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Burn in on Kuro Elite Pro 111FD - Page 8

post #211 of 248
1/12/10 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by User Tron View Post

Why do you believe that there's something missing? I was bragging my 500A was resistant to BI till last week when I found out that one indicator of Demon's Souls (PS3) is slightly burn in. I have been playing it for about 40 hours with 4 hours max a session (Energy mode 1). Normal tv in between. Before that I never cared about BI because not the slightest hint of it to be seen. That made me careless. Thankfully it's almost gone now but playing Demon's Souls is a no go.

Burn in is permanent. "almost gone" means you had IR. There is a big difference between the two. Please Google the two terms and educate yourself on the differences.

Something is missing because I know the settings he has been using and time stated this material was on his display doesn't add up to what will cause burn in on a 9G Kuro based on my knowledge of how the 111FD works on a driver/phosphor, cell level.
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post #212 of 248
1/12/10 at 7:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Burn in is permanent. "almost gone" means you had IR. There is a big difference between the two. Please Google the two terms and educate yourself on the differences.

Something is missing because I know the settings he has been using and time stated this material was on his display doesn't add up to what will cause burn in on a 9G Kuro based on my knowledge of how the 111FD works on a driver/phosphor, cell level.

honestly the only thing i can think of that might have caused this was putting fox on pause for about 45 min to an hour once or twice. My last resort will be pixel protector blu ray which I am still waiting for. I assume everyone on here can clearly see the channel 5 logo? I showed a coworker of mine and they could not see it until i pointed it out.
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post #213 of 248
1/12/10 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Burn in is permanent. "almost gone" means you had IR. There is a big difference between the two. Please Google the two terms and educate yourself on the differences.

Something is missing because I know the settings he has been using and time stated this material was on his display doesn't add up to what will cause burn in on a 9G Kuro based on my knowledge of how the 111FD works on a driver/phosphor, cell level.

Every single firing of a subpixel causes a permanent erosion. With BI you are normally not able to even out the "age" of the pixels eg. phosphor. Everything that does not go away within a few hours is BI even people claim it's IR. The electrical charge of IR doesn't stay that long.
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post #214 of 248
1/12/10 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by User Tron View Post

Every single firing of a subpixel causes a permanent erosion.

Exaggeration

Quote:


With BI you are normally not able to even out the "age" of the pixels eg. phosphor.

I think we get that.

Quote:


Everything that does not go away within a few hours is BI even people claim it's IR.

Wrong.

Quote:


The electrical charge of IR doesn't stay that long.

Please lookup the definition of IR and what causes it. Residual wall charge is only one source of IR and is not relevant to Kuros based on their panel design.
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post #215 of 248
1/12/10 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akadennis View Post

Not the best pic, taken with a camera phone. if u look closely towards the middle of the pic you can see the channel 5 logo.

What does it look like when a picture is being displayed (possible to provide a couple)? One thing I would definitely not do is try some experimental method of burn in as suggested above. As it looks right now it's probably tolerable but by taking advice from someone that has no experience you could end up totally ruining the picture.
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post #216 of 248
1/12/10 at 10:35am
Just to add some info on a question asked earlier:

Why does a full white screen get rid of long lasting Image Retention?

Firstly, pixels can communicate with other pixels. In other words, each pixel in a Plasma display is not completely sealed off from other pixels. In fact, if they were, the panel could not operate properly. The reason is due to the "priming effect" which I won't get into.

Secondly, high energy discharge of Xenon/Neon gas under high voltage creates high energy ions which impact the walls of the cell. This impact sputters away some of the Magnesium Oxide material from the walls of the cell and that material then reforms wherever it comes into contact with a solid surface. This creates two types of strong (semi-permanent) IR.

1 - If the material reforms on top of the phosphor then the phosphor will emit less light as it cannot absorb as much UV radiation.

