What is the best way for me to calibrate for 100% home theater?

Use the Audyssey MultEQ XT, then when it's finished, manually reset the speakers to Small/80 Hz. You'll have the benefit of Audyssey plus the benefit of Bass Management.

Craig

+1

I thought Audyssey Multi was the best thing since sliced bread. Why does it set his speakers, sub and crossover that way?

Well, if you look at the specs for his speakers, they ARE pretty capable on the low end, so it is not really that surprising. Add in some room gain and it is very possible that Audyssey measured a very low -3dB point for his speakers. But the exact cutoff frequency that is used to determine whether to set a speaker to SMALL or LARGE is dictated by the manufacturer, not by Audyssey. And it can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Audyssey simply 'reports' the results of its measurements. One manufacturer may use 60Hz as the low-end -3dB cutoff for SMALL while another manufacturer uses 40Hz. Ultimately, whether one wishes to accept the settings assigned by the AVR is up to the end-user.

Audyssey will measure and determine crossover based upon the best judgement of the folks who designed the Audyssey ... no slouches, btw. Yes, you can go back and set the crossover where you want it. None-the-less, I view this as a basic fault in the Audyssey design. I would prefer that at the end of the calibration would create two profiles: (1) the way you wanted it ie, your crossover setting; and, (2) the way the Audyssey lads thought it should be done.

Actually, Dennis, Audyssey doesn't "set" the crossover. Audyssey measures the in-room response of the speakers and *reports* it to the receiver or pre/pro. The receiver/pre/pro manufacturer decides whether the speakers are Large or Small based on the information reported by Audyssey. Onkyo and Denon and several others used to use 80 as the cutoff for the "Large" setting, with any speaker with *any* response below 80 Hz being set to Large. This is definitely not appropriate and Chris has recently gotten them to change their settings. Denon has gone to 40 Hz, Onkyo to 60 Hz. In any event, Chris K. has long suggested that, if the speakers are set to "Large" by the receiver, they should be reset to "Small" by the user, and the first crossover point that comes up is the recommended crossover.

He has also stated that the crossovers can be raised, but he discourages lowering them. Lowering requires boost below the -3 dB point, and Audyssey won't apply boost. Therefore, if you lower the crossover, you loose Audyssey correction below the suggested crossover.

Chris has been telling the manufacturers to always default to "Small" settings with crossovers, but so far, none have accepted that advice, (that I know of, anyway.)

BTW, lest you "blame" this on Audyssey, the manufactuers are only licensing Audyssey, not Bass Management. It's up to the receiver manufactuers to decide how to implement the Audyssey findings into the Bass Management schemes. Audyssey can make suggestions, but it's up to the manufacturers to follow them.

Craig

Really?

Thanks for the info Craig. I'll add that tidbit to my list of things fundamentally wrong with Audyessy implementations in receivers and pre/pros.

I'm not an expert on Audyssey, but my understanding is that among other things is provides EQ to help remove room modes. If you change the crossover setting after running Audyssey won't that mess up the low frequency EQ (since sound that was coming out of the mains is now coming from the sub - hence perhaps changing excited room modes)?

Rather precisely the point. While modal response is part of the issue, there are other factors as well. These would include:

1. Modal response is sensitive the speaker location. Since the main speakers and the subwoofer(s) cannot occupy the same space at the same time, modal response will change with a change in the crossover.

2. The FR of the main speaker (from, say, 80Hz to 40Hz ... just for example), would be unlikely to exactly match the FR of a subwoofer (or subwoofers) within that same frequency range hence changing the crossover will change response at the listening position(s). It would be better if Audyssey first measured the FR of each speaker and then provided a recommendation. The user would then need to accept that recommendation or select another value. At that point, calibration would be set and filters constructed.

3. Audyssey, in general, has difficulty (and no mechanism for) dealing with multiple subwoofers. In this case, I note the Audyssey built into Denon, Onkyo, etc. To do this properly, the pre-pro/receiver would require mutliple (say four) dedicated subwoofer outputs.

However, the greatest service that Audyssey has done within the consumer sector is two fold: (1) it has put people on notice that audio needs to be calibrated; and, (2) calibration WILL change the sound at the listening position(s).

You have several serious misconceptions about Audyssey. You need to talk with Chris directly for a better understanding of how it works. Otherwise, you may be passing bad information on to your clients and the people in this forum.

...and what would those misconceptions be (as applies to the Denon/ONkyo implementation)?

Well, your first misconception is that Audyssey has any control over how Denon and Onkyo implement the code that they license from Audyssey. It has already been pointed out to you that your statements about Audyssey selecting crossover points is false. Same thing about Audyssey handling multiple subs. Audyssey is fully capable of correcting multiple subs. Some of the newer products allow it to do so. But again, it is up to the manufacturer to choose how they implement and use the code. As a professional installer, I would expect you to do the research and understand the basics of the products you endorse/malign.

I have no interest in arguing with you. You need to go to the source to get your facts straight.

