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HDMI Soundbars & DTS-MA/TrueHD Codecs

post #1 of 13
12/27/09 at 5:38am
Thread Starter 
I've done some reading here, but but not sure if I can answer this myself:

I'm using an HDMI matrix distribution switch to send Blu Ray content to four zones in my home - three of the zones have their own AVR with DTD-MA and Dolby TrueHD decoding, so all is fine there. But the fourth is a TV only (in a kitchen above a fireplace), so the TV is silent when the other zones are listening to these codecs.

I don't think there's a soundbar that will decode DTS-MA and TrueHD input yet - will something like the Yamaha YSP Soundbars with HDMI inputs extract the lossy core streams from the DTS-MA and TrueHD signals automatically if the BR player is set to bitstream? Meaning, I'd like to simultaneously retain the losseless codec support for the three rooms than can decode those formats, and have something like the Yamaha extract the lossy stream for that fourth zone. Or will the Yamaha simply not recognize the audio stream?

Thanks
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post #2 of 13
12/27/09 at 11:56pm
The lossless codecs are backwards compatible with older matrix decoders. Is your question whether that works with bitstream or PCM?

John
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post #3 of 13
12/28/09 at 6:12am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robert View Post

The lossless codecs are backwards compatible with older matrix decoders. Is your question whether that works with bitstream or PCM?

John

Bitstream....

Thanks
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post #4 of 13
12/28/09 at 8:32am
If you are using a single HDMI output that gets split to several devices, I don't think you will have any luck here. The decision making about whether to use a lossless or lossy track happens in the player based on the HDMI handshake. The player outputs lossless because the receiving devices have the needed decoders.

If you send TrueHD to a soundbar without a TrueHD decoder, what would the soundbar be able to do? The companion DD 5.1 track that is part of the TrueHD package for backwards compatibility would still be back on the disc. It is not sent as part of the bitstream.

The same goes for a legacy DTS decoder, which will have no way of extracting the DTS core from a dts-MA bitstream. It's the player that extracts and sends the DTS core to a receiver that lacks the lossless decoder.
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post #5 of 13
12/28/09 at 8:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

If you are using a single HDMI output that gets split to several devices, I don't think you will have any luck here. The decision making about whether to use a lossless or lossy track happens in the player based on the HDMI handshake. The player outputs lossless because the receiving devices have the needed decoders.

If you send TrueHD to a soundbar without a TrueHD decoder, what would the soundbar be able to do? The companion DD 5.1 track that is part of the TrueHD package for backwards compatibility would still be back on the disc. It is not sent as part of the bitstream.

The same goes for a legacy DTS decoder, which will have no way of extracting the DTS core from a dts-MA bitstream. It's the player that extracts and sends the DTS core to a receiver that lacks the lossless decoder.

Well, it's not really a splitter as much as a matrix switch, but I suppose the same limitation applies. I do know the matrix negotiates multiple handshakes to each output device...
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post #6 of 13
12/28/09 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

If you are using a single HDMI output that gets split to several devices, I don't think you will have any luck here. The decision making about whether to use a lossless or lossy track happens in the player based on the HDMI handshake. The player outputs lossless because the receiving devices have the needed decoders.

If you send TrueHD to a soundbar without a TrueHD decoder, what would the soundbar be able to do? The companion DD 5.1 track that is part of the TrueHD package for backwards compatibility would still be back on the disc. It is not sent as part of the bitstream.

The same goes for a legacy DTS decoder, which will have no way of extracting the DTS core from a dts-MA bitstream. It's the player that extracts and sends the DTS core to a receiver that lacks the lossless decoder.


Beat me to it. I was going to say basically the same thing.

If he were to decode in the player he should be fine right? The AVRs that decode lossless would also accept PCM, he could skip the soundbar and his TV should process PCM as well. Provided of course his BRP decodes.

edit: Nevermind, the TV or soundbar would cause the BRP player to send out a downmixed stereo signal. The OP will have to run a separate run of either optical if he chooses the soundbar option or analog if he stays with a TV only.
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post #7 of 13
12/28/09 at 9:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyaspie View Post

Beat me to it. I was going to say basically the same thing.

If he were to decode in the player he should be fine right? The AVRs that decode lossless would also accept PCM, he could skip the soundbar and his TV should process PCM as well. Provided of course his BRP decodes.