2 - The material itself is essential in determining the cell efficiency. When it is sputtered and reformed onto adjacent cells, the efficiency of the cells can change causing a drop in brightness for that cell which lost material and a rise in brightness for the cells that gained material. This is called halo-type IR.

A full white screen causes all pixels to begin to sputter Magnesium Oxide. And because each pixel is open to adjacent pixels, the material over time will evenly spread out across the entire panel (takes a long time) eliminating the IR.
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post #217 of 248
1/12/10 at 11:07am
so wouldn't it be a good idea to break in a plasma with full brightness/contrast white screeen?
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post #218 of 248
1/12/10 at 11:11am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVJunkie2010 View Post

What does it look like when a picture is being displayed (possible to provide a couple)? One thing I would definitely not do is try some experimental method of burn in as suggested above. As it looks right now it's probably tolerable but by taking advice from someone that has no experience you could end up totally ruining the picture.

I will try to take some pics while a picture is being displayed. I only have a cameraphone. It will have to be tolerable because I don't see myself replacing it. It's hardly noticeable when a picture is being displayed, sometimes I would notice it when it's a bright scene.
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post #219 of 248
1/12/10 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Just to add some info on a question asked earlier:

Why does a full white screen get rid of long lasting Image Retention?

Firstly, pixels can communicate with other pixels. In other words, each pixel in a Plasma display is not completely sealed off from other pixels. In fact, if they were, the panel could not operate properly. The reason is due to the "priming effect" which I won't get into.

Secondly, high energy discharge of Xenon/Neon gas under high voltage creates high energy ions which impact the walls of the cell. This impact sputters away some of the Magnesium Oxide material from the walls of the cell and that material then reforms wherever it comes into contact with a solid surface. This creates two types of strong (semi-permanent) IR.

1 - If the material reforms on top of the phosphor then the phosphor will emit less light as it cannot absorb as much UV radiation.

2 - The material itself is essential in determining the cell efficiency. When it is sputtered and reformed onto adjacent cells, the efficiency of the cells can change causing a drop in brightness for that cell which lost material and a rise in brightness for the cells that gained material. This is called halo-type IR.

A full white screen causes all pixels to begin to sputter Magnesium Oxide. And because each pixel is open to adjacent pixels, the material over time will evenly spread out across the entire panel (takes a long time) eliminating the IR.

Thanks. This makes sense, finally.
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post #220 of 248
1/12/10 at 11:21am
I can abuse my 151 like a red headed step child and see no ill effects. I will say though with my 111 I too had IR early on rather easily I thought. It was surprising to me. From playing Madden on it. My display is fine now but I just thought it was surprising. I've yet to open the ISF modes on the 111 I must admit but I DEFINITELY don't have it anywhere near torch mode nor did I.
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post #221 of 248
1/12/10 at 6:34pm
Sorry to hear about the BI Op. I figured it was permanent as you could see it on a white screen, regular viewing.

I would be pissed and contact pioneer and be relentless for a exchange under warranty.
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post #222 of 248
1/12/10 at 6:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I would be pissed and contact pioneer and be relentless for a exchange under warranty.

This might work since its not a wide spread issue.
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post #223 of 248
1/12/10 at 8:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROMAN O View Post

This might work since its not a wide spread issue.

according to the warranty page that was included with this tv it does not cover burn in. i will call though and see what they say
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post #224 of 248
1/13/10 at 1:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akadennis View Post

according to the warranty page that was included with this tv it does not cover burn in. i will call though and see what they say

I'd be very interested in what they say in that I have burn in ( or IR ) on my 111 as well. No static images left on screen. Just that dammed MSNBC banner on top with no orbiter engaged.
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post #225 of 248
1/13/10 at 3:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by akadennis View Post

I will try to take some pics while a picture is being displayed. I only have a cameraphone. It will have to be tolerable because I don't see myself replacing it. It's hardly noticeable when a picture is being displayed, sometimes I would notice it when it's a bright scene.