Ah, been to the source. No arguments here, just simple statements.

1. While the manufacturer sets the crossover (actually determines Large/Small and applies what the manufacturer in their opinion believes is best for the consumer), the fact would remain, low frequency response of the room would change due to a consumer changing that cross over AFTER the filters have been built and applied. Therefore, my suggestion of : It would be better if Audyssey first measured the FR of each speaker and then provided a recommendation. The user would then need to accept that recommendation or select another value. At that point, calibration would be set and filters constructed.

2. To my knowledge, the current limitation is two sub woofers which have some very specific positional requirements for the calibration to work properly. (Stand alone Audyssey products are not as limited.) Therefore, the statement: Audyssey, in general, has difficulty (and no mechanism for) dealing with multiple sub woofers. is correct with the parenthetical comment removed. I would however argue the "multiple subwoofer" mechanism within the Denon implementation is so limited its true value is questionable and hence my position "no mechanism"...perhaps "limited mechanism" would have been a better choice of words

Now, if you'd step back from the discussion, let's look at the Large/Small "low pass filter" point. The consumer sets 80Hz on their pre-pro. The consumer runs the full suite of measurements, and then "stores" or "saves" the calibrated results. The consumer then sees the "cross over" (or low pass filter) has changed from 80Hz to whatever. That changed as a result of the product, "Audyssey" being run on the Pre-pro. It's rather a nit, isn't it, as to whether the company "Audyssey" and their software made the change, or the manufacturer caused the change to be made as a result of the consumer executing the "Audyssey" process. The unfortunate side effect of this, is the consumer cannot override, or change, this process and doesn't understand the side effects of changing the Low Pass Filter (or cross over) post filter installation. As far as the consumer is concerned, "Audyssey" did it and they would be 100% correct.

Dennis, you're really going out in left field here. Audyssey measures each speaker individually, so the particular modal response of that particular speaker's location is characterized and the correction filter is specific for the speaker, not a combined multi-speaker approach that would vary based on the xover points.


This is absolutely not true at all. First, as with your previous strangely accusatory and negative comments, you are blaming Audyssey for something over which they have absolutely no control. Audyssey does not make AVRs. Most all AVRs don't have multiple subwoofer outputs, so there's nothing to overcome this limitation with multiple subwoofers except to use other products like stand-alone Audyssey EQ units that can handle more speakers/subs. OR, to use an AVR that actually does have multiple subwoofer outputs.

So, to return to your quote: "To do this properly, the pre-pro/receiver would require mutliple (say four) dedicated subwoofer outputs." You mean for instance the Denon 5308 which has 3 subwoofer outputs, each of which are individually handled by Audyssey if you connect multiple subs, exactly in the way you describe? This is a decision by the AVR manufacturer (Denon), not Audyssey.

Have you ever even used Audyssey Dennis? Your statements in this thread seem to imply that you have not.


Audyssey is significantly more than mere speaker level calibration.

Dennis,

I decided to go back to the source myself. Here is his response.

"1. While the manufacturer sets the crossover (actually determines Large/Small and applies what the manufacturer in their opinion believes is best for the consumer), the fact would remain, low frequency response of the room would change due to a consumer changing that cross over AFTER the filters have been built and applied. Therefore, my suggestion of : It would be better if Audyssey first measured the FR of each speaker and then provided a recommendation. The user would then need to accept that recommendation or select another value. At that point, calibration would be set and filters constructed."

That's what MultEQ already does. It first measures the response of each speaker and then provides a recommendation. In the consumer version of MultEQ, the recommendation is the measured -3 dB point of the speaker. In the Pro version of MultEQ there is additional analysis that looks at the acoustical blend of each speaker and sub and the recommended crossover frequency is the one that provides the smoothest response at the transition.

"2. To my knowledge, the current limitation is two sub woofers which have some very specific positional requirements for the calibration to work properly. (Stand alone Audyssey products are not as limited.) Therefore, the statement: Audyssey, in general, has difficulty (and no mechanism for) dealing with multiple sub woofers. is correct with the parenthetical comment removed. I would however argue the "multiple subwoofer" mechanism within the Denon implementation is so limited its true value is questionable and hence my position "no mechanism"...perhaps "limited mechanism" would have been a better choice of words."

I don't understand this comment. If the manufacturer gives Audyssey access to each subwoofer individually (as in the Denon 5308, AVP1, and recent Onkyo models) then MultEQ will measure each one individually and apply delay, level, and room correction filters for each sub. In the case of the AVP1 it does so for all three subs.

If the manufacturer doesn't provide us individual access to the subs then the only thing one can do is to measure the summed acoustical response and try to correct it. There are some things to do beforehand that help: (i) time align the subs by placing them at equal distance from the listening position and (ii) level align the subs. Then run MultEQ for best results.