Yes, I'm using a Sony BDP CX7000ES changer, so it can decode internally....
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post #8 of 13
12/28/09 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Yes, I'm using a Sony BDP CX7000ES changer, so it can decode internally....

Try that and see what happens.
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post #9 of 13
12/28/09 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyaspie View Post

Try that and see what happens.

Agree. I don't see the advantage of using bitstream (especially in your case), never been able to hear the difference between having the player or AVR decode...

John
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post #10 of 13
12/28/09 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Well, it's not really a splitter as much as a matrix switch, but I suppose the same limitation applies. I do know the matrix negotiates multiple handshakes to each output device...

But, you are still dealing with a single output on the player, yes? If one device on the matrix switch accepts a lossless track and another needs a lossy version, what does the player do? Perhaps it will send the lowest common denominator based on the HDMI handshake. That would be the lossy bitstream. Or, maybe it just reacts to the last handshake. It certainly cannot send both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Yes, I'm using a Sony BDP CX7000ES changer, so it can decode internally....

That would be fine for the AVRs. But, what about the soundbar? Does it accept multichannel PCM? If not, the HDMI handshake would likely produce a stereo downmix that would be sent to all devices.

To the broader issue - it seems like you should feed the kitchen TV/soundbar with a different, non-HDMI output from the player. If you send audio over S/PDIF or analog stereo, the player will handle the conversions itself. But, if you don't have the needed wiring in place, that may not be a viable option.
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post #11 of 13
12/28/09 at 10:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

But, you are still dealing with a single output on the player, yes? If one device on the matrix switch accepts a lossless track and another needs a lossy version, what does the player do? Perhaps it will send the lowest common denominator based on the HDMI handshake. That would be the lossy bitstream. Or, maybe it just reacts to the last handshake. It certainly cannot send both.

That would be fine for the AVRs. But, what about the soundbar? Does it accept multichannel PCM? If not, the HDMI handshake would likely produce a stereo downmix that would be sent to all devices.

To the broader issue - it seems like you should feed the kitchen TV/soundbar with a different, non-HDMI output from the player. If you send audio over S/PDIF or analog stereo, the player will handle the conversions itself. But, if you don't have the needed wiring in place, that may not be a viable option.

I would have to try and run about 85 feet of s/pdif/analog from the player to that zone, so it would be a tad difficult, plus it may complicate audio and video switching in that zone (I've got to download the YSP manual to see how it deals with HDMI video with analog/s/pdif audio...

It seems I'm trying to do the undoable...Perhaps I need to get a small AVR that cand handle the lossless codecs - I should be able to downmix the output to stereo via HDMI (Right?), and then place small bookshelf speakers by the TV (I did run speaker wire to the rear of the TV years ago from the room headend, so it might make this approach a tad easier....)
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post #12 of 13
12/28/09 at 5:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

I would have to try and run about 85 feet of s/pdif/analog from the player to that zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Perhaps I need to get a small AVR that cand handle the lossless codecs - I should be able to downmix the output to stereo via HDMI (Right?), and then place small bookshelf speakers by the TV (I did run speaker wire to the rear of the TV years ago from the room headend, so it might make this approach a tad easier....)

I'm going to assume that the "small AVR" will be by your source and the speaker cable will be 80+ feet. Tough to send a HDMI signal that far...

John
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post #13 of 13
12/28/09 at 5:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robert View Post

I'm going to assume that the "small AVR" will be by your source and the speaker cable will be 80+ feet. Tough to send a HDMI signal that far...

John

Well, no not an HDMI cable of that length....

I have a whole house head end, which is where the HDMI matrix switcher is for shared sources like the Blu Ray Changer, Escient Vision VS-100 server, an Apple TV, and a Tivo. HDMI receive baluns are already at each of the four main zones (carried via dual Cat 6a shielded, varying in length from 50 to 100' - the matrix supports 1080p HDMI 1.3 over dual ethernet up to about 125 feet).

The receiver I'm thinking about would physically be located in the kitchen area, and the HDMI output from the matrix balun would connect to an input AVR (three foot HDMI). Speaker wires and dual output HDMI are already run from this "local" head end in the kitchen to the TV (about 15 feet under the floor and up the wall to where the TV is hanging)

The AVR should downmix the advanced codecs to stereo for this odd application, correct?

Thanks
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