I tell u now that i know it's there I see it more and more with regular content. I will try and post some pics later
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post #226 of 248
1/13/10 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akadennis View Post

according to the warranty page that was included with this tv it does not cover burn in. i will call though and see what they say

It depends on how you approach them, be nice and tell them you want a tech to come out and look and you were very careful with the unit. If you need any help pm me.
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post #227 of 248
1/13/10 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akadennis View Post

I tell u now that i know it's there I see it more and more with regular content. I will try and post some pics later

I first noticed my burn in about 4 weeks ago and it has finally started to fade a bit which is encouraging.
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post #228 of 248
1/14/10 at 7:37am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumba View Post

I first noticed my burn in about 4 weeks ago and it has finally started to fade a bit which is encouraging.

how are you getting it to fade away?
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post #229 of 248
1/14/10 at 9:10am
i think that if you've watched enough foxnews to burn in to your screen, you may have deeper problems than just a logo on your plasma!

but seriously, i'm thinking of getting the newer model of this box, how big a problem is burn-in on plasma? i'd be uprading from LCD and havent experienced any issues thus far...
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post #230 of 248
1/14/10 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amallomar View Post

i think that if you've watched enough foxnews to burn in to your screen, you may have deeper problems than just a logo on your plasma!

but seriously, i'm thinking of getting the newer model of this box, how big a problem is burn-in on plasma? i'd be uprading from LCD and havent experienced any issues thus far...

Just vary up your viewing habits (ie don't watch the same channel nonstop with a static logo for the life of the set, don't leave the screen paused for hours on end, if used as a htpc don't leave icons on the desktop/do autohide taskbar/set background to slideshow with quick turnover and don't use it exclusively for that purpose and you should be fine). Basically plasma are designed for showing video first and foremost, same as a tube TV. Keep that in mind and you should be ok.

Also, turn on orbiter. There's very minimal PQ loss and whatever the naysayers claim about it, it was designed for a reason. Most people who's had bad IR/BI with Pioneers (at least that I've read on these forums) had orbiter disabled. Maybe their viewing habits were also to blame, but it's irresponsible to claim orbiter does nothing. If it did nothing, they wouldn't include it as an option.
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post #231 of 248
1/14/10 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akadennis View Post

how are you getting it to fade away?

It just seems to be happening on its own. I initially tried using the the video pattern several times to no avail. Then ran Evangelo's break in DVD for hours with no results either. So I've just been watching the set for the last couple of weeks and it seems to be slowly fading a bit. As I mentioned the culprit was the white MSNBC banner on the top of their programming. So now I watch that station in Zoom so the banner is off the screen. At this point I'm not convinced that the IR will go away completely but I think I can live with it.
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post #232 of 248
1/14/10 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amallomar View Post

i think that if you've watched enough foxnews to burn in to your screen, you may have deeper problems than just a logo on your plasma!

...as opposed to MSNBC? Just kidding.
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post #233 of 248
1/14/10 at 2:00pm
The problem with using a full white screen to remove severe IR is that the discharge is relatively weak (thanks to the ABL) compared to the discharge that created the IR in the first place.

And the problem with using a scrolling pattern is that the pattern spends too little time over the affected area with IR.

As a result both methods take way too long for those who are impatient. It would be much more entertaining to just watch full screen programming (without the offending logo).

Note: (below is not a recommendation but rather a description of an IR removal process I am going to try on an old Plasma at work here that has severe IR)

I created a jpeg with a black background and a pure white circle (255) directly over the offending IR and then a gradual gradient all the way to black (about 1/3 of the screen) in a radial burst pattern projecting outward from the IR area. This should dramatically speed up the removal of IR by avoiding the ABL and also prevent any visible burn-in by avoiding sharp borders (IR) from developing by using a radial burst gradient pattern.

Hopefully, this method should speed up the IR removal process by an order of magnitude but is risky and will require monitoring for non-uniformity in full screen luminance every hour or so.