"Now, if you'd step back from the discussion, let's look at the Large/Small "low pass filter" point. The consumer sets 80Hz on their pre-pro. The consumer runs the full suite of measurements, and then "stores" or "saves" the calibrated results. The consumer then sees the "cross over" (or low pass filter) has changed from 80Hz to whatever. That changed as a result of the product, "Audyssey" being run on the Pre-pro. It's rather a nit, isn't it, as to whether the company "Audyssey" and their software made the change, or the manufacturer caused the change to be made as a result of the consumer executing the "Audyssey" process. The unfortunate side effect of this, is the consumer cannot override, or change, this process and doesn't understand the side effects of changing the Low Pass Filter (or cross over) post filter installation."

This argument would be valid if MultEQ looked at the crossover setting that the consumer made prior to running the calibration. But, it's irrelevant what the consumer does in the pre-pro prior to running MultEQ because these settings are completely ignored. Changing the crossover after running MultEQ is the only time it matters.
__________________
Chris

Whether you agree with Chris's answers/approach or not, the point is that there is a lot that Audyssey does that is misunderstood by many people. I sure don't claim to be an expert on it. But Chris is always willing to help explain (until things become proprietary) how it does work no matter how many times the same question is asked.

That's what happens. Why an entirely new set of filters? Each speaker is handled separately.


Your knowledge is mistaken here.


There is no problem to change the xover point post-measurement. The xover is already changed post-measurement obviously. Your accusation here makes absolutely no sense. Whether the receiver decides to choose 80hz or you manually decide to choose 80hz or 60hz or whatever, it's exactly the same thing. I fail to see how there is any difference between these two things at all. That's because there isn't any difference between them.

No. Short answer: That's not how Audyssey works. (I don't really know the long answer.) I used to wonder this, too, and my queries were answered in the Audyssey thread. After you raise the crossover setting (or even apply it, anew) you do not have to re-run Audyssey. Audyssey remembers the filters necessary for each individual speakers' (and subs') full range of response no matter what sort of cutoff setting is applied to any particular channel.



No. Again, that's not how Audyssey works. It doesn't work like a conventional EQ so you can't think of it that way.



Not really. Having multiple subs with only a single sub out presents a unique situation whether you have Audyssey or not. But Audyssey CAN handle multiple subs. It simply treats them as a single bass source. As pointed out in one of the posts above, there are things you can do prior to running Audyssey to optimize the results. But even if the subs are not time-aligned or level-matched (or gain-matched) prior to running Audyssey it can still calibrate and EQ the subs.

In the low frequency domain, if you change the LPF or crossover, you've changed the location of the source(s) of LF signals. Changing the location of the LF signals in a small room will change the interaction of the low frequency sources and therefore change LF room response which then would require subsequent changes to the applied EQ. I think what others are trying to express perhaps, is Audyssey has applied its magic to the full range of every speaker (in other words, its done its magic on the full output range of a sub). Thus, if the LPF moves up (from say 60 to 80Hz), then that applied Audyssey magic is already in place (rather a waste of filters, but ok). This however doesn't allow Audyssey to present the best case scenario.

Based upon my own experimentation (and measurements using a Denon AVP-A1HDCI) the Audyssey implementation:
1. doesn't seem to account for the interaction of multiple subs ... or utilize the potential of the interaction to resolve modal issues (in a particular case, Audyssey did fine with two subs taken individually; but, when taken together they solved a 50Hz peak but with an entirely different EQ...Audyssey didn't do this AND coupled with the manufacturer mucking with the LPF (crossover) would have been totally negated had they been applied;
2. doesn't do well at all in situations where the -3dB point of the subs are different;
3. In setting the LPF point, the Denon implementation (taking into account Denon wanting to muck with the process) fails to account for the case where the sub woofer's response above 40Hz (40Hz to 60Hz) provides better room response than the three mains (which have -3dB below 40Hz).


Exactly.

All that being said, I believe their DSX product is a great direction and would like some time with it. At the same time, I'd prefer it be x.4 and provide for additional side surround speakers for cases where rooms have more than two rows. That may not be viewed as a cost effective market for them at this time.

In any case, Audyssey is an excellent tool for the consumer to get better sound without trying too hard. In my case, it is too limited.

I used to think the same way about it but was shown that I was wrong.

Only because you don't understand how to use it.

Can you point me to your discovery? I'd be interested in your experience in this regard.


That may be true.


That comment is uncalled for.

Post edited.

I wonder what the effect of changing the crossover after running Audyssey is. Since you are in contact with Chris, maybe you could ask him?

Seems to me if you are going to run and trust Audyssey you might be better off leaving it with whatever it determines.

It would be interesting to run Audyssey, measure the room, change the crossover then measure the room again (I'd do that if I had an Audyssey capable receiver). It seems unlikely you would get the best room response if you let Audyssey determin the settings first, then changed one of those settings. But like I said I'm no expert on it.

All you need to do is post your question in the Audyssey thread and Chris will respond. That is what I did.

OK thanks. I'll do that before I buy an Audyssey capable receiver.