DVI output.

OK, understood. I never liked the softening of 72 Hz compared to 60 and 48Hz so I only ever tried test patterns and never noticed those distortions

I can only second that. The no-ring scaling alone is priceless and works nicely for both SD and HD sources and it is the reason that standard definition sources are still watchable for me with the Lumagen.

Yeah, I find that many of my EU clients would rather run 48Hz instead of 72Hz. I think this must be because you guys are used to 50Hz PAL and the flicker is not as distracting for you because you grew up watching it that way. Every time I go back to Europe I have to get used to the flicker. It takes me about a month each visit before I can watch a tube without it bothering me.

All but a few of my USA clients can't stand 48Hz and would rather just do 60Hz or 72Hz (if the projector can handle it). Really the only projectors that can do a good job with 72Hz 1080p are the G90 with the upcoming mods that Mike Parker and I have been working on, and 9500LC Ultra with the modern Mike Parker upgrades. Those two options can run with close to zero attenuation on the screen even at 72Hz.

craigr

You're looking for 4x3 aspect ratio scan rates on the output... I have only ever had one client who asked me to do this and I didn't write down timings after it was finished. If Jim pops back in here he'd be better to ask than me.

However, for NTSC I would try 960x1440 active pixels with maybe a total pixel count of about 1005x1700. With a clock of 102407592 you will get 59.94Hz and a clock of 122889111 will yield 71.93Hz.

For PAL I would consider 1152x1440 active pixels with a total pixel count of around 1200x1700. With a clock of 102000000 for 50Hz and a clock of 146733267 for 71.93Hz.

I have a Radiance clock calculator on my web page that you can download and calculate about any clock you need. Here is a LINK. Use the spread sheet to check my work above because I did those calculations really quickly and they might be wrong

craigr

Thank you Craig for your hint, I will give it a try for 4:3 aspect ratio.

As my screen can be horizontally masked and nowadays most of the material is anyway 16:9, shouldn't I consider a new convergence setup for the G90 for 16:9, keeping the same screen wide and reduce height? Would this concept at the end leads to a better result when watching movies with the Radiance?

(excuse me if I post my setup questions here, it is not my intention to distract your 72Hz discussion)

big blue

Would be nice if you could get a Moome or Fury type HDMI adapter to accept 24p and convert to 72p on the analog out. Would solve a ton of problems and make blu-ray with 24p output possible to connect directly to a projector (with the HDMI card of course). Then again that would bet yet another HDMI adapter revision. What would that be, version 4????

The point of doing it in the Fury or Moome would be to avoid hitting that FPGA limit in the radiance. Just have the Radiance output 24p, and configure the Fury or Moome to always triple the framerate when getting 24p. Of course this would complicate the Moome and/or Fury quite a bit. It would basically need to have a frame buffer to do it.

That would be a great feature in the Moome or HDfury series. I'd like to see 1080i 72 and 1080i 96 too. A simple switch for direct/double/triple would be great.

I would definitely pick one of these up, however would you consider a trade in or a board swap for my current RadianceXD?

The CRT projector that I have seen looking best with 1080p 72 in stock condition was the Barco 909. It looked better overall than both the G90 and the 9500 Ultra although I also prefer to use it at 48 Hz.

While Its not A suprise in regards to your above comment seeing the Barco cine 9 & 909 have the highest Bandwidth limit @ 180mhz of any CRT Projector from my understanding.. The G90 has A 130Mhz bandwidth limit..

But I thought the standard 909 does'nt have the color corrected C element(s) like the Cine 9 so I take it that the 909 that you have seen running 1080p @72hz had the Color corrected C elements?..

Cheers..

Lumagen was (and I think still is) running an upgrade program where you can swap your XD for an XE anytime. Of course, you do have to pay for the swap, but it is a good price IMHO. Just send Lumagen an email to find out the details support@lumagen.com regarding the upgrade.

craigr

We probably shouldn't get side tracked with what CRT's can support 72Hz 1080p in this thread. However, I don't think ANY stock projector can fully resolve 1080p 72Hz. I said that the ones that can fully resolve are the G90 with the mods Mike Parker and I have been working on, and the 9500LC Ultra with the latest mods from Mike Parker. I have seen both projectors running with the mods (I have the G90 in my shop and I have seen the 9500LC Ultra in M.P.'s shop). Both can almost fully resolve 1080p 72Hz. The G90 can not fully resolve 72Hz 1080p stock, though it does look ok. The 9500LC Ultra can't come even close to fully resolving without the MP mods, but with the mods it is very good.

I am talking here about using test patterns with 1:1 on off pixels and measuring with an o-scope for attenuation along the signal chain and looking at the resolution on the screen or face of the tube with the test pattern.

The Barco may look ok on screen, but there is no way it will fully resolve 1080p 72Hz as it doesn't have the signal path to fully resolve 1080p 60Hz. I am not trying to bash the projector, but it doesn't have a high enough bandwidth in the signal path to do it. That doesn't mean it won't look good, but fully resolving 1080p 72Hz is another story.

craigr

This is a photo of the G90 running 1080p 72Hz through HDMI that I took while I was helping Moome with the filtration on the version 2 HDMI IFB that he just released. You can download the image by clicking the link below (I didn't want to post it because it is large).

http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/m..._1080p72hz.JPG

craigr

Michael, I have the latest ones for my Blend and compared to the very first HDMI version i have it is much better in all respects, cleaner image, better gamma control( Smaller incremental changes compared to the one i had which I prefer) and the biggest improvement to me the colors, more of them it seams, slight variations in pastels are clearly defined now.

Athanasios

PC cards use full-custom silicon. The FPGA we use is "retargetable-hardware" for which one gives up speed and gains flexability.

The next generation we are working on will use a faster FPGA to gain the speed we need for 1080p72, even 1080p120 for 3D.

BTW: It appears that the bluray 3D spec is 1080p24 times 2, or the equivalent of 1080p48 bandwith. So 3D can be done with a clock rate of equal to or less that 1080p60. The issues will be HDMI 1.4 and source devices and displays that support 3D.

If we did do a 1080p72 special RadianceXE ("if" being the operative word), we would definitely allow you to upgrade your XD. We currently have a XD to XE upgrade program and charge $1500 MSRP for the upgrade. I would charge a premium over this price (not sure yet how much), but you would then also get HDMI 1.3 DD-TrueHD and DTS-Master-Audio.

In that case put me at the front of the queue for a special Radiance XE "if" it comes to fruition.