NOTE: This theoretical (unproven) method is not recommended!!!!
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post #234 of 248
1/14/10 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

The problem with using a full white screen to remove severe IR is that the discharge is relatively weak (thanks to the ABL) compared to the discharge that created the IR in the first place.

And the problem with using a scrolling pattern is that the pattern spends too little time over the affected area with IR.

As a result both methods take way too long for those who are impatient. It would be much more entertaining to just watch full screen programming (without the offending logo).

Note: (below is not a recommendation but rather a description of an IR removal process I am going to try on an old Plasma at work here that has severe IR)

I created a jpeg with a black background and a pure white circle (255) directly over the offending IR and then a gradual gradient all the way to black (about 1/3 of the screen) in a radial burst pattern projecting outward from the IR area. This should dramatically speed up the removal of IR by avoiding the ABL and also prevent any visible burn-in by avoiding sharp borders (IR) from developing by using a radial burst gradient pattern.

Hopefully, this method should speed up the IR removal process by an order of magnitude but is risky and will require monitoring for non-uniformity in full screen luminance every hour or so.

NOTE: This theoretical (unproven) method is not recommended!!!!

Interesting concept and nice that we can have someone with your knowledge and expertise perform the trial on a panel that has little value any more. We have people on here with no experience with plasmas making all sorts of wild suggestions at the expense of an owners panel. Definitely keep us posted during the process and I suggest you you start a new thread once you start the process.
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post #235 of 248
1/14/10 at 5:25pm
I wonder if it would be better to alternate the above screen with a completely black screen?
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post #236 of 248
1/15/10 at 10:22am
Thread Starter 
I finally received my pixelprotector blu ray and ran the screen washes as suggested. the first one for 8 hours, the second for 2 hours and the 3rd for 1 hour. For a second I actually thought it was gone until I did the 3rd washer which is just a white screen. There it was clear as day :-( I emailed the company where I got the DVD to see if they have any suggestions on how to use the DVD, setting, frequency etc.
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post #237 of 248
1/15/10 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by akadennis View Post

I finally received my pixelprotector blu ray and ran the screen washes as suggested. the first one for 8 hours, the second for 2 hours and the 3rd for 1 hour. For a second I actually thought it was gone until I did the 3rd washer which is just a white screen. There it was clear as day :-( I emailed the company where I got the DVD to see if they have any suggestions on how to use the DVD, setting, frequency etc.

bummer - keep us posted
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post #238 of 248
1/15/10 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by akadennis View Post

I finally received my pixelprotector blu ray and ran the screen washes as suggested. the first one for 8 hours, the second for 2 hours and the 3rd for 1 hour. For a second I actually thought it was gone until I did the 3rd washer which is just a white screen. There it was clear as day :-( I emailed the company where I got the DVD to see if they have any suggestions on how to use the DVD, setting, frequency etc.

what is a pixel protector bluray. Would it help with new tv break in? where to get it?
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post #239 of 248
1/16/10 at 4:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumba View Post

bummer - keep us posted

Only patience & watching full screen content may cure what ails the OPs TV.

2 years worth of displaying the FOX unfriendly PDP station logo may take much longer than 2 weeks of operation to make the after image go away.

Only time will tell, but if the IR remains (is permanent) then despite the almighty break-in DVD/slides hysteria; caveat emptor.
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post #240 of 248
1/18/10 at 6:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

Only patience & watching full screen content may cure what ails the OPs TV.

2 years worth of displaying the FOX unfriendly PDP station logo may take much longer than 2 weeks of operation to make the after image go away.

Only time will tell, but if the IR remains (is permanent) then despite the almighty break-in DVD/slides hysteria; caveat emptor.

unfortunately for me i have no patience. i am so tempted on buying another TV. The only thing that is preventing me is all the money I paid for my Kuro ($4000). Anyone interested in buying a Kuro Elite Pro 111FD with a slight case of IR? Best offer. I am in the NYC area. I will even throw in the pixel protector Blu ray that according to the web site should cure my problem with time.